Dragon HD [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Dragon HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Catra
07-08-05, 07:09 PM I'm currently running a campaign where one of the NPCs (my character, aka the party Deus Ex Machina) was 'posessed' by a Gold Dragon soul so that some magical enchantment could succeed, because obviously the NPC's frail human body wasn't strong enough to undergo the 'operation' (not to say he is very frail at all, compared to other humans.) It was a curse, but it was a necessary curse for certain (unplanned as of now) events to occur. I'm planning on having the Gold Dragon 'merge' souls with the character, purifying the ability and also giving him a boost in Sorc levels.

Well, I looked over the Gold Dragon; I'm sort of confused by the HD chart. Do dragons go up an age category every three HD? That's not a very big advancement for 200 years of life. Can you add class levels normally? What effect will that have on its naturaly HD progression? Does is affect his Caster Level (as per the "Abilities by Age" chart)? Some help with this issue would be appreciated.
BelRex
07-08-05, 07:41 PM Well 200 years is enough time for a wyrmling to go to a mature adult. And yes, every 3 HD is a new age category for a dragon. You can add class levels just like any PC, just remember your rules for epic characters. Taking levels in a class like sorcerer or a class that adds +1 to exisiting spellcasting will stack with your innate draconic spellcasting. (You can probably also skip taking a normal class, and jump right into a PrC because of the abilities you have) Take practiced spellcaster, +4 to your caster level. Also, there is a feat that allows you to use your intelligence for reflex saves instead of your dex(insightful reflexes, complete adventurer). If you don't take a spellcasting class, then the only way to increase your spellcasting power is through age and natural draconic growth. Dragon abilities listed on the chart are only gained for age, not experience. I hope that helps some, keep posting questions..I'll do my best to help you, if you wish.
Catra
07-08-05, 09:06 PM Thank you, BelRex. I also had another question, though it pertains less to dragons (sort of) as it does to just about any powerful magic creature. My character is, eventually, going to go 'spirit hunting'. That is, he is in search of the natural energy produced by a creature's soul. What he wants to do is absorb enough spirit, or ki, to make his soul a divine spark.

How much energy do you think a dragon might have? I was thinking somewhere along HD + Spellcaster level + total spells per day (or total mana points, if you use that system, which I plan to). Any suggestions?
BelRex
07-08-05, 09:48 PM Hrm, I can't say I've had much experience with that sorta transformation. If you are talking about gaining divine..as in a godlike spark..then look at the Dragon Acendant PrC in the Draconomicon. Usually that involves alot of magic and sacrifice. Or are you searching for just immortality?
Rotipher
07-08-05, 09:54 PM My advice: Keep it simple. Treat any creature's "spirit energy" as equal to its challenge rating, or (if you want to do a little more math) as its CR plus the DC of its most powerful spell-like or supernatural ability (if it has any). Don't put yourself into a position where you have to add up a mountain of spell-slots to determine a creature's "spirit energy", because you might have to figure that out on-the-fly.

I wouldn't recommend making levels of spellcasting classes different from any other class level, in determining a being's "spirit energy". Otherwise, if you use this game-mechanic again -- say, if a villain is hunting energy-rich souls to power a terrible ritual -- your PC spellcasters' players will feel like targets and your non-caster PCs' players will feel ignored. Games go far better when characters' danger and involvement is shared by all, rather than singling out specific PCs, IME.
Catra
07-08-05, 10:15 PM Good point. Instead of CR, though, I would use HD, so that I could absorb powerful NPC's as well (or not-so-powerful NPC's, to maybe replenish a spell slot or a number of mana). I still think that spellcasters should have more energy that non-spellcasters, because they must be more resiliant to endure the effects of channeling magic for a lifetime. So, how about HD + Caster level + level of highest spell + magical class abilities (in the case of the Monk). Maybe throw in innate spell resistance? that would show "density" more than quantity, so maybe not.
Derren S.
07-09-05, 04:08 AM Epic rules don't really apply to dragons when they take class levels. Only when they reach 20th level in a class they start using epic rules, not before.
BelRex
07-09-05, 07:09 AM If his HD plus his class levels reaches 21, he can start taking epic feats.
Derren S.
07-09-05, 07:12 AM No. When he reaches old age or takes a class to lvl 20 a dragon can take epic feats.
BelRex
07-09-05, 07:21 AM Look in the Main FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) , a monster character becomes epic when it's character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monsters character level is equal to it's racial HD + class levels. So a young adult gold dragon/sorc 1 would be an epic character.

Edit: And also, you would have to start using the Epic Experience and Wealth information when a young (14HD) gold dragon gained 1 HD naturally. Because his ELC would be 21. (Epic Boards FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430042))
Derren S.
07-09-05, 07:54 AM Look in the Draconomicon which overrules that.
BelRex
07-09-05, 08:05 AM "Dragons of at least old age also can chose these feats even if they have no class levels." Now, since the OP asked about adding class levels, to a dragon, at 21 total(racial HD + class HD) HD, he could start taking epic feats. I am also going with the Main FAQ. It has a rule for all monsters with racial HD. The main reason they put that in there, is because if you allow NPC dragons to gain Epic Feats before Old age(CR 21) you might be introducing epic feats before your PC's have them. I'm assuming that some DM's might find this unbalancing.
Derren S.
07-09-05, 08:13 AM Why the rule is in there doesn't matter.
Dragons gain acces to epic feats at old age and not at 20 HD.
Also many PRCs in this book for dragons require the dragon to have 20HD and don't follow the epic progression like the Elemental Master, Bloodscaled fury or even Dragon Ascendant.

And ally classed dragons published by WotC in the Wyrms of the North articles also don't have epic levels.
Jaerom Darkwind
07-09-05, 08:07 PM In general, specific rules override general ones. Under that guideline, it could be argued that dragons are exceptions to the "21 HD" rule, and instead require the Old age category. Of course, circumstantial evidence that contradicts this can be seen in epic dragons, who are born with 20 or 23 HD and can select epic feats freely from day one (wyrmling age). This may be considered an exception to an exception, though.

However, when perusing the monsters of the Epic Level Handbook, it's clear that they gain access to epic feats at 21 HD like everyone else. Not all of them take it, but there are many that have only 8 non-epic feats (and many more with only 9 or 10). Aside from that line in Draconomicon, all indications point to monsters recieving epic feats starting at 21 HD.

Now then, looking at my copy of the Draconomicon (which I certainly did not obtain illegally in PDF form), the paragraph that has been tossed around is this:

These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.I agree with BelRex's interpretation. The first sentence makes the intent of the second clear. Ordinarily a character needs 21 levels (HD) to qualify for these feats. Exceptionally powerful dragons can bypass this requirement. Though many dragons reach 21 HD at about the same time as Old age sets in, this was obviously meant to be a general guideline that could apply evenly to all dragons, regardless of specific HD advancement.

In the end, though I suppose a case could be made either way. It's up to individual DMs to decide. I strongly recommend that the 21 HD rule be made to apply across the board, however--otherwise inequalities are created and the system is needlessly complicated.
Derren S.
07-09-05, 08:12 PM The question is then what to do with the PRCs as some of them require having 21 HD but have a normal progression and not a epic one.

Also I have yet to see a classed dragon which uses the epic progression and not the standard one.
Catra
07-09-05, 10:26 PM That is because it's not an epic prestige class. Just because you take Assassin at 21st level doesn't mean it has any kind of epic bearing. It's just a normal prestige class.

Think of it as a "buffer" between regular and epic levels.
Jaerom Darkwind
07-09-05, 11:16 PM Note that monstrous HD don't ever use epic BAB and save progressions. So even if you have 21 draconic HD, you still need 20 character levels for that. These PrCs are designed for dragons with pure monstrous HD, so they won't use epic progressions until 21st level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Catra 07-08-05, 07:09 PM	I'm currently running a campaign where one of the NPCs (my character, aka the party Deus Ex Machina) was 'posessed' by a Gold Dragon soul so that some magical enchantment could succeed, because obviously the NPC's frail human body wasn't strong enough to undergo the 'operation' (not to say he is very frail at all, compared to other humans.) It was a curse, but it was a necessary curse for certain (unplanned as of now) events to occur. I'm planning on having the Gold Dragon 'merge' souls with the character, purifying the ability and also giving him a boost in Sorc levels. Well, I looked over the Gold Dragon; I'm sort of confused by the HD chart. Do dragons go up an age category every three HD? That's not a very big advancement for 200 years of life. Can you add class levels normally? What effect will that have on its naturaly HD progression? Does is affect his Caster Level (as per the "Abilities by Age" chart)? Some help with this issue would be appreciated.
BelRex 07-08-05, 07:41 PM	Well 200 years is enough time for a wyrmling to go to a mature adult. And yes, every 3 HD is a new age category for a dragon. You can add class levels just like any PC, just remember your rules for epic characters. Taking levels in a class like sorcerer or a class that adds +1 to exisiting spellcasting will stack with your innate draconic spellcasting. (You can probably also skip taking a normal class, and jump right into a PrC because of the abilities you have) Take practiced spellcaster, +4 to your caster level. Also, there is a feat that allows you to use your intelligence for reflex saves instead of your dex(insightful reflexes, complete adventurer). If you don't take a spellcasting class, then the only way to increase your spellcasting power is through age and natural draconic growth. Dragon abilities listed on the chart are only gained for age, not experience. I hope that helps some, keep posting questions..I'll do my best to help you, if you wish.
Catra 07-08-05, 09:06 PM	Thank you, BelRex. I also had another question, though it pertains less to dragons (sort of) as it does to just about any powerful magic creature. My character is, eventually, going to go 'spirit hunting'. That is, he is in search of the natural energy produced by a creature's soul. What he wants to do is absorb enough spirit, or ki, to make his soul a divine spark. How much energy do you think a dragon might have? I was thinking somewhere along HD + Spellcaster level + total spells per day (or total mana points, if you use that system, which I plan to). Any suggestions?
BelRex 07-08-05, 09:48 PM	Hrm, I can't say I've had much experience with that sorta transformation. If you are talking about gaining divine..as in a godlike spark..then look at the Dragon Acendant PrC in the Draconomicon. Usually that involves alot of magic and sacrifice. Or are you searching for just immortality?
Rotipher 07-08-05, 09:54 PM	My advice: Keep it simple. Treat any creature's "spirit energy" as equal to its challenge rating, or (if you want to do a little more math) as its CR plus the DC of its most powerful spell-like or supernatural ability (if it has any). Don't put yourself into a position where you have to add up a mountain of spell-slots to determine a creature's "spirit energy", because you might have to figure that out on-the-fly. I wouldn't recommend making levels of spellcasting classes different from any other class level, in determining a being's "spirit energy". Otherwise, if you use this game-mechanic again -- say, if a villain is hunting energy-rich souls to power a terrible ritual -- your PC spellcasters' players will feel like targets and your non-caster PCs' players will feel ignored. Games go far better when characters' danger and involvement is shared by all, rather than singling out specific PCs, IME.
Catra 07-08-05, 10:15 PM	Good point. Instead of CR, though, I would use HD, so that I could absorb powerful NPC's as well (or not-so-powerful NPC's, to maybe replenish a spell slot or a number of mana). I still think that spellcasters should have more energy that non-spellcasters, because they must be more resiliant to endure the effects of channeling magic for a lifetime. So, how about HD + Caster level + level of highest spell + magical class abilities (in the case of the Monk). Maybe throw in innate spell resistance? that would show "density" more than quantity, so maybe not.
Derren S. 07-09-05, 04:08 AM	Epic rules don't really apply to dragons when they take class levels. Only when they reach 20th level in a class they start using epic rules, not before.
BelRex 07-09-05, 07:09 AM	If his HD plus his class levels reaches 21, he can start taking epic feats.
Derren S. 07-09-05, 07:12 AM	No. When he reaches old age or takes a class to lvl 20 a dragon can take epic feats.
BelRex 07-09-05, 07:21 AM	Look in the Main FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) , a monster character becomes epic when it's character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monsters character level is equal to it's racial HD + class levels. So a young adult gold dragon/sorc 1 would be an epic character. Edit: And also, you would have to start using the Epic Experience and Wealth information when a young (14HD) gold dragon gained 1 HD naturally. Because his ELC would be 21. (Epic Boards FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430042))
Derren S. 07-09-05, 07:54 AM	Look in the Draconomicon which overrules that.
BelRex 07-09-05, 08:05 AM	"Dragons of at least old age also can chose these feats even if they have no class levels." Now, since the OP asked about adding class levels, to a dragon, at 21 total(racial HD + class HD) HD, he could start taking epic feats. I am also going with the Main FAQ. It has a rule for all monsters with racial HD. The main reason they put that in there, is because if you allow NPC dragons to gain Epic Feats before Old age(CR 21) you might be introducing epic feats before your PC's have them. I'm assuming that some DM's might find this unbalancing.
Derren S. 07-09-05, 08:13 AM	Why the rule is in there doesn't matter. Dragons gain acces to epic feats at old age and not at 20 HD. Also many PRCs in this book for dragons require the dragon to have 20HD and don't follow the epic progression like the Elemental Master, Bloodscaled fury or even Dragon Ascendant. And ally classed dragons published by WotC in the Wyrms of the North articles also don't have epic levels.
Jaerom Darkwind 07-09-05, 08:07 PM	In general, specific rules override general ones. Under that guideline, it could be argued that dragons are exceptions to the "21 HD" rule, and instead require the Old age category. Of course, circumstantial evidence that contradicts this can be seen in epic dragons, who are born with 20 or 23 HD and can select epic feats freely from day one (wyrmling age). This may be considered an exception to an exception, though. However, when perusing the monsters of the Epic Level Handbook, it's clear that they gain access to epic feats at 21 HD like everyone else. Not all of them take it, but there are many that have only 8 non-epic feats (and many more with only 9 or 10). Aside from that line in Draconomicon, all indications point to monsters recieving epic feats starting at 21 HD. Now then, looking at my copy of the Draconomicon (which I certainly did not obtain illegally in PDF form), the paragraph that has been tossed around is this: These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.I agree with BelRex's interpretation. The first sentence makes the intent of the second clear. Ordinarily a character needs 21 levels (HD) to qualify for these feats. Exceptionally powerful dragons can bypass this requirement. Though many dragons reach 21 HD at about the same time as Old age sets in, this was obviously meant to be a general guideline that could apply evenly to all dragons, regardless of specific HD advancement. In the end, though I suppose a case could be made either way. It's up to individual DMs to decide. I strongly recommend that the 21 HD rule be made to apply across the board, however--otherwise inequalities are created and the system is needlessly complicated.
Derren S. 07-09-05, 08:12 PM	The question is then what to do with the PRCs as some of them require having 21 HD but have a normal progression and not a epic one. Also I have yet to see a classed dragon which uses the epic progression and not the standard one.
Catra 07-09-05, 10:26 PM	That is because it's not an epic prestige class. Just because you take Assassin at 21st level doesn't mean it has any kind of epic bearing. It's just a normal prestige class. Think of it as a "buffer" between regular and epic levels.
Jaerom Darkwind 07-09-05, 11:16 PM	Note that monstrous HD don't ever use epic BAB and save progressions. So even if you have 21 draconic HD, you still need 20 character levels for that. These PrCs are designed for dragons with pure monstrous HD, so they won't use epic progressions until 21st level.