Dragon's CR & LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon's CR & LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Khaan
08-12-05, 01:36 PM hi,

(the following data comes from Draconomicon ; by "basic" i mean without any advancement)
A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's CR is 5.
A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's ECL is 12 (8HD ; LA +4).

I create a party with 4 basic Wyrmling Gold Dragons (Party Level is 12).
I create an encounter with 4 basic Wyrmling Gold Dragons. (4 * (CR 5) = CR 9 (according to my 3.0 DMG at least)).

I throw my level 12 party into my CR 9 encounter and ... you can imagine what follows ...

Did I miss something ?

To say things differently:
A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's HD is 8.
A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's CR is 5 i.e. less than 8. usualy CR is less than HD when the creature has "quite" bad characteristics.
A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's ECL is 12 i.e. more than 8. usualy ECL is more than HD when the creature has "quite" good characteristics.

Once again: did I miss something ?

thanks,

Khaan
Kayli
08-12-05, 01:54 PM Dragons deffinetly need a LA, they have Breath Weapon, can fly, Boostd Stats across the board, Best BaB, High Skills, Best Saves, 3 attacks (or more as they age), etc. etc. etc.

As For CR. These are calculated very differently then they are for PC Lvls and it is a mistake to think that they are equivelent. CR are only loosely based on HD. The Guidelines for Monster Creation suggest that HD should be no less then CR and probably not more then 3 times the CR

As for Wyrmling Gold Dragons, lets see where this fits in with these guildelines. CR 5, HD spread of 5 to 15 HD. WyGlDr has 8 HD, that is a lot closer to 5 then it is to 15. That would suggest at least a middeling monster. If you look at most monsters they're HD is usually close to 2xCR. The WyGlDr is lower then this, which implys a powerful monster and not a middling one either.
Khaan
08-12-05, 02:25 PM But then I do not understand how my 12th level party (of 4 adventurers) gets anhilated 50% of the time by a 9th level encounter when it is said that for a 12th level party (of 4 adventurers), a 12th level encounter should be a fair one (and thus a 9th level a realy easy one).

Just let's take an other example: I want to play with trolls !
Troll's have an LA+8 (Thus my four-membered-party's level is 8 with no class level). Let's find 4 other similar trolls (4 * (CR 5) = CR 9): this is a 9th level encounter. For my 8th level party, an 8th level encounter would be a fair one. But this one is 9th level, a bit harder and that "bit harder" can explain that 50% of the time, my party gets killed.
note: in fact 50% failure can sound a bit excessive for a CR just 1 higher than party level ... but, no problem: because in fact my 8th level party is made of super-elite-trolls who's inteligence score has been rised according to the DMG and their 1st HD is maximised.

Same test with Minautaurs: 4 * (CR 4 ) = CR 8 vs LA +8
Same test with Ogres: 4 * (CR 2) = CR 5 or 6 vs LA +5

I understand dragons need a LA, but then their CR is quite lower than it should be ...
Fiery_Overlord
08-12-05, 02:40 PM CR is assumed that the creatures are played like suicidally antagonistic monsters not proactive thinking individuals.

This is why it is different from ECL.
Derren S.
08-12-05, 02:53 PM Don't forget to give your PCs rolled stats and equipment for a Lvl 12 character.

But yes, there is a problem with the LA system as most LAs were artifically increased to promote "normal" PCs.
Khaan
08-12-05, 03:22 PM suicidally antagonistic monsters
well according to Draconomicon it is not quite the dragon's behaviour...
rolled stats
yeah, that's something not quite defind anywhere I look... can't find the ability adjustements needed and even if there are none for wyrmlings... a gold and a white wyrmling should have quite different ones
equipment
that's a point for sure
Derren S.
08-12-05, 03:29 PM yeah, that's something not quite defind anywhere I look... can't find the ability adjustements needed and even if there are none for wyrmlings... a gold and a white wyrmling should have quite different ones

Take the stats in the MM, subtract 10 or 11 so that you get an even number and that are your ability adjustments.

So a gold wyrmling would have +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha and 2 ability increases.
Kayli
08-12-05, 03:34 PM One thing you have forgoten is that they are supposed to start with 1 lvl in a PC Class, so those WyGlDr should be 13 lvl, not 12. the Minotaur should be 9 lvl not 8, etc.

As for determining the Stat Adj. Dragons have stats of base stats of 11,10,11,10,11,10. Subtract those numbers from those listed in the MM for the Wyrmling GlDr. Then becuase they have 8 HD Subtract two more from str. That is their Stat Bonus'

So Wyrm Gold Dragon Stat Bonus' would be
Str:+4
Dex:+0
Con:+4
Int:+4
Wis:+4
Cha:+4
Then the Player gets to add +1 twice to any combination of abilities he likes for haveing 8 HD

If the Players are dying 50% of the Time then they are playing the encounter poorly, or have very baaad luck with the die. Having said that, the party should use up 1/4 of their resources (including hp) in each encounter of CR = to their party lvl.
Algorithm_X
08-12-05, 03:35 PM CR is assumed that the creatures are played like suicidally antagonistic monsters not proactive thinking individuals.

This is why it is different from ECL.

While I don't agree that is a proper way to run NPCs, I will concede having a real person giving concetrated thought behind each character is much more effective than the divided attention the DM gives to each aspect of an encounter. PCs in standard games are much more proactive than NPC it seems. I don't run my NPCs like suicidally antagonistic monsters, however I run a low combat encounter campaign, and the PCs expend much more resources than listed for a the standard CR listed for such an encounter.
Kayli
08-12-05, 03:36 PM CR also tend to break down when you start adding in many monsters.
Derren S.
08-12-05, 03:40 PM One thing you have forgoten is that they are supposed to start with 1 lvl in a PC Class, so those WyGlDr should be 13 lvl, not 12. the Minotaur should be 9 lvl not 8, etc.

Where is that stated?

Also you could simply assume that the PC wyrmlings just finished their monster class then they would not have a PHB class.
Kayli
08-13-05, 02:30 AM Where is that stated?

Also you could simply assume that the PC wyrmlings just finished their monster class then they would not have a PHB class.

I have yet to see an example where one can start a PC with out any class lvls. The Specific example in the Drac shows Kyrst joining a party as a 13 lvl char, with 1 lvl of Paladin, and not as a 12 lvl char working towards 1 lvl of paladin.
Snake87
08-13-05, 03:38 AM Just mod the CR, your party wont get 2541614312 levels for killing something (somethings) of their own CR. Unless they are like 4 Barbarians with toothpicks wearing ski jackets or something.
Khaan
08-13-05, 07:52 AM I have yet to see an example where one can start a PC with out any class lvls. The Specific example in the Drac shows Kyrst joining a party as a 13 lvl char, with 1 lvl of Paladin, and not as a 12 lvl char working towards 1 lvl of paladin. then let's add 1 paladin level to the 4 encountered onestoo, it would probably rise the EL of something like 1 abd the problem would be the same

@ Kayli & Derren S. > ok perhaps this could be worked out for wyrmlings (even if I am not convinced the +2 points for being 8hd works for dragons too because later, they get much more than +1 / 4hd)

but the same way i don't like the example in Draco because it only forces the character to take 1 dragon level / age category... that would make ad absurdum a young dragon of ECL 20 with +9 natural armor when other gold dragons would have +15 (+13 +2 because of advancement). that would mean that our dragon's scales are less effectives because he trained as a paladin...
and as i pointed out, the dragon's abilities do increase faster than +1 / 4 hd, if we allow this faster increase just when dragon levels are taken, our sample creature would once again have much worse abilities than his fellows... because it trained as a paladin
Snake87
08-13-05, 12:07 PM When it comes to Dragons I have developed a level adjustment formula because they are just too unbalanced otherwise. Copied from my other thread:

'Small' Dragons (Dragons that start as Tiny): 2 + 1 per every 2 Age Categories.
'Normal' Dragons (Dragons that start as Small): 3 + 1 per every 2 Age Categories.
'Large' Dragons (Dragons that start as Medium): 4 + 1 per every 2 Age Categories.

Based on this information I simply raise the CR of the monster an amount equal to their level adjustment. That makes sense that their ECL would equal their CR, at least most of the time. When they get larger the CR should balance out with party power using this method.

If you Dragon monster has class levels, add +1 per class level. Unless hes got like 2 levels of wizard which counteract most of his abilities (he already gets effective sorcerer levels at high dragon age categories), I'd add only +1 for that. Depending on how high it is.
Gilean
08-13-05, 12:50 PM LA is intrinsically flawed. With a lot of modding, CR = HD = ECL can be achieved, though with high levels for dragons and outsiders.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaan 08-12-05, 01:36 PM	hi, (the following data comes from Draconomicon ; by "basic" i mean without any advancement) A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's CR is 5. A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's ECL is 12 (8HD ; LA +4). I create a party with 4 basic Wyrmling Gold Dragons (Party Level is 12). I create an encounter with 4 basic Wyrmling Gold Dragons. (4 * (CR 5) = CR 9 (according to my 3.0 DMG at least)). I throw my level 12 party into my CR 9 encounter and ... you can imagine what follows ... Did I miss something ? To say things differently: A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's HD is 8. A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's CR is 5 i.e. less than 8. usualy CR is less than HD when the creature has "quite" bad characteristics. A basic Wyrmling Gold Dragon's ECL is 12 i.e. more than 8. usualy ECL is more than HD when the creature has "quite" good characteristics. Once again: did I miss something ? thanks, Khaan
Kayli 08-12-05, 01:54 PM	Dragons deffinetly need a LA, they have Breath Weapon, can fly, Boostd Stats across the board, Best BaB, High Skills, Best Saves, 3 attacks (or more as they age), etc. etc. etc. As For CR. These are calculated very differently then they are for PC Lvls and it is a mistake to think that they are equivelent. CR are only loosely based on HD. The Guidelines for Monster Creation suggest that HD should be no less then CR and probably not more then 3 times the CR As for Wyrmling Gold Dragons, lets see where this fits in with these guildelines. CR 5, HD spread of 5 to 15 HD. WyGlDr has 8 HD, that is a lot closer to 5 then it is to 15. That would suggest at least a middeling monster. If you look at most monsters they're HD is usually close to 2xCR. The WyGlDr is lower then this, which implys a powerful monster and not a middling one either.
Khaan 08-12-05, 02:25 PM	But then I do not understand how my 12th level party (of 4 adventurers) gets anhilated 50% of the time by a 9th level encounter when it is said that for a 12th level party (of 4 adventurers), a 12th level encounter should be a fair one (and thus a 9th level a realy easy one). Just let's take an other example: I want to play with trolls ! Troll's have an LA+8 (Thus my four-membered-party's level is 8 with no class level). Let's find 4 other similar trolls (4 * (CR 5) = CR 9): this is a 9th level encounter. For my 8th level party, an 8th level encounter would be a fair one. But this one is 9th level, a bit harder and that "bit harder" can explain that 50% of the time, my party gets killed. note: in fact 50% failure can sound a bit excessive for a CR just 1 higher than party level ... but, no problem: because in fact my 8th level party is made of super-elite-trolls who's inteligence score has been rised according to the DMG and their 1st HD is maximised. Same test with Minautaurs: 4 * (CR 4 ) = CR 8 vs LA +8 Same test with Ogres: 4 * (CR 2) = CR 5 or 6 vs LA +5 I understand dragons need a LA, but then their CR is quite lower than it should be ...
Fiery_Overlord 08-12-05, 02:40 PM	CR is assumed that the creatures are played like suicidally antagonistic monsters not proactive thinking individuals. This is why it is different from ECL.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 02:53 PM	Don't forget to give your PCs rolled stats and equipment for a Lvl 12 character. But yes, there is a problem with the LA system as most LAs were artifically increased to promote "normal" PCs.
Khaan 08-12-05, 03:22 PM	suicidally antagonistic monsters well according to Draconomicon it is not quite the dragon's behaviour... rolled stats yeah, that's something not quite defind anywhere I look... can't find the ability adjustements needed and even if there are none for wyrmlings... a gold and a white wyrmling should have quite different ones equipment that's a point for sure
Derren S. 08-12-05, 03:29 PM	yeah, that's something not quite defind anywhere I look... can't find the ability adjustements needed and even if there are none for wyrmlings... a gold and a white wyrmling should have quite different ones Take the stats in the MM, subtract 10 or 11 so that you get an even number and that are your ability adjustments. So a gold wyrmling would have +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha and 2 ability increases.
Kayli 08-12-05, 03:34 PM	One thing you have forgoten is that they are supposed to start with 1 lvl in a PC Class, so those WyGlDr should be 13 lvl, not 12. the Minotaur should be 9 lvl not 8, etc. As for determining the Stat Adj. Dragons have stats of base stats of 11,10,11,10,11,10. Subtract those numbers from those listed in the MM for the Wyrmling GlDr. Then becuase they have 8 HD Subtract two more from str. That is their Stat Bonus' So Wyrm Gold Dragon Stat Bonus' would be Str:+4 Dex:+0 Con:+4 Int:+4 Wis:+4 Cha:+4 Then the Player gets to add +1 twice to any combination of abilities he likes for haveing 8 HD If the Players are dying 50% of the Time then they are playing the encounter poorly, or have very baaad luck with the die. Having said that, the party should use up 1/4 of their resources (including hp) in each encounter of CR = to their party lvl.
Algorithm_X 08-12-05, 03:35 PM	CR is assumed that the creatures are played like suicidally antagonistic monsters not proactive thinking individuals. This is why it is different from ECL. While I don't agree that is a proper way to run NPCs, I will concede having a real person giving concetrated thought behind each character is much more effective than the divided attention the DM gives to each aspect of an encounter. PCs in standard games are much more proactive than NPC it seems. I don't run my NPCs like suicidally antagonistic monsters, however I run a low combat encounter campaign, and the PCs expend much more resources than listed for a the standard CR listed for such an encounter.
Kayli 08-12-05, 03:36 PM	CR also tend to break down when you start adding in many monsters.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 03:40 PM	One thing you have forgoten is that they are supposed to start with 1 lvl in a PC Class, so those WyGlDr should be 13 lvl, not 12. the Minotaur should be 9 lvl not 8, etc. Where is that stated? Also you could simply assume that the PC wyrmlings just finished their monster class then they would not have a PHB class.
Kayli 08-13-05, 02:30 AM	Where is that stated? Also you could simply assume that the PC wyrmlings just finished their monster class then they would not have a PHB class. I have yet to see an example where one can start a PC with out any class lvls. The Specific example in the Drac shows Kyrst joining a party as a 13 lvl char, with 1 lvl of Paladin, and not as a 12 lvl char working towards 1 lvl of paladin.
Snake87 08-13-05, 03:38 AM	Just mod the CR, your party wont get 2541614312 levels for killing something (somethings) of their own CR. Unless they are like 4 Barbarians with toothpicks wearing ski jackets or something.
Khaan 08-13-05, 07:52 AM	I have yet to see an example where one can start a PC with out any class lvls. The Specific example in the Drac shows Kyrst joining a party as a 13 lvl char, with 1 lvl of Paladin, and not as a 12 lvl char working towards 1 lvl of paladin. then let's add 1 paladin level to the 4 encountered onestoo, it would probably rise the EL of something like 1 abd the problem would be the same @ Kayli & Derren S. > ok perhaps this could be worked out for wyrmlings (even if I am not convinced the +2 points for being 8hd works for dragons too because later, they get much more than +1 / 4hd) but the same way i don't like the example in Draco because it only forces the character to take 1 dragon level / age category... that would make ad absurdum a young dragon of ECL 20 with +9 natural armor when other gold dragons would have +15 (+13 +2 because of advancement). that would mean that our dragon's scales are less effectives because he trained as a paladin... and as i pointed out, the dragon's abilities do increase faster than +1 / 4 hd, if we allow this faster increase just when dragon levels are taken, our sample creature would once again have much worse abilities than his fellows... because it trained as a paladin
Snake87 08-13-05, 12:07 PM	When it comes to Dragons I have developed a level adjustment formula because they are just too unbalanced otherwise. Copied from my other thread: 'Small' Dragons (Dragons that start as Tiny): 2 + 1 per every 2 Age Categories. 'Normal' Dragons (Dragons that start as Small): 3 + 1 per every 2 Age Categories. 'Large' Dragons (Dragons that start as Medium): 4 + 1 per every 2 Age Categories. Based on this information I simply raise the CR of the monster an amount equal to their level adjustment. That makes sense that their ECL would equal their CR, at least most of the time. When they get larger the CR should balance out with party power using this method. If you Dragon monster has class levels, add +1 per class level. Unless hes got like 2 levels of wizard which counteract most of his abilities (he already gets effective sorcerer levels at high dragon age categories), I'd add only +1 for that. Depending on how high it is.
Gilean 08-13-05, 12:50 PM	LA is intrinsically flawed. With a lot of modding, CR = HD = ECL can be achieved, though with high levels for dragons and outsiders.