Dragon PC Tips [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon PC Tips [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MattHawk
05-02-04, 04:32 AM Hey everyone,

I'm presently tryng to convince my DM to allow me to play a full dragon for an upcoming campaign - in the past, I've always played characters pretty close to my own personality, so I decided I wanted to try something that would be a real challenge to try to build up my RP skills a little, and since she decided that we could play pretty much anything we wanted for the next campaign we're doing (with her approval, to make sure things stay balanced). I've ordered Draconomicon, but it isn't here yet, so I thought I'd ask a bit about non-stats stuff.

What I was hoping to do is play a very young/young silver dragon (named Selas) that was raised by an order of Paladins after it was hatched (Selas' parents had been slain in battle against a larger evil dragon, which they had fought alongside the paladins; they had asked the paladins to take care of their newly laid egg as their last wish).

While raised by the paladins (and considering for some time becoming the mount for one of them in a few years, when he's big enough to do it), he eventually decides he wants to learn more about his kin, and decides to go on a journey to find other dragons and learn from them - he had been raised entirely apart from other dragons, he'd be pretty behind on knowledge of his own race and their ways. This would be how he'd hook up with the rest of the party - he'd see that they were journying and would decide to tag along, since a party of adventurers would seem to be a group likely to run into other dragons.

In all his time living among humans, Selas would probably have spent a lot of time shape changed into a human - you can't exactly have a dragon walking around town, so the paladins would have made sure he'd do that before he'd go out. As a result, he'd have a tendancy to prefer human form around others; when by himself, he'd probably change to dragon just because it's more natural, but he wouldn't want to appear as a dragon in human company unless an emergency (almost on a phobia level after how much the paladins had emphasized the matter).

I've got a few questions about the best ways to pull this off. First, the LA in MM is +5 for a Young Silver Dragon, but the CR is 7; this seems off a bit, I'd have thought they'd be the same (I don't have much experience with non-standard races). Which should I follow? The party will probably start off at level 7-8 simply so that we can do all the odd things we want to try, so I can do it either way, but which one to use makes a big difference as far as classes.

Which class to play is the next big question. I've played exclusively rangers in the past, and I want something new, not that a silver dragon ranger sounds very likely ('course, the whole situation is pretty unlikely :) ). Rogue is out due to a combination of alignment and the fact that dragons only have 10 dex no matter what age. The obvious choice from the backstory would be a paladin; however, I'm leaning against that purely on terms of that I'd probably not enjoy roleplaying that. The other potential obvious choice is a sorcerer, given the dragon affinity for that class, he might naturally gravitate toward it even with the other influences in his life. I've never played a serious spellcaster before, so that could be interesting. The only thing I'd be concerned about is that a young silver dragon only has an effective spellcaster level of 1, so he would be behind other races in spells per day and known spells; however, given his stats, he'd be ahead as far as physical abilities compared to a standard sorc, so he'd be a bit more survivable in combat, and more useful when out of spells (plus, in an emergency he could shapechange back into a dragon and get his bite, claw, wing, and breath attacks for a physical fight). Any other suggestions as far as a class that would take good advantage of a silver dragon's skillset?

Also, I was hoping to have his age such that he'd move to juvenile at some point in the campaign (it's not likely going to cover an increadably long time in-game time, but a few years is a possibility), with the idea being to give up class levels during the transition (probably two class levels, one midway to the change and the other the level of the change, with the bonuses only being applied on the level the change happened at). Is that a fair way to handle that? Alternatively, is there a way to handle dragon aging like this in Draconomicon?

The third, and perhaps most important, question is how to roleplay this properly. I know the different kinds of dragons have certain natural personality traits, most of which would probably show through his upbringing (as well as his normal human appearance; he'd be trying to not be obvious about it, but some instinct is bound to show anyway). This is probably somewhat covered in Draconomicon, but I just ordered it tonight and it'll still be a few days before it shows up, and I'm excited to work on this now - it'll still be a little while before the campaign starts, but once I get the basics I'm going to have to be doing a lot of work on the specifics of how to do this, since the dragon is smarter then me and I'll need to plan ahead for certain situations to roleplay that correctly :)

Thanks everyone!
MattHawk
05-02-04, 05:04 PM Well, after many hours getting comfortable with the "search" function, I discovered I had no idea whatsoever how LA worked when I typed up that post :) What I thought would be level 4 or 6 is something like equivalent to level 18 (which, looking at the abilities, seems high - not an especially good spellcaster without class ranks, but not very strong physical attacks). I don't quite think I could convince the DM to do that. I didn't realize even wyrmling Dragons were considered so high-level, given how low level a party could take some of them on (I guess I didn't consider the abilities close enough).

In light of that, any tips on a way to get around that? I really like the character concept, and I'd like to find a way to fit it into a reasonable level - is there a way I can adjust the stats to make it fit into a lower level (droping it down to a from Young to Very Young and dropping several HD, or going with a wyrmling Gold and dropping fewer HD, though the personality doesn't match nearly as well as a silver), or would I be best off just waiting for Draconomicon to show up and get ideas from that?
CrimsonPhoenix
05-02-04, 11:23 PM I won't explain the system in Draconomicon because it would take too long, so you can wait until you get it to see. When you do, lower all the level adjustments by 1 for all dragons. That should make things more balanced. This will account for the level adjustment given by natural armor, which I consider to be a "class ability" of dragon racial HD. You could then play a wyrmling silver starting at level 10, but you said above that this would not fit your playing style.

You could also try using only half of the racial HD, add the level adjustment, and fill the rest up with class levels. If you do that, you should probably leave the 1 level adjustment mentioned above, since you are no longer taking "class levels" as dragon HD for that ability. You should still reduce level adjustments of +6 or more by 1, especially with this system, since you will have much less HP than normal (dragon HD give very nice HP whereas most classes do not).

If you have any questions, or if I confused you, post a reply and I'll explain ASAP. Good luck convincing your DM, and if he/she says no, give me his/her address! (I'm a hardcore fan of dragon PCs, and many of my DMs have been...convinced...to let me play one :))

**Side note about your RP ideas in first post: Actually, I would expect that most people would be glad to have a silver dragon around. Also, if local paladins were raising him, word would eventually get out anyway, and people would probably get to know him for what he is. He would likely have little need to use alternate form in most places unless travelling great distances without some protection, since some evil-doers might try to harm him**
TieraStarr
05-05-04, 07:35 AM You may be interested in the brass dragon level progression (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_brass.html) (aka Savage Species) that I have recently done up. (All comments welcome.)

I've completed copper (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_copper.html) and bronze (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_bronze.html) also. Silver is next on my to do list.
TieraStarr
05-05-04, 10:12 PM Okay, I've just posted The Silver Dragon racial level progression (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_silver.html) in case you are interested. If you do end up using it, please let me know how it turns out (you can be my guinea pig playtester :D ).
MattHawk
05-05-04, 10:45 PM Ooooh, nice progression :) Just printed it to show my DM. As for comments, I'm a bit dissapointed that Altrenate Form is so far down the list, at level 8, since the affinity to that ability is one of the main reasons I was favoring the Silver Dragon; though I'll admit I don't see a place earlier that it could be easily swapped into. btw, the description text on AF says 11th level rather then 8th.

Just one question - with a level progression like this, how do you account for age? The way my group plays, it tends to be pretty fast paced (we've advanced several levels over a single week's worth of story), is it normal that groups are leveling slowly enough that the dragon class ages are able to somewhat match the standard dragon ages?

Just got my copy of Draconomicon in the mail today, I'm very excited - normally tonight would be when my group's session is, but it got cancelled this week, so playing with Dragon stuff is making up for it :)

Unfortunately, the DM said no to my initial request (specifically, she said I could do it if I played a low-level dragon, and it never leveled up the entire campagin - she said a Dragon was too powerful otherwise, and while I tried to convince her otherwise, I didn't have any documentation with me at the time for it). However, that was before I got the book, and TieraStarr's level progression. However, due to the whole thing about staying a low level dragon, I don't think she's opposed to the concept, just believes it would be unbalanced. Any tips on how to convince a DM to let me do it? :) Oh well, if she doesn't, another two members of my group (the ones who still have my DMG) are starting a campaign in a few months, maybe I can convince one of them, since they seemed to be very RP focused and willing to consider anything given a good enough reason. But that's several months longer wait, so I'd still like to try to convince the current DM :)
TieraStarr
05-05-04, 11:35 PM MattHawk: Ooooh, nice progression :) Just printed it to show my DM.:bow: Thank you.
MattHawk: As for comments, I'm a bit dissapointed that Altrenate Form is so far down the list, at level 8, since the affinity to that ability is one of the main reasons I was favoring the Silver Dragon; though I'll admit I don't see a place earlier that it could be easily swapped into. btw, the description text on AF says 11th level rather then 8th.I put it there because that is immediately after the increase to small size - which I thought should be a pre-requisite. (Thanks for catching the typo - fixed now - which occurred because I copied it across from the bronze dragon).

MattHawk: Just one question - with a level progression like this, how do you account for age? The way my group plays, it tends to be pretty fast paced (we've advanced several levels over a single week's worth of story), is it normal that groups are leveling slowly enough that the dragon class ages are able to somewhat match the standard dragon ages?
I just use a suspension of disbelief here and ignore the discrepancy. The draconomican takes the opposite tack and requires you to wait two years or more game time before advancing a dragon level (HD or LA).

MattHawk: Unfortunately, the DM said no to my initial request (specifically, she said I could do it if I played a low-level dragon, and it never leveled up the entire campagin - she said a Dragon was too powerful otherwise, and while I tried to convince her otherwise, I didn't have any documentation with me at the time for it).My progression matches the stated LA's up to 20th level. Above that I've added an LA for each size increase, plus one more at 45th, but am not confident enough with epic levels to claim balance there.
Derren S.
05-06-04, 12:59 AM Here are some more dragon classes.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/WizONegathael/dragons.htm

But they don't follow the normal LA, so be carefull.
Dracophile
05-06-04, 02:18 AM You could tell your DM that dragons are generally considered moderately-powered to underpowered player characters. If that doesn't work, you could present her with a few "okay, if I can't play a dragon, I guess I'll get as close as I can with these" character progressions. Each gets you dragon forms, and is more powerful than a player character dragon anyways (just don't tell her that).

If playing 3.0:
Monk 1/Druid 5/Shifter 7...then finish off with whatever you want
Use the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get your dragon breath.

If playing 3.5:
Druid 12
Take the Draconimicon feat Draconic Wildshape

or, if you want to play a dragon without worrying about spells (this is also 3.5):
Wildshape Ranger 9/Monk 1/Nature's Warrior 4/Warshaper 5/Shiba Protector 1
Take Draconic Wildshape and Fast Wildshape and Quick Change (from Savage Species). This lets you shift into whatever dragon you want as a free action.
Asta Kask
05-06-04, 03:11 AM PC Dragon? Yes, I think "chromatic dragon" is a derogatory term. I prefer the term "dragon of color".
TieraStarr
05-06-04, 08:39 AM I've just done the table for the gold dragon (haven't yet written the text to go with it) and have concluded that the bronze and silver dragons have an extra LA that they shouldn't have. I am going to drop one LA from each of those dragons to make them fairer. This means that those two will no longer match the Monster Manual LA's.

The completed set of metallic dragons should be up within a couple of days. Chromatic dragons may have to wait a little longer - real life intrudes.

Edit: Real life intruded. It will take a little longer for my better balanced versions. The current ones still match the Monster Manual LA's.
TieraStarr
05-19-04, 08:06 AM Apparently, there are 1-20 level charts for metalic dragons in dragon magazine #320. I am holding off further work on my project until I get to see them. You may also like to have a look at them to see the official stance on these dragons.
MattHawk
05-19-04, 10:36 AM I'd been putting off subscribing, but I just checked the site, and the cover art for the June issue has "Dragon PCs" on the top right corner - I think I found something to finally convince me to subscribe :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MattHawk 05-02-04, 04:32 AM	Hey everyone, I'm presently tryng to convince my DM to allow me to play a full dragon for an upcoming campaign - in the past, I've always played characters pretty close to my own personality, so I decided I wanted to try something that would be a real challenge to try to build up my RP skills a little, and since she decided that we could play pretty much anything we wanted for the next campaign we're doing (with her approval, to make sure things stay balanced). I've ordered Draconomicon, but it isn't here yet, so I thought I'd ask a bit about non-stats stuff. What I was hoping to do is play a very young/young silver dragon (named Selas) that was raised by an order of Paladins after it was hatched (Selas' parents had been slain in battle against a larger evil dragon, which they had fought alongside the paladins; they had asked the paladins to take care of their newly laid egg as their last wish). While raised by the paladins (and considering for some time becoming the mount for one of them in a few years, when he's big enough to do it), he eventually decides he wants to learn more about his kin, and decides to go on a journey to find other dragons and learn from them - he had been raised entirely apart from other dragons, he'd be pretty behind on knowledge of his own race and their ways. This would be how he'd hook up with the rest of the party - he'd see that they were journying and would decide to tag along, since a party of adventurers would seem to be a group likely to run into other dragons. In all his time living among humans, Selas would probably have spent a lot of time shape changed into a human - you can't exactly have a dragon walking around town, so the paladins would have made sure he'd do that before he'd go out. As a result, he'd have a tendancy to prefer human form around others; when by himself, he'd probably change to dragon just because it's more natural, but he wouldn't want to appear as a dragon in human company unless an emergency (almost on a phobia level after how much the paladins had emphasized the matter). I've got a few questions about the best ways to pull this off. First, the LA in MM is +5 for a Young Silver Dragon, but the CR is 7; this seems off a bit, I'd have thought they'd be the same (I don't have much experience with non-standard races). Which should I follow? The party will probably start off at level 7-8 simply so that we can do all the odd things we want to try, so I can do it either way, but which one to use makes a big difference as far as classes. Which class to play is the next big question. I've played exclusively rangers in the past, and I want something new, not that a silver dragon ranger sounds very likely ('course, the whole situation is pretty unlikely :) ). Rogue is out due to a combination of alignment and the fact that dragons only have 10 dex no matter what age. The obvious choice from the backstory would be a paladin; however, I'm leaning against that purely on terms of that I'd probably not enjoy roleplaying that. The other potential obvious choice is a sorcerer, given the dragon affinity for that class, he might naturally gravitate toward it even with the other influences in his life. I've never played a serious spellcaster before, so that could be interesting. The only thing I'd be concerned about is that a young silver dragon only has an effective spellcaster level of 1, so he would be behind other races in spells per day and known spells; however, given his stats, he'd be ahead as far as physical abilities compared to a standard sorc, so he'd be a bit more survivable in combat, and more useful when out of spells (plus, in an emergency he could shapechange back into a dragon and get his bite, claw, wing, and breath attacks for a physical fight). Any other suggestions as far as a class that would take good advantage of a silver dragon's skillset? Also, I was hoping to have his age such that he'd move to juvenile at some point in the campaign (it's not likely going to cover an increadably long time in-game time, but a few years is a possibility), with the idea being to give up class levels during the transition (probably two class levels, one midway to the change and the other the level of the change, with the bonuses only being applied on the level the change happened at). Is that a fair way to handle that? Alternatively, is there a way to handle dragon aging like this in Draconomicon? The third, and perhaps most important, question is how to roleplay this properly. I know the different kinds of dragons have certain natural personality traits, most of which would probably show through his upbringing (as well as his normal human appearance; he'd be trying to not be obvious about it, but some instinct is bound to show anyway). This is probably somewhat covered in Draconomicon, but I just ordered it tonight and it'll still be a few days before it shows up, and I'm excited to work on this now - it'll still be a little while before the campaign starts, but once I get the basics I'm going to have to be doing a lot of work on the specifics of how to do this, since the dragon is smarter then me and I'll need to plan ahead for certain situations to roleplay that correctly :) Thanks everyone!
MattHawk 05-02-04, 05:04 PM	Well, after many hours getting comfortable with the "search" function, I discovered I had no idea whatsoever how LA worked when I typed up that post :) What I thought would be level 4 or 6 is something like equivalent to level 18 (which, looking at the abilities, seems high - not an especially good spellcaster without class ranks, but not very strong physical attacks). I don't quite think I could convince the DM to do that. I didn't realize even wyrmling Dragons were considered so high-level, given how low level a party could take some of them on (I guess I didn't consider the abilities close enough). In light of that, any tips on a way to get around that? I really like the character concept, and I'd like to find a way to fit it into a reasonable level - is there a way I can adjust the stats to make it fit into a lower level (droping it down to a from Young to Very Young and dropping several HD, or going with a wyrmling Gold and dropping fewer HD, though the personality doesn't match nearly as well as a silver), or would I be best off just waiting for Draconomicon to show up and get ideas from that?
CrimsonPhoenix 05-02-04, 11:23 PM	I won't explain the system in Draconomicon because it would take too long, so you can wait until you get it to see. When you do, lower all the level adjustments by 1 for all dragons. That should make things more balanced. This will account for the level adjustment given by natural armor, which I consider to be a "class ability" of dragon racial HD. You could then play a wyrmling silver starting at level 10, but you said above that this would not fit your playing style. You could also try using only half of the racial HD, add the level adjustment, and fill the rest up with class levels. If you do that, you should probably leave the 1 level adjustment mentioned above, since you are no longer taking "class levels" as dragon HD for that ability. You should still reduce level adjustments of +6 or more by 1, especially with this system, since you will have much less HP than normal (dragon HD give very nice HP whereas most classes do not). If you have any questions, or if I confused you, post a reply and I'll explain ASAP. Good luck convincing your DM, and if he/she says no, give me his/her address! (I'm a hardcore fan of dragon PCs, and many of my DMs have been...convinced...to let me play one :)) Side note about your RP ideas in first post: Actually, I would expect that most people would be glad to have a silver dragon around. Also, if local paladins were raising him, word would eventually get out anyway, and people would probably get to know him for what he is. He would likely have little need to use alternate form in most places unless travelling great distances without some protection, since some evil-doers might try to harm him
TieraStarr 05-05-04, 07:35 AM	You may be interested in the brass dragon level progression (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_brass.html) (aka Savage Species) that I have recently done up. (All comments welcome.) I've completed copper (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_copper.html) and bronze (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_bronze.html) also. Silver is next on my to do list.
TieraStarr 05-05-04, 10:12 PM	Okay, I've just posted The Silver Dragon racial level progression (http://www.geocities.com/tierast/dragon_silver.html) in case you are interested. If you do end up using it, please let me know how it turns out (you can be my guinea pig playtester :D ).
MattHawk 05-05-04, 10:45 PM	Ooooh, nice progression :) Just printed it to show my DM. As for comments, I'm a bit dissapointed that Altrenate Form is so far down the list, at level 8, since the affinity to that ability is one of the main reasons I was favoring the Silver Dragon; though I'll admit I don't see a place earlier that it could be easily swapped into. btw, the description text on AF says 11th level rather then 8th. Just one question - with a level progression like this, how do you account for age? The way my group plays, it tends to be pretty fast paced (we've advanced several levels over a single week's worth of story), is it normal that groups are leveling slowly enough that the dragon class ages are able to somewhat match the standard dragon ages? Just got my copy of Draconomicon in the mail today, I'm very excited - normally tonight would be when my group's session is, but it got cancelled this week, so playing with Dragon stuff is making up for it :) Unfortunately, the DM said no to my initial request (specifically, she said I could do it if I played a low-level dragon, and it never leveled up the entire campagin - she said a Dragon was too powerful otherwise, and while I tried to convince her otherwise, I didn't have any documentation with me at the time for it). However, that was before I got the book, and TieraStarr's level progression. However, due to the whole thing about staying a low level dragon, I don't think she's opposed to the concept, just believes it would be unbalanced. Any tips on how to convince a DM to let me do it? :) Oh well, if she doesn't, another two members of my group (the ones who still have my DMG) are starting a campaign in a few months, maybe I can convince one of them, since they seemed to be very RP focused and willing to consider anything given a good enough reason. But that's several months longer wait, so I'd still like to try to convince the current DM :)
TieraStarr 05-05-04, 11:35 PM	MattHawk: Ooooh, nice progression :) Just printed it to show my DM.:bow: Thank you. MattHawk: As for comments, I'm a bit dissapointed that Altrenate Form is so far down the list, at level 8, since the affinity to that ability is one of the main reasons I was favoring the Silver Dragon; though I'll admit I don't see a place earlier that it could be easily swapped into. btw, the description text on AF says 11th level rather then 8th.I put it there because that is immediately after the increase to small size - which I thought should be a pre-requisite. (Thanks for catching the typo - fixed now - which occurred because I copied it across from the bronze dragon). MattHawk: Just one question - with a level progression like this, how do you account for age? The way my group plays, it tends to be pretty fast paced (we've advanced several levels over a single week's worth of story), is it normal that groups are leveling slowly enough that the dragon class ages are able to somewhat match the standard dragon ages? I just use a suspension of disbelief here and ignore the discrepancy. The draconomican takes the opposite tack and requires you to wait two years or more game time before advancing a dragon level (HD or LA). MattHawk: Unfortunately, the DM said no to my initial request (specifically, she said I could do it if I played a low-level dragon, and it never leveled up the entire campagin - she said a Dragon was too powerful otherwise, and while I tried to convince her otherwise, I didn't have any documentation with me at the time for it).My progression matches the stated LA's up to 20th level. Above that I've added an LA for each size increase, plus one more at 45th, but am not confident enough with epic levels to claim balance there.
Derren S. 05-06-04, 12:59 AM	Here are some more dragon classes. http://members.lycos.co.uk/WizONegathael/dragons.htm But they don't follow the normal LA, so be carefull.
Dracophile 05-06-04, 02:18 AM	You could tell your DM that dragons are generally considered moderately-powered to underpowered player characters. If that doesn't work, you could present her with a few "okay, if I can't play a dragon, I guess I'll get as close as I can with these" character progressions. Each gets you dragon forms, and is more powerful than a player character dragon anyways (just don't tell her that). If playing 3.0: Monk 1/Druid 5/Shifter 7...then finish off with whatever you want Use the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get your dragon breath. If playing 3.5: Druid 12 Take the Draconimicon feat Draconic Wildshape or, if you want to play a dragon without worrying about spells (this is also 3.5): Wildshape Ranger 9/Monk 1/Nature's Warrior 4/Warshaper 5/Shiba Protector 1 Take Draconic Wildshape and Fast Wildshape and Quick Change (from Savage Species). This lets you shift into whatever dragon you want as a free action.
Asta Kask 05-06-04, 03:11 AM	PC Dragon? Yes, I think "chromatic dragon" is a derogatory term. I prefer the term "dragon of color".
TieraStarr 05-06-04, 08:39 AM	I've just done the table for the gold dragon (haven't yet written the text to go with it) and have concluded that the bronze and silver dragons have an extra LA that they shouldn't have. I am going to drop one LA from each of those dragons to make them fairer. This means that those two will no longer match the Monster Manual LA's. The completed set of metallic dragons should be up within a couple of days. Chromatic dragons may have to wait a little longer - real life intrudes. Edit: Real life intruded. It will take a little longer for my better balanced versions. The current ones still match the Monster Manual LA's.
TieraStarr 05-19-04, 08:06 AM	Apparently, there are 1-20 level charts for metalic dragons in dragon magazine #320. I am holding off further work on my project until I get to see them. You may also like to have a look at them to see the official stance on these dragons.
MattHawk 05-19-04, 10:36 AM	I'd been putting off subscribing, but I just checked the site, and the cover art for the June issue has "Dragon PCs" on the top right corner - I think I found something to finally convince me to subscribe :)