Dragon Prestige BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Prestige BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
K'man
11-21-03, 01:57 AM Seems to me that many of the prestige classes for dragons in this book, such as the Bloodscaled Fury (p. 86), Dragon Ascendant (p.90), Elemental Master (p. 92), and Hidecarved Dragon (p. 94) have prerequisites of a BAB of 20 or higher. If so, why do these classes have base attack and save progressions? Don't epic level classes and PrCs all use the same BaB and save progressions? Or is there something different about these classes?

For instance, if I had a half-dragon barbarian who made it to level 23 or 24 (giving him a BaB of 22), he could qualify for levels of Bloodscaled Fury. However, by that time, he's an epic character (there's no way to qualify for any of the above PrCs without being epic). As an epic character, he gains an epic attack bonus every odd-numbered level, and a save bonus every even-numbered level. By the time he takes this class, there's no reason for him to use its attack and save progressions. But if that's the case, why are they included? Are these classes supposed to be exceptions to the epic rules, or are the tables just poorly thought out?

Any thoughts, clarifications, errata, houserules, etc. would be appreciated, thanks.
MightyMightyThundarr
11-21-03, 04:00 AM Well, I'd say the base attack progression is there for the benefit of the dragons themselves, who don't normally get a progression there except by aging. For draconic characters that do use class levels, you would ignore the attack progression listed in the PrC and stick with the standard epic attack bonus progression, as you would with any other PrC or class at epic levels.
Rabe
11-21-03, 06:45 AM No, there is something you overlooked.

Monster BAB does not stop at 20 but goes on indefinitely, according to its HD by the advancement type. So they had to write down the BAB for a dragon PrC to continue the progression for the dragon, else he would advance like an epic character by class while he is taking class levels.

They did never write anywhere, how saving throws progress beyond 20 HD (or levels) for monsters. So I continued saves as for epic charcaters once a monster hit its maximum save in a category (this is a house rule). I should pester the rule department once more to find out, how they intended saving throws to be :smirk:

Rabe
Eagle Prince
11-21-03, 08:07 PM You don't start gaining epic attack/save bonuses until you have 20 character levels (not including monster HD). Thus a dragon would have to take 20 levels from classes before he started getting the epic attack/save, and would still get normal BAB/saves for any dragon HD he gained from aging.
El_Machinae
11-19-06, 08:57 PM This means that the dragon PrCs are much better for true dragons than many normal races.
runestar
11-19-06, 09:55 PM Look up the FAQ, it was mentioned that as a special exception to the rules, the designers meant for the dragon prcs' bab to stack on top of a dragon's bab, rather than be subject to epic bab rules.:)
Are the epic rules for advancement by prestige classes different for dragons? Some prestige classes for dragons in Draconomicon effectively require the dragon to be epic but still list base attack bonus and base save progressions. Are those values used instead of the epic attack and save bonus progressions described in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide? And if so, does this let dragon characters (or half-dragon characters) break the normal limit of base attack and save bonuses?

The prestige classes in Draconomicon are special exceptions to the normal limits on base attack and save bonuses listed in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide. While they are designed for monsters, any character of the dragon type who meets the prerequisites is technically allowed to take levels in
these classes, and thus exceed the normal limit on base attack and save bonuses.

DMs who want to avoid this headache are encouraged to adopt either or both of the following house rules: 1) The classes are available only to true dragons (not simply to creatures of the dragon type); or
2) The base attack and base save bonus progressions listed apply only to characters who haven’t already reached ECL 20. In some cases (such as the bloodscaled fury, which requires the creature to already have a base attack bonus above +20), this means that the entire progression is effectively eliminated.
Derren S.
11-20-06, 04:47 AM he could qualify for levels of Bloodscaled Fury.

I thought this PRCs have a True Dragon requirement? Maybe the Fury is an exception. I have to look.
Witch
11-20-06, 04:51 AM You don't start gaining epic attack/save bonuses until you have 20 character levels (not including monster HD). Thus a dragon would have to take 20 levels from classes before he started getting the epic attack/save, and would still get normal BAB/saves for any dragon HD he gained from aging.
Incorrect.
You get epic attack/save bonuses as long as your total hit dice exceeds 20, and at least one of those is a class level.
KurenaiYami
11-20-06, 04:58 AM Incorrect.
You get epic attack/save bonuses as long as your total hit dice exceeds 20, and at least one of those is a class level.

So then, does that mean the prestige class progression doesn't mean anything after it takes the first level?

By the way, can you site where it says this? I heard it before, but I have no idea where from.
Witch
11-20-06, 05:06 AM So then, does that mean the prestige class progression doesn't mean anything after it takes the first level?

By the way, can you site where it says this? I heard it before, but I have no idea where from.

From the Epic SRD:
Epic Save Bonus

A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus.
Epic Attack Bonus

Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
Note that:
Character Level = Racial Hit Dice + Class levels
Effective Character Level = Racial Hit Dice + Class Levels + Level Adjustment

I'll need to find exactly where it states that pure racial HD does not trigger epic progression, but you can find plenty examples of that in the monster manual.

In other words, epic prestige classes shouldn't have base attack bonuses listed, nor base save bonuses. Not even if they're for dragons.
Derren S.
11-20-06, 05:13 AM So then, does that mean the prestige class progression doesn't mean anything after it takes the first level?

By the way, can you site where it says this? I heard it before, but I have no idea where from.

Normally yes. But as runestar posted the Dragon PRCs are an exception and you always use the listed progession no matter how many HD you have.
runestar
11-20-06, 07:42 AM Also, what qualifies as a true dragon? I am asking because dragonwrought kobolds have age categories just like true dragons.

By RAW, venerable dragonwrought kobolds can already qualify for epic feats from 1st lv onwards, and I am wondering just how far I can stretch this...:P
Licínio Miranda
11-20-06, 07:55 AM Also, what qualifies as a true dragon? I am asking because dragonwrought kobolds have age categories just like true dragons.

By RAW, venerable dragonwrought kobolds can already qualify for epic feats from 1st lv onwards, and I am wondering just how far I can stretch this...:P

Only if you DM is insane. :D

Of course whn the put "old or more" as a prerequisite, they were talking about a true Dragon, and not about a 70 years old Kobold. Of course, with so many munchikins out there desperate to find gaps on the rules...
runestar
11-20-06, 08:11 AM Of course whn the put "old or more" as a prerequisite, they were talking about a true Dragon, and not about a 70 years old Kobold. Of course, with so many munchikins out there desperate to find gaps on the rules...
Well, to be fair, that would not mean that the munchkins are wrong, just that the rules are poorly conceived to begin with...:embarrass They would then simply be guilty of attempting to break a game, but not of misinterpreting the rules...

I would like to know just what the game designers were thinking off when they assigned age categories to kobolds...

What are the chances that this was intentional?:P
Derren S.
11-20-06, 08:27 AM By RAW, venerable dragonwrought kobolds can already qualify for epic feats from 1st lv onwards, and I am wondering just how far I can stretch this...:P

Only if the kobold also qualifies for the other prerequisits.
runestar
11-20-06, 09:49 AM Only if the kobold also qualifies for the other prerequisits.
There are quite a few epic feats which have no prereqs, other than the unwritten "must be lv21 to take", which would appear to be superceded by the specific rule from draconomicon/ELH.:P
BelRex
11-20-06, 06:43 PM Well the ones with high scores are probably out, until mid-teen's anyway. Otherwise, ones like imporoved darkvision, spectral strike, unholy strike would probably not be that game breaking. Use the guy as a lesson for adventurers who think a kobold den is easy pickings :P
runestar
11-20-06, 09:43 PM Well, off the head, there's epic weapon focus/spec, devastating and overwhelming crit, epic toughness, epic speed, infinite/exceptional deflection, dire charge...and I think the list can go on for quite a bit, but these are a few of the more readily qualified ones...:P

The CO boards...dunno whether to love them or strangle them...:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
K'man 11-21-03, 01:57 AM	Seems to me that many of the prestige classes for dragons in this book, such as the Bloodscaled Fury (p. 86), Dragon Ascendant (p.90), Elemental Master (p. 92), and Hidecarved Dragon (p. 94) have prerequisites of a BAB of 20 or higher. If so, why do these classes have base attack and save progressions? Don't epic level classes and PrCs all use the same BaB and save progressions? Or is there something different about these classes? For instance, if I had a half-dragon barbarian who made it to level 23 or 24 (giving him a BaB of 22), he could qualify for levels of Bloodscaled Fury. However, by that time, he's an epic character (there's no way to qualify for any of the above PrCs without being epic). As an epic character, he gains an epic attack bonus every odd-numbered level, and a save bonus every even-numbered level. By the time he takes this class, there's no reason for him to use its attack and save progressions. But if that's the case, why are they included? Are these classes supposed to be exceptions to the epic rules, or are the tables just poorly thought out? Any thoughts, clarifications, errata, houserules, etc. would be appreciated, thanks.
MightyMightyThundarr 11-21-03, 04:00 AM	Well, I'd say the base attack progression is there for the benefit of the dragons themselves, who don't normally get a progression there except by aging. For draconic characters that do use class levels, you would ignore the attack progression listed in the PrC and stick with the standard epic attack bonus progression, as you would with any other PrC or class at epic levels.
Rabe 11-21-03, 06:45 AM	No, there is something you overlooked. Monster BAB does not stop at 20 but goes on indefinitely, according to its HD by the advancement type. So they had to write down the BAB for a dragon PrC to continue the progression for the dragon, else he would advance like an epic character by class while he is taking class levels. They did never write anywhere, how saving throws progress beyond 20 HD (or levels) for monsters. So I continued saves as for epic charcaters once a monster hit its maximum save in a category (this is a house rule). I should pester the rule department once more to find out, how they intended saving throws to be :smirk: Rabe
Eagle Prince 11-21-03, 08:07 PM	You don't start gaining epic attack/save bonuses until you have 20 character levels (not including monster HD). Thus a dragon would have to take 20 levels from classes before he started getting the epic attack/save, and would still get normal BAB/saves for any dragon HD he gained from aging.
El_Machinae 11-19-06, 08:57 PM	This means that the dragon PrCs are much better for true dragons than many normal races.
runestar 11-19-06, 09:55 PM	Look up the FAQ, it was mentioned that as a special exception to the rules, the designers meant for the dragon prcs' bab to stack on top of a dragon's bab, rather than be subject to epic bab rules.:) Are the epic rules for advancement by prestige classes different for dragons? Some prestige classes for dragons in Draconomicon effectively require the dragon to be epic but still list base attack bonus and base save progressions. Are those values used instead of the epic attack and save bonus progressions described in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide? And if so, does this let dragon characters (or half-dragon characters) break the normal limit of base attack and save bonuses? The prestige classes in Draconomicon are special exceptions to the normal limits on base attack and save bonuses listed in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide. While they are designed for monsters, any character of the dragon type who meets the prerequisites is technically allowed to take levels in these classes, and thus exceed the normal limit on base attack and save bonuses. DMs who want to avoid this headache are encouraged to adopt either or both of the following house rules: 1) The classes are available only to true dragons (not simply to creatures of the dragon type); or 2) The base attack and base save bonus progressions listed apply only to characters who haven’t already reached ECL 20. In some cases (such as the bloodscaled fury, which requires the creature to already have a base attack bonus above +20), this means that the entire progression is effectively eliminated.
Derren S. 11-20-06, 04:47 AM	he could qualify for levels of Bloodscaled Fury. I thought this PRCs have a True Dragon requirement? Maybe the Fury is an exception. I have to look.
Witch 11-20-06, 04:51 AM	You don't start gaining epic attack/save bonuses until you have 20 character levels (not including monster HD). Thus a dragon would have to take 20 levels from classes before he started getting the epic attack/save, and would still get normal BAB/saves for any dragon HD he gained from aging. Incorrect. You get epic attack/save bonuses as long as your total hit dice exceeds 20, and at least one of those is a class level.
KurenaiYami 11-20-06, 04:58 AM	Incorrect. You get epic attack/save bonuses as long as your total hit dice exceeds 20, and at least one of those is a class level. So then, does that mean the prestige class progression doesn't mean anything after it takes the first level? By the way, can you site where it says this? I heard it before, but I have no idea where from.
Witch 11-20-06, 05:06 AM	So then, does that mean the prestige class progression doesn't mean anything after it takes the first level? By the way, can you site where it says this? I heard it before, but I have no idea where from. From the Epic SRD: Epic Save Bonus A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus. Epic Attack Bonus Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus. Note that: Character Level = Racial Hit Dice + Class levels Effective Character Level = Racial Hit Dice + Class Levels + Level Adjustment I'll need to find exactly where it states that pure racial HD does not trigger epic progression, but you can find plenty examples of that in the monster manual. In other words, epic prestige classes shouldn't have base attack bonuses listed, nor base save bonuses. Not even if they're for dragons.
Derren S. 11-20-06, 05:13 AM	So then, does that mean the prestige class progression doesn't mean anything after it takes the first level? By the way, can you site where it says this? I heard it before, but I have no idea where from. Normally yes. But as runestar posted the Dragon PRCs are an exception and you always use the listed progession no matter how many HD you have.
runestar 11-20-06, 07:42 AM	Also, what qualifies as a true dragon? I am asking because dragonwrought kobolds have age categories just like true dragons. By RAW, venerable dragonwrought kobolds can already qualify for epic feats from 1st lv onwards, and I am wondering just how far I can stretch this...:P
Licínio Miranda 11-20-06, 07:55 AM	Also, what qualifies as a true dragon? I am asking because dragonwrought kobolds have age categories just like true dragons. By RAW, venerable dragonwrought kobolds can already qualify for epic feats from 1st lv onwards, and I am wondering just how far I can stretch this...:P Only if you DM is insane. :D Of course whn the put "old or more" as a prerequisite, they were talking about a true Dragon, and not about a 70 years old Kobold. Of course, with so many munchikins out there desperate to find gaps on the rules...
runestar 11-20-06, 08:11 AM	Of course whn the put "old or more" as a prerequisite, they were talking about a true Dragon, and not about a 70 years old Kobold. Of course, with so many munchikins out there desperate to find gaps on the rules... Well, to be fair, that would not mean that the munchkins are wrong, just that the rules are poorly conceived to begin with...:embarrass They would then simply be guilty of attempting to break a game, but not of misinterpreting the rules... I would like to know just what the game designers were thinking off when they assigned age categories to kobolds... What are the chances that this was intentional?:P
Derren S. 11-20-06, 08:27 AM	By RAW, venerable dragonwrought kobolds can already qualify for epic feats from 1st lv onwards, and I am wondering just how far I can stretch this...:P Only if the kobold also qualifies for the other prerequisits.
runestar 11-20-06, 09:49 AM	Only if the kobold also qualifies for the other prerequisits. There are quite a few epic feats which have no prereqs, other than the unwritten "must be lv21 to take", which would appear to be superceded by the specific rule from draconomicon/ELH.:P
BelRex 11-20-06, 06:43 PM	Well the ones with high scores are probably out, until mid-teen's anyway. Otherwise, ones like imporoved darkvision, spectral strike, unholy strike would probably not be that game breaking. Use the guy as a lesson for adventurers who think a kobold den is easy pickings :P
runestar 11-20-06, 09:43 PM	Well, off the head, there's epic weapon focus/spec, devastating and overwhelming crit, epic toughness, epic speed, infinite/exceptional deflection, dire charge...and I think the list can go on for quite a bit, but these are a few of the more readily qualified ones...:P The CO boards...dunno whether to love them or strangle them...:D