Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ApFrot 01-01-04, 12:08 PM	In the book there is a reference that says that, although rare, sometimes 2 dragons of different color mate. Is there any kinda templete for the result of these unions or a list of the resulting dragons anywhere? I don't think slapping the starnd half-dragon templete onto a true dragon would work.
Aeolius 01-01-04, 12:57 PM	Originally posted by ApFrot I don't think slapping the starnd half-dragon templete onto a true dragon would work. According to Savage Species, that's exactly what you do. "This template can be applied to dragons to create combinations of species, such as a half-red black dragon." (pg. 143-144)
jagggar 01-01-04, 09:12 PM	Had a discussion a while back about this. We decided that if you're just looking for a quick monster to whip up, that should work, but there is some wanting of more. I'm sort of trying to come up with one, though I think that mostly what I can do right now is to come up with some general guidelines for coming up with half-breeds. Otherwise I think it'll take a dragon of each cross to be done right. So far I've come up with the thought that true dragon progressions for cross-breeds shouldn't be done for opposite element dragons, no red-whites for example. I haven't come up with too many thoughts for metallics or metallic-chromatic yet, I've mainly been focusing on the chromatics.
thalious 01-01-04, 09:31 PM	I made up a Black-Gold Dragon. I averaged out each type to come up with the final. It was not hard to do.
The Ethereal Wickerman 01-03-04, 05:28 PM	I did think about this a while back. I was thinking that there colors might mix. Just imagine... Red + Blue = Purple Dragons Red + White = Pink Dragons Gold + White = Yellow Dragons What do you think?...:)
Naga_Slayer 01-03-04, 08:15 PM	I once slapped the half black and half red dragon templates on a copper Dragon. Story behind it was that the egg was stolen and had some nasty, dark rituals placed upon it. After the PC's destroyed it, they found out it had a child with a Tiefling. I had to put the draconic and half dragon template on a Tiefling, throw in a few levels of Rogue and Fighter and made my uber bad guy.... until his lair was overridden by mind Flayers. He ended up fighting with the PC's until he fell in battle. The PC's ended up fleeing and had to come back later to fight the Mind Flayer army. Oddly enough, the Mind Flayers suddenly had a new toy to send out against their enemies: a Dragonic Tiefling Half Dragon Half Illithid. The overmind wanted the creature's power added to it's ranks, so the Flayer's stunned him with their Mind Blasts then dragged him off and implanted an Illithid seed in his head. Mind you, this campaign went on for a long, long long time. The first "Uber Villain" was the Dragon. Then many levels later they met his son. Then a few levels later, they met the Mind Flayers' Tank. I ended up stacking on a few levels of Psychic warrior on him. The one PC that survived destroyed him outright and the pitiful creature's head hang's on the wall of the PC's great great grandchildren's house (one of which is now the player in my current campaign).
jagggar 01-03-04, 09:09 PM	Hey Naga, what was the age of the dragon?
RavinRay 01-04-04, 02:09 PM	Originally posted by Aeolius According to Savage Species, that's exactly what you do. "This template can be applied to dragons to create combinations of species, such as a half-red black dragon." (pg. 143-144) About half-dragons... The way I understand it, the dragon who is being added as the template is the one who is mating with the base creature, polymorphed into that creature's form. So in the above example, the red dragon would be in black dragon form while mating with that black dragon, so we end up with a black dragon with some red dragon abilites. (This would also explain how dragonnes were created: that rogue brass dragon decided to mate with a rogue lion in its natural form and not in a lion form - eww.) Now here's the rub: what if the polymorphing dragon is of a species "weaker" than the base dragon? Say a white polymorphed into a green? Theoretically, this should result in a green dragon with white abilities, but could it be the reverse? And what if the green and white decide to mate in their natural forms? Which would be the base and which would be the template? Or do we invent a new color altogether? A dragon whose breath weapon deals half-damage acid and half-damage cold, with acid and cold resistance instead of full immunity? Just the rambling thoughts in this head of mine...
Shaftiel 01-05-04, 03:44 AM	There was a REALLY old dragon magazine which fleshed out the dragon spectrum... the main one I remember was the yellow dragon. The idea being that a green was typically spawned by a yellow and a blue, stuff like that. It was very silly but kinda neat. -Shaftiel
jagggar 01-05-04, 06:14 PM	Maybe yellow dragons really come from a magenta dragon mating with a green dragon. . .
RavinRay 01-06-04, 05:04 AM	Here's some ideas I came up with for dragon hybrids. Feel free to use them, modify them, or ignore them! :tiphat: Alternative dragon-hybrid rules: 1. Give the hybrid dragon seasonal abilities. I use a half-cryohydra/half-pyrohydra hybrid I created before as an example. In summer, the hydra has the full pyrohydra stats: a fire breath weapon and fire immunity. At the onset of autumn, however, the 3d6 damage of the breath weapon drops to 3d4, and the hydra loses its fire subtype and has fire resistance 20. Both figures continue to drop until one week before the middle of autumn, the hydra loses all fire-related abilities and becomes simply a magical beast for two weeks, and its coloring has also changed to match. After that, it starts acquiring cold abilities such as 1d3 cold breath weapon and cold resistance 1. Both values increase over time until, by the onset of winter, the hydra is now a full-fledged cryohydra, with a 3d6 damaging frost breath weapon and cold immunity. This lasts until the start of spring, when the cold abilities start to fade and fire abilities grow after a two-week "normalcy" period, and the cycle begins anew. So, theoretically this template can be applied to a red-white dragon hybrid. But since there is no "normal dragon" we'd have to drop the two-week period and switch the dragon from red to white (and vice-versa) overnight. 2. Make the dragon breathe the two breath weapon forms alternately every 1d4 rounds, and reduce the energy immnuties to resistance 20 (or start with 5 and make this increase with age). Eliminate the subtype. Going back to the red-white hybrid, the first time it breathes fire, then after 1d4 rounds, it then has a cold breath. Optionally, a wyrmling hybrid would have both fire and cold resistance 5, and a great wyrm would have 20. 3. For metallic dragon hybrids, one option is to eliminate the non-damaging breath weapons and have two energy breath weapons. Hence a gold-silver (electrum?) hybrid would lose the paralyzing and weakening gases and have fire and cold breath weapons. Reduce fire and cold immunity to fire and cold resistance 5 (wyrmling) up to 20 (great wyrm). So far, I've covered the breath weapons and subtypes here, but not the spell-like abilities, domain spells (where applicable), and alignment. For the last, a lawful-chaotic hybrid would naturally be neutral. As for the yellow dragon... According to the rules of visible light in the electromagnetic spectrum, red, green and blue are the primary colors (which are the colors of the three most powerful chromatic dragons). Combining two in equal proportions yields the secondary colors: red + green = yellow, green + blue = cyan (light blue), and blue + red = magenta. :teach: So, maybe we can use this note in creating chromatic hybrids.
The White Sorcerer 01-06-04, 06:14 AM	I really don't think a red dragon, for example, would have to polymorph into, say, a green dragon to mate with one.
Naga_Slayer 01-06-04, 09:13 PM	Originally posted by jagggar Hey Naga, what was the age of the dragon? Somewhere in the middle if I recall correctly. It was a while ago. At least adult. I just got Underdark. Half-illithids aren't limited to humanoids anymore...
RavinRay 01-07-04, 06:04 AM	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer I really don't think a red dragon, for example, would have to polymorph into, say, a green dragon to mate with one. My take on it is, if the red and green mated in their natural forms, you would get a red-green hybrid. (Yellow?) But if the red polymorphed into a green, the offspring would be a green with some red abilities. At least, in the world that I submitted to the WotC contest, that's how dragon genetics work.
Nainoa 01-07-04, 01:41 PM	The 2e Draconomicon, had rules written up for how to make cross breeds. I used to have a blast coming up with combos like the Quazar Dragon, Half Silver, Half-Blue... I was recently looking through the 2e book, when I saw that the 3e version didn't have these rules... I don't have the book right now... But if memory serves me... At birth there are a bunch of percentage dice rolls, for things like: Parent A Breath 37% Parent B Breath 37% Mix of A&B 26% (Think Energy Ad Mixture from T&B) Parent A Armor 37% Parent B Armor 37% Average of A & B 26% Parent A HD 37% Parent B HD 37% Average of A & B 26% So on an so forth, for each aspect... Use imagination for how it looks. I'd certainly rather do it that way, rather than slap a Half-Dragon Template on it... That just wouldn't make sense... I mean cross a white with a gold... Wyrmling is born Gold with White Dragon template added to it... Yet it gets a +8 Strength and other AB modifiers... Cold Breath weapon, cold immunity etc... Essentially The off spring is stronger than a Gold-Gold Mating! And that just ain't right... I look at half-Dragon templates as being something you put on a creature of a differt species. That's my two coppers... Nainoa
Naga_Slayer 01-07-04, 09:23 PM	While it was cool making crossbreeds (I also have the 2e book), slapping the template is a lot easier and quicker, especially if a DM needs to do it on the go.
Edymnion 01-07-04, 09:30 PM	Way I do it (and I do like making dual colored dragons) is to apply the template of the stronger dragon onto the weaker dragon. So if you had a mix between a Red Dragon and a Black Dragon, the black dragon is the weaker of the two, so you make a Half-Red Dragon/Black Dragon. It would have black back scales and wing arms, with red belly scales and wing skin. The template increases the str/etc of the black dragon so that it is stronger, but not as strong as the red, which is what I think a hybrid should be, the middle road of the parents. These halfbreeds can either be sterile, or they breed as the weaker dragon type (aka that half red/black would count as a full blooded black dragon for offspring purposes).
howlingwolf 01-08-04, 06:00 AM	A D20 book, Slayer's Guide to Dragons actually has full rules for two different colour dragons getting together. But besides the numbers it's mostly common sense. Eg. Dragon either has one breath weapon from one parent, both breath weapons seperate, or a crazy mixture. ( Eg. Red and white. Flaming ICE!? ) Same with colour and other cosmetic changes. Draconomicon is a better book for fluff and crunch though.
RavinRay 01-08-04, 07:55 AM	Originally posted by howlingwolf ...Slayer's Guide to Dragons actually has full rules for two different colour dragons getting together...dragon either has one breath weapon from one parent, both breath weapons seperate, or a crazy mixture. ( Eg. Red and white. Flaming ICE!? ) With the Breath Weapon Admixture spell it's no longer considered crazy. ...Draconomicon is a better book for fluff and crunch though. Well, you're lucky you got your copy. The eBay seller didn't send it to me even after payment. :( Mongoose Publishing, BTW, has another dragon book, The Book of Dragons, which seems like Volume 2 of the first. It was there, side-by-side with Draconomicon at the RPG/Comic Book store I went to for my copy, but I couldn't pay for two books at once.
the_heart 01-08-04, 08:25 AM	ever heard of 'hybrid vigour'.(i'm no expert, so i could be wrong) i was under the impression that hybrids were often tougher than their parents, but also frequently sterile.
Edymnion 01-08-04, 10:12 PM	Originally posted by the_heart ever heard of 'hybrid vigour'.(i'm no expert, so i could be wrong) i was under the impression that hybrids were often tougher than their parents, but also frequently sterile. It depends really, sometimes they're better, sometimes they're worse, many times they're about the same. Lets take an example of the Lion and the Tiger. It appears that the size limiter gene in the Lion and the Tiger are on differant chromosomes (I'm not sure how exactly). If you mate a Lion and a Tiger one way, you get a Tigon. It stays very small, about the size of a fox, because it inherited the size limiter genes from both parents. Mated the other way around, and you get a Liger, which inherits NEITHER set of size limiter genes. Ligers can get huge because they keep growing for as long as they live. I've got pictures on my HD of one that stands about 5 feet at the shoulder, and can easily top 12 feet when standing on it's hind legs. In one case, the offspring is far weaker than the parents. In the other, the offspring is shorter lived, but becomes much larger and stronger than either of the parents. The most famous hybrid though is the Mule, the hybrid of a Donkey and a Horse, which is a much better beast of burden than either of it's parents (and on a side note, contrary to popular belief, there are some mules that are not sterile, and can breed to make pureblood mules).
jagggar 01-08-04, 10:50 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion The most famous hybrid though is the Mule, the hybrid of a Donkey and a Horse, which is a much better beast of burden than either of it's parents (and on a side note, contrary to popular belief, there are some mules that are not sterile, and can breed to make pureblood mules). Cool, I didn't know that. (The non-sterile part.) I believe the naming rule for the lion-tiger crossbreed is that the first part of the name depends on the father. A male tiger and a lioness creates a Tigon (I'd always heard it Tion though). A lion and a female tiger creates a Liger. Watch me be wrong too since it's been so long since I've heard this. . .
howlingwolf 01-09-04, 08:10 AM	RevinRay, find the ebay guy and rip out his throat. Rawr. But not sure about getting another d20 dragon book. The first sort of.. Sucked. :mad: But thanks for the heads up.
the_heart 01-09-04, 09:16 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion >snip< useful info, has to be said i was basing my info on plants, where the new hybrid is stronger more often than not(c. x leylandii as an extreme example)
PSchirf 01-09-04, 10:00 AM	<edit>