Post/Author/DateTime	Post
POPE 08-29-03, 06:12 PM	Are there really any? Is there anything out there that can stand toe to toe witha dragon? Anything [short of fiends and celestials] that ca match these creatures in terms of pure power? What can threaten a dragon? Any ideas or suggestions? I need 3 would like as many as 6.
sandskimmer 08-29-03, 06:19 PM	Lich Demilich Dracolich any 30th+ level characters other dragons fiends & celestials (like you said) Deities & demigods (duh) Go through the MM, MMII, Fiend Folio, & Monsters of Fearun. Check the CRs in the back. In theory, anything with a similiar CR should match up well with a dragon of the same CR.
Steve Russell 08-29-03, 06:29 PM	In the epic level handbooks there is an entirely new catagory of creature known as an Abominations now they are just plain mean. I was also thinking of Huminoid Dragonslayers (prestige classes from Dragon Magaizines come to mind) and other high level adventures Oh and thier own kind dragons war with each other more than some human cultures. Reds vs. silvers, Blues vs. Brass. and some dragons just plain kill thier own colors and types. Then there are Titans and some giants depending on the dragon. Outsiders are probably the best non dragon enemy that can stand up to dragons. then ther is the Forgoteen Realms Pheariumn, Sharn, Shades and Maulgrym. and just to be silly toss enough templates on a troll and he can be mean to a dragon. In the end to big things hurt dragons disorganization as a race and low population numbers due to the need for massive territiory to support thier ecology.
POPE 08-29-03, 07:00 PM	So a dragon vs any equal CR would be a good fight? What about the special abilities?. I am thinking of using dragons as a guardian race, protectors of the world kind of thing. I was just trying to see what would be considered 'dangerous' to them. What could replace them as masters of the mortal world? I was thinking of dividing them into different power levels. True dragons: Epic dragons [defenders of creation] Dragons: Monster manual version [only X number exist and most are in the dragon sleep, most awakened are either insane or seeking power] Drakes: Dragon scaled down abit. We think they are real dragons until we see one. I am also thinking of making 1/2 dragon lizardmen, Draconion style creagons and dragon kin in some way. But otherwise what I would like to see is a race/creature with a history of facing off against dragons. Something that would make a good history, and nemisis creature. Dragons are a specific creature type, I guess I am looking for another. But short of that what are the best creatures?
Steve Russell 08-29-03, 07:06 PM	Huminoids (human dragonslayers) are used by the Council of Wyrms Giants are often talked about in mythology and fantasy as being apposed to dragons. type vs. type (exp Frost Giants vs white dragons) so the giants have a fair chance and the gaints should outnumber the dragons. Not to mention gaints can advance in class nothing worse than a Blackguard Cloud Giant flying a Roc against a silver dragon. As for Force and Prisamtic try Elder Titians.
sandskimmer 08-29-03, 08:01 PM	So a dragon vs any equal CR would be a good fight? What about the special abilities?. CR is suppose to represent the creatures overall power & toughness. So, yes, in theory any other creature with the same CR should be an equal match for a dragon of the same CR. I suggest you go through all the "creature" books to find suitable "dragon slayers" for your campaign. Your idea is a good one. Finding the right "slayer" will be hard and I'm sure you'll get lots of ideas from future posts. Also, don't forget about wyverns!:)
Wolfvyn 08-29-03, 08:49 PM	constructs could be a good match for a dragon. the ever popular tarrasque. A flock of Rocs or a pair of choas Rocs. powerfull elementals
Steve Russell 08-29-03, 08:50 PM	no they would not because they are all stupid
Wolfvyn 08-29-03, 09:15 PM	yes dragon's are smart, but that does n't mean that a stupid opponent can't beat them. many constructs have magic immuntiy so their goes a lot of the dragon's dreaded spell advantage. add thier immunity to crits add a few use activated magic items like an amulet that fires cone of cold or so and suddenly a group of iron golems can now clear a dragon's lair or at the very elast severly weaken him as a first wave for pc's to finish the job if he's home. A group of roc's suddenly diving upon a dragon while it's patroling and gets to close to their nest. Would be well more than just an annoyance to even the older dragons. A tempest elemental would be more then able to send a dragon running for it's life. and anything that would stay and fight a tarrasque isn't all that smart to begin with now is it?
POPE 08-29-03, 11:32 PM	These are great ideas and thanks so far. Though I would rather not it seems that giants are the best bet. A long history of conflict as well as a sense of fear and respect betwen the two can be made. Though Iwill look through al my creature books[MM 1&2 and FF] I doubt that I will find anything more appropiate or more to my liking. Please keep feeding me ideas, maybe something will turn up. Any original creatures out here? What qualaties would you give a natural enemy of dragons?
was_fired 08-29-03, 11:54 PM	Originally posted by Wolfvyn yes dragon's are smart, but that does n't mean that a stupid opponent can't beat them. many constructs have magic immuntiy so their goes a lot of the dragon's dreaded spell advantage. add thier immunity to crits add a few use activated magic items like an amulet that fires cone of cold or so and suddenly a group of iron golems can now clear a dragon's lair or at the very elast severly weaken him as a first wave for pc's to finish the job if he's home. A group of roc's suddenly diving upon a dragon while it's patroling and gets to close to their nest. Would be well more than just an annoyance to even the older dragons. A tempest elemental would be more then able to send a dragon running for it's life. and anything that would stay and fight a tarrasque isn't all that smart to begin with now is it? 1. Magic immunity means magic items would not work on the constructs. Also a dragon would likely know they were coming and defeat the golems in melee without taking any damage simply by using their superior reach and hover. 2. Yeah 3. Depends tempests are strong but a well perpared dragon could take one.
Wolfvyn 08-30-03, 12:05 AM	If i was going to make a natural enemy to dragons it would probably have: 1. some way to cancel out the dragon's blind sight, good bonus to move silently and hide so it can sneak up on the dragon. Or a fast fly speed and perfect menuverability with a high dex score. so that a group of them could fly circles around a dragon. 2. spell resistance 3. damage reduction, some form of energy resistance or regeneration. 4. maybe some type of special attack against dragons or a way for it to ignore or reduce the effectiveness of the dragon's natural armor. for example: latch on, with a sucessfull touch attack a (whatever you name it) can latch unto a dragon and start sucking blood from the dragon like a leech, tick, or some other parasite. sucking 5 hp points per round per creature latched on or something like that. i think a read some time ago on this site, when the did an article on constructs, about one wizards expereince with them. it was writtne like a series of elctures. anyway in one of the lecture the wizards mentioned that a necromancer he once face off against equiped flesh golems with an amulet of fire ball that is activated by touch. Then he gave them the order to touch the amulet as soon as the got to a certain range. which made for a very devestating and unexpected attack. I was suggesting something simular to that. it's a simple instruction and the amulet had a simple method of activation. that should work pretty well on dragons. send in half a dozen iron golems equpied with an amulet of fire ball or maybe one with cone of cold on it
Celchu 08-30-03, 12:13 AM	Originally posted by POPE What qualaties would you give a natural enemy of dragons? Direct competition for food. Say, for example, that both wyverns and dragons occupied the same valley, each hunting for native game. You would eventually get a system similar to the jackals and lions in the African steppes. Extended further, this could be competition for land. Whereas the dragons use the valley for hunting, the dwarves might have an entrance to a silver mine there. Or a natural enemy could be the result of a simple grudge. Dragons live a long time; I'm sure many species would not have a problem holding a grudge against a race that say, killed its wyrmlings several hundred years ago. The other, shorter-lived race, would cease to see the conflict as a feud, and as a natural occurence.
DakezDarkenblood 08-30-03, 11:18 AM	Originally posted by Wolfvyn yes dragon's are smart, but that does n't mean that a stupid opponent can't beat them. many constructs have magic immuntiy so their goes a lot of the dragon's dreaded spell advantage. add thier immunity to crits add a few use activated magic items like an amulet that fires cone of cold or so and suddenly a group of iron golems can now clear a dragon's lair or at the very elast severly weaken him as a first wave for pc's to finish the job if he's home. A group of roc's suddenly diving upon a dragon while it's patroling and gets to close to their nest. Would be well more than just an annoyance to even the older dragons. A tempest elemental would be more then able to send a dragon running for it's life. and anything that would stay and fight a tarrasque isn't all that smart to begin with now is it? Actually, a smart opponent who is as strong as a strong opponent WILL win every time. Just look at your examples, and apply them to a dragon of equivilent CR. 1 - The golem swarm - Umm... how do the golems activate the items? I believe they can use them as long as the spell doesn't allow SR (3.5 clears that up nicely) but as non-intelligent constructs (all the ones with magic immunity) they can't use this death ray items. Plus these items would have to cost a fortune to even have a chance of beating the dragon's SR. Even without magic, though, a great wyrm dragon will utterly devastate any construct or swarm of constructs pre-epic. And if you're using a swarm of iron golems with hundreds of thousands of gold of magical attack items between them... why are you going against anything but? 2 - There is no suddenly. A dragon has a massive spot check... and Rocs are pretty big to miss. Dragon vision may have been dimmed down in 3e (they used to be able to see field mice from a half mile up) but it's still pretty damned good. A dragon is a lot faster than a roc as well, and with the right feats far more manoeverable (wingover when he sees a bunch of rocs coming... or teleport... or horrid wilting). 3 - Why? One spell will protect you from its elemental attack and then it's just a physical monster that is easy to avoid and even easier to destroy. 4 - Actually, by the books, a great wyrm gold dragon is probably the best contender for defeating a Tarrasque one on one. Comparabile hit points, superior armor class, much more physical strength, equal size, a massive breath weapon the tarrasque is not immune to (and needs to roll decently to save against)... and 19 levels of sorcerer thrown in to cast greater magic weapon/fang to beat the tarrasque's DR (3.0... it can't beat it 3.5, but then it doesn't need to... a 15 point power attack will still allow the dragon to hit on a 2). and then a wish to make it dead. So it is smart... it's one of the only things in the world that can take the tarrasque and it's not egotistical of it to believe so. edit: And as to the question at hand (sorry) ... giants are definitely the way to go. They're physically powerful, and come in well organized groups, and have a chance to be immune to the dragon's most devastating ranged attack (red dragon vs fire giants, white dragon spanked by a frost giant).
Algus Wolfbane 08-30-03, 09:13 PM	Do you know how long it takes to hatch a dragon egg cuz my character has one
Mirtek 08-31-03, 10:34 AM	A natural enemy does not need to be up to a dragon in a one vs. one. A tribe of giants is already enough, since dragons are usually alone. In the 2e description of the habits and ecology of green dragons for example, hill giants were named as one of the dragons natural enemies. Hill Giants would prey on younger green dragon for their flesh, hide and bones, while older greens in turn would try to enslave tribes of hill giants. BTW: Almost any dragon would be a match for the Tarrasque, since the dragon would simply fly and attack the T from out of her reach.
L33t Angel 08-31-03, 12:10 PM	Magic items do not work ON THEM. That is the definition of Spell Immunity. A Golem with a necklace of fireballs can activate the weapon (as long as utilizing the item has been programmed itno it) but it cannot be affected by someone else's weapon. Such is Mango.
Alegron Blackwell 09-02-03, 08:05 AM	Thunderworms would destroy dragons easily. I would have to say that adventurers are most likely the greatest threat to dragons, because they create the golems, conjure the demon/devil/elemental to attack them, They take the prestige class, and they want the money...The second would be other dragons.
rob4 09-02-03, 11:26 AM	I recently played a Black Dragon in a duel with a Titan just to see who would win. The Titan won. They're smart, 20th level casters (in 3.0), and have SR. Not a bad dragon fighting package.
POPE 09-02-03, 12:21 PM	Well then, If you were to choose a race to defend your world what would it be? Dragons, titans or giants?
Incenjucar 09-02-03, 03:21 PM	In my setting dragons have a natural enemy, 'Serpents', which come in about as many varieties. Though they don't have near the number of natural attacks a dragon has, they can grapple them in their coils and negate the majority of them while applying their own damage. Some of them fly, some of them burrow, some of them swim, and all of them compete with dragons for food and territory.
Alegron Blackwell 09-02-03, 03:28 PM	Dragons would be my choice of the three to defend my world...they have spell like abilities of high level soc., Mobile, Great physical attacks, Int., and they have breath weapons.
POPE 09-02-03, 10:18 PM	OK, The world will be protected by dragons against any and all incursion. They do constant battle against the titans, their ancient foes. The titans were at one time the sacred guardians of the world until they fell from grace. They seek to one day regain their once lofty status. The dragons are also locked in an eternal conflict with the fiends who continually try to gain a foothold on this world. These battles are the main focus of the dragons who keep watch. In order to better defend the world the dragons seem to have been the impetus and the genesis of afewdraconic humanoid races. They use dragon kin, 1/2 dragon lizard men, dragon spawn and draconians to help them. What do you think? Any suggestions?
Lord of the Ninth 09-02-03, 11:02 PM	I would completely discount the Tarrasque as being any sort of threat to a dragon, even a small one. You see big T is a melee only monster, with low intelligence and no ability to fly. So most dragons can easily escape the tarrasque (and because of their uber-senses they will also always see him/her/it coming). Personally I think that all it would take is for the dragon to fly off and then big T would lose interest and go eat somehting that didn't do that. As for other monsters of equivilant challenge raiting, Dragons are not on par with other monsters. They aren't intended to be, a CR 2 white dragon wyrmling could slay almost any other CR 2 monster in the MM in a fair fight, and in some cases with no loss of PH or other resources. So generally a creature has to have a higher CR, or have abilities that negate those of dragons or play upon any weaknesses they might have.