Dragon's alternate forms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon's alternate forms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chronic Alcoholic
06-20-04, 05:09 PM Ok, I was thinking about allowing one of my players play a Silver Dragon using the rules in Dragon Magazine #320. The party is at 3rd level as is.

He was thinking about staying in humanoid form (elf or human) to begin with (very usual for silver dragons) and the rest of the group won't know about his true identity to begin with.

Here is my questions, what will his physical stats be when in other form, will his natural ac work there, can he use armor and does that stack with natural ac, what happens to his clothes when he changes back into dragon.

Basicly i would like to learn have it really works with the alternate forms.
Insanity
06-20-04, 07:55 PM I believe he would have the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) of an average member of that race. His mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) would remain the same. I doubt he would have his natural armor bonus, and should be able to wear armor and weapons. He could cast spells, as a humanoid form is one able make the verbal and somatic components.
Chronic Alcoholic
06-20-04, 11:09 PM Well I stole this from Rules of the game column

Alternate Form

This supernatural special quality works much like the polymorph spell; here's an overview, with the differences between the alternate form ability and the polymorph spell called out.

Unlike polymorph, the creature is limited to the assumed forms specified in the creature's description.

Unlike polymorph, the creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.

The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form. The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

Unlike polymorph, the creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or supernatural attacks of its new form.

The creature gains the physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) of its original form.

Unlike polymorph, the creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.

Unlike polymorph, the creature does not regain any lost hit points from changing form.

The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
See Part Two for other notes on spellcasting when in an assumed form.

The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.

Should answer most my questions I guess.
Noria Merfolk Mage
06-22-04, 11:57 AM The only real issue I would have is the way this would effect your ability scores. The character is question would be stuck with Str 10, Dex 10 and Con 10 basically the whole time. This would, quite simply, suck rocks.
Would houseruling that part to say that you change to the new race's ability score mods, if they are less than your own, be ok??? That way you could at least keep the stats you rolled 4d6 for. This is probably what I would do if one of my PCs went for these classes.
jagggar
06-22-04, 01:13 PM I second the motion to let him have what he rolled for physical ablities with the alternate form's racial modifiers. It just makes sense.
Pasquirlio
06-22-04, 02:42 PM Actually the draconomicon has a ruling on that(well it's a dragon only spell called draconic polymorph so I use that version for the built in ability as well. It's basically applying the avergage stats of a member of that race but with(like the half dragon template) +8 Str, +0 Dex and +2 con. However the new form can't havemore HD than the original form to a maximum of 20 HD. If you feel like using this as a guideline.
Pasquirlio
06-22-04, 03:20 PM Of course that ruling isn't really logical for my favourite the steel dragon.

I love the little things but their physical stats are way beneath the dragon norm. A polymorfed steel would get a str increase from this use. So i usually apply the rule depending on the dragon's type and age.
Noria Merfolk Mage
06-22-04, 03:45 PM I wouldn't go that far, but certainly if a person is a melee fighter (as someone with a dragon's BAB likely is), I wouldn't see them penalised just so that they can fit in in the party. The alternate form should just change their racial mods, not their total scores. That balances the usefullness fo the ability to fit in with the power of the standard draconic form.
jagggar
06-23-04, 02:32 PM Originally posted by Noria Merfolk Mage
I wouldn't go that far, but certainly if a person is a melee fighter (as someone with a dragon's BAB likely is), I wouldn't see them penalised just so that they can fit in in the party. The alternate form should just change their racial mods, not their total scores. That balances the usefullness fo the ability to fit in with the power of the standard draconic form.

What about when you get older, and hence, bigger. That doesn't account for size changes.
Noria Merfolk Mage
06-23-04, 04:19 PM How do you mean?? In the dragons natural form, the ability changes as you grow are built into the monster class progression. Also, they're seperate from the abilities in your alternate form, which are decided by the alternate form chosen. I don't quite get your point.
Zif
06-28-04, 09:17 AM If a dragon NPC took an alternate form, they would have all 10's in that form because regular monsters have average stats for their race. That's the purpose of the "draconic polymorph". If a PC dragon takes the alternate form, they definately keep their rolled stats and remove their dragon stat modifiers, gaining any new ones (such as for elf or dwarf forms).
Son_Of_Cthulhu
06-29-04, 06:06 AM for an alternate form, the size of the dragon itself has little effects on the size of the dragon's alternate form. if it is a wyrmling, it's alt. form would be a small child, but if it is a great wyrm, the alt. form would probably be an elderly person. and with the stat changes, the dragon keeps all of their original stats, but loses their natural armor bonus, size modifiers, fly speed and distance, and other draconic abilities that the alternate form would not possess.
Noria Merfolk Mage
06-29-04, 04:49 PM Originally posted by Zif
If a dragon NPC took an alternate form, they would have all 10's in that form because regular monsters have average stats for their race. That's the purpose of the "draconic polymorph". If a PC dragon takes the alternate form, they definately keep their rolled stats and remove their dragon stat modifiers, gaining any new ones (such as for elf or dwarf forms).

Thats what I meant. Is this an official ruling, or just IYO????
tridiak
07-05-04, 09:41 AM For physical stats, add their age level to Str & Con. Dex remains the same.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chronic Alcoholic 06-20-04, 05:09 PM	Ok, I was thinking about allowing one of my players play a Silver Dragon using the rules in Dragon Magazine #320. The party is at 3rd level as is. He was thinking about staying in humanoid form (elf or human) to begin with (very usual for silver dragons) and the rest of the group won't know about his true identity to begin with. Here is my questions, what will his physical stats be when in other form, will his natural ac work there, can he use armor and does that stack with natural ac, what happens to his clothes when he changes back into dragon. Basicly i would like to learn have it really works with the alternate forms.
Insanity 06-20-04, 07:55 PM	I believe he would have the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) of an average member of that race. His mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) would remain the same. I doubt he would have his natural armor bonus, and should be able to wear armor and weapons. He could cast spells, as a humanoid form is one able make the verbal and somatic components.
Chronic Alcoholic 06-20-04, 11:09 PM	Well I stole this from Rules of the game column Alternate Form This supernatural special quality works much like the polymorph spell; here's an overview, with the differences between the alternate form ability and the polymorph spell called out. Unlike polymorph, the creature is limited to the assumed forms specified in the creature's description. Unlike polymorph, the creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form. The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. Unlike polymorph, the creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or supernatural attacks of its new form. The creature gains the physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) of its original form. Unlike polymorph, the creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. Unlike polymorph, the creature does not regain any lost hit points from changing form. The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. See Part Two for other notes on spellcasting when in an assumed form. The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. Should answer most my questions I guess.
Noria Merfolk Mage 06-22-04, 11:57 AM	The only real issue I would have is the way this would effect your ability scores. The character is question would be stuck with Str 10, Dex 10 and Con 10 basically the whole time. This would, quite simply, suck rocks. Would houseruling that part to say that you change to the new race's ability score mods, if they are less than your own, be ok??? That way you could at least keep the stats you rolled 4d6 for. This is probably what I would do if one of my PCs went for these classes.
jagggar 06-22-04, 01:13 PM	I second the motion to let him have what he rolled for physical ablities with the alternate form's racial modifiers. It just makes sense.
Pasquirlio 06-22-04, 02:42 PM	Actually the draconomicon has a ruling on that(well it's a dragon only spell called draconic polymorph so I use that version for the built in ability as well. It's basically applying the avergage stats of a member of that race but with(like the half dragon template) +8 Str, +0 Dex and +2 con. However the new form can't havemore HD than the original form to a maximum of 20 HD. If you feel like using this as a guideline.
Pasquirlio 06-22-04, 03:20 PM	Of course that ruling isn't really logical for my favourite the steel dragon. I love the little things but their physical stats are way beneath the dragon norm. A polymorfed steel would get a str increase from this use. So i usually apply the rule depending on the dragon's type and age.
Noria Merfolk Mage 06-22-04, 03:45 PM	I wouldn't go that far, but certainly if a person is a melee fighter (as someone with a dragon's BAB likely is), I wouldn't see them penalised just so that they can fit in in the party. The alternate form should just change their racial mods, not their total scores. That balances the usefullness fo the ability to fit in with the power of the standard draconic form.
jagggar 06-23-04, 02:32 PM	Originally posted by Noria Merfolk Mage I wouldn't go that far, but certainly if a person is a melee fighter (as someone with a dragon's BAB likely is), I wouldn't see them penalised just so that they can fit in in the party. The alternate form should just change their racial mods, not their total scores. That balances the usefullness fo the ability to fit in with the power of the standard draconic form. What about when you get older, and hence, bigger. That doesn't account for size changes.
Noria Merfolk Mage 06-23-04, 04:19 PM	How do you mean?? In the dragons natural form, the ability changes as you grow are built into the monster class progression. Also, they're seperate from the abilities in your alternate form, which are decided by the alternate form chosen. I don't quite get your point.
Zif 06-28-04, 09:17 AM	If a dragon NPC took an alternate form, they would have all 10's in that form because regular monsters have average stats for their race. That's the purpose of the "draconic polymorph". If a PC dragon takes the alternate form, they definately keep their rolled stats and remove their dragon stat modifiers, gaining any new ones (such as for elf or dwarf forms).
Son_Of_Cthulhu 06-29-04, 06:06 AM	for an alternate form, the size of the dragon itself has little effects on the size of the dragon's alternate form. if it is a wyrmling, it's alt. form would be a small child, but if it is a great wyrm, the alt. form would probably be an elderly person. and with the stat changes, the dragon keeps all of their original stats, but loses their natural armor bonus, size modifiers, fly speed and distance, and other draconic abilities that the alternate form would not possess.
Noria Merfolk Mage 06-29-04, 04:49 PM	Originally posted by Zif If a dragon NPC took an alternate form, they would have all 10's in that form because regular monsters have average stats for their race. That's the purpose of the "draconic polymorph". If a PC dragon takes the alternate form, they definately keep their rolled stats and remove their dragon stat modifiers, gaining any new ones (such as for elf or dwarf forms). Thats what I meant. Is this an official ruling, or just IYO????
tridiak 07-05-04, 09:41 AM	For physical stats, add their age level to Str & Con. Dex remains the same.