Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Parrex 09-18-06, 02:50 PM	I've been working on a method of Dragon Slaying (universal for all dragons) and I want to see if there is anything wrong with it. Every dragon has a Dexterity score of 10. Terinav Root is an injury poison with a DC of 16, which costs I believe 750 gp per dose and has the primary effect of 1d6 Dexterity damage, and a secondary effect of 2d6 dexterity damage. With the addition of Increase Virulence a level 2 Spell from Player's Handbook 2 with a casting time of 1 minute and a duration of 1 minute/caster level with the effect of adding +2 to the DC of a single dose of poison. A scroll written by a level ten caster would cost 25 x2(spell level) x5(caster level)=250 gp. Recruiting 5 level 6 rogue/ level 1 assassin for a single day costs 27 gp a piece or 135 gp, and recruiting twenty level 5 wizards would cost 21 gp a piece or 420 gp. The wizards each cast Increase Virulence on each of the 5 vials, expending 50 scrolls. The assassins apply the poison, and ready an action to fire at the dragon in question while hiding and studying their target for three rounds etc. etc. The DC of the Poison at this point is 56, which exceeds the maximum fortitude save of an Great Wyrm red dragon for example by 4. Failing these saves would result in an immediate 10d6 Dexterity damage, which ought to leave any dragon with a Dexterity score of 0 resulting in instant paralysis, without actually being a paralysis effect, a minute later the dragon would be allowed a second fortitude save to avoid the secondary 5d6 dexterity damage. Is there any flaw in my plan I'm not aware of? Assuming that at least one member of your party has alchemy, scribe scroll, knowledge (arcane), and the ability to cast second level spells, a DM could deny you neither the character knowledge nor the materials required for this advent, and further these spells could be cast within an extraplanar sanctuary to avoid the dragons scrying ability, and to prepare the attack in safety. The overall cost would be Terinav Poison through craft 325 gp x5= 1625 gp Increase Virulence Scrolls through scribe scroll 125 gp x100= 12,500 gp Assassins 27 gp x5= 135 gp Wizards 21 gp x20= 420 gp -------------------------------------------------------------------- Total 14,680 gp less than the cost of a major wondrous item, something you would typically find in a Great Wyrm hoard. 3x CR 26 treasure = 240,000 gp +36 major magic items. anything to add?
Khael 09-18-06, 02:57 PM	Your DM could however rule the spell cannot effect a vial more than once as it has received a magical enhancement, which usually do not stack. Namely a +1/+1/+1 effect from three magic weapon spells does not a +3 weapon make. In other words after the first casting, all you ever get is a DC 18 vial.
Zaistars69 09-18-06, 03:22 PM	Not to mention the fact that hiding from a great wyrm anything is more difficult then most level 7 characters can pull off. Edit: Any level 7 characters
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 05:00 PM	ok well right off the bat... 1.90% of enchantments don't stack 2.You'd have to have a blind, deaf and noseless dragon for a level 7 charcter to have a chance in hell of getting within range... 3.I don't see anything here about beating the dragon's AC as from my understading the poison would only work if all the bolts go through 4.I haven't played under a DM yet that uses the printed version of any creature greater then say an Orc Warrior, it's just not fun. Now if you wanted a flawless plan for killing any dragon....find the greatest team of 6 heros in the land and sell them your soul for the target dragons hoarde and hope they have use for you... Or hire a small army of assassins with +4 or above bows, the sniper shot spell and a large number of Greater Dragon Bane arrows/bolts...and hope you don't simply add to the dragons hoarde...
Sildatorak 09-18-06, 11:49 PM	Is there any flaw in my plan I'm not aware of? I think the part where you are alone with a huge treasure and 5 evilly-aligned individuals who are known to kill for money is a significant flaw in the plan.
Insane Pixie 09-18-06, 11:54 PM	I think the part where you are alone with a huge treasure and 5 evilly-aligned individuals who are known to kill for money is a significant flaw in the plan. This is so sigged. Sigged hard.
dok 09-19-06, 12:48 AM	With the addition of Increase Virulence a level 2 Spell from Player's Handbook 2 with a casting time of 1 minute and a duration of 1 minute/caster level with the effect of adding +2 to the DC of a single dose of poison. A scroll written by a level ten caster would cost 25 x2(spell level) x5(caster level)=250 gp. No. A scroll written by a 5th level caster would cost 250 gp. A scroll written by a 10th level caster would cost 500 gp. But I'll assume you meant 5th level, and the 'level ten' is a typo. Recruiting 5 level 6 rogue/ level 1 assassin for a single day costs 27 gp a piece or 135 gp, and recruiting twenty level 5 wizards would cost 21 gp a piece or 420 gp. I'm rather curious how you came to these numbers, since the DMG doesn't list prices for "recruiting" NPCs. The DMG2 has guidelines however... The guildeines in the DMG2 very clearly state that multiclassed adventurers "can't be hired simply with money" (DMG2, pp154), which means Assassins can't simply be plucked out of the air. Ignoring that, the guideline for pricing an "adventurer" is as follows: Typically an Adventurer's daily fee in gold pieces equals her character level squared, plus a split of any treasure. So a single level-5 wizard for 1 day should cost 25 gp (5*5), and a single level level-6 rogue/level-1 assassin should cost 49 gp per day (7*7). Twenty 5th-level wizards should then cost 500 gp for a day's service, plus each getting one-half share of the dragon's treasure. Your five assassins should cost you 245 gp, with each wanting a half-share. The wizards each cast Increase Virulence on each of the 5 vials, expending 50 scrolls. And here's where your plan falls apart. Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). Increasure Virulence targets a single dose of poison. Just like multiple castings of stoneskin or protection from fire don't stack, multiple castings of increase virulence won't stack. Repeated castings of non-instantaneous spells don't stack. The assassins apply the poison, and ready an action to fire at the dragon in question while hiding and studying their target for three rounds etc. etc. Wow. That's got to be the most absurd thing I've read in a long while... Well, first of all, you can't "ready an action" unless you're in combat. So unless these assassins are approaching while you're fighting the dragon, (or someone else is) they can't "ready" anything. So the assassins apply the poison to magical weapons (because injury poison won't work if you don't deal damage), move to within 30 ft. of the dragon, unnoticed by it's blindsense and Spot & Listen rolls, then study it for 3 rounds while the dragon remains either oblivious to their presence, or unaware that they are enemies. Then, all five assassins fire at the dragon, and they all hit it's AC with their +4 BAB and +1 weapons. Failing these saves would result in an immediate 10d6 Dexterity damage... No. The initial damage of the poison is 1d6; if five assassins hit with five poisoned weapons, that would be 5d6 damage initially... Is there any flaw in my plan I'm not aware of? Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha Assuming that at least one member of your party has alchemy, scribe scroll, knowledge (arcane), and the ability to cast second level spells, a DM could deny you neither the character knowledge nor the materials required for this advent A DM couldn't "deny you" the ability to hire ten NPC wizards and five NPC assassins? Really? and further these spells could be cast within an extraplanar sanctuary to avoid the dragons scrying ability, and to prepare the attack in safety. Except that the Assassins need three rounds of studying the dragon with the dragon unaware of their presence or unaware that they are enemies! Scrying won't work, unless each of the assassins can scry, and the dragon fails all it's saving throws and SR checks against the scrying. less than the cost of a major wondrous item, something you would typically find in a Great Wyrm hoard. 3x CR 26 treasure = 240,000 gp +36 major magic items. Except, of course, that you're losing a minimum of two and a half-shares of the treasure to the Assassins, and unless you can teleport yourself & all the assassins into the lair leaving the wizards safe, they'd want another five shares split between the ten of them. So that's a total of of 7 and one-half shares owed to hirelings. anything to add? Well, in addition to having a spell work differently than it normally does, (stacking) and in addition to having less than four minutes from the time casting is over to when the Assassins must attack, and in addition to ignoring the dragon's Blindsense, Spot & Listen rolls to detect the assassins, and in addition to ignoring the gross discrepancy between the Assassin's attack rolls and the dragon's AC, and in addition to ignorning the dragon's DR, and in addition to understating the costs of hirelings & scrolls... You can do this a lot easier: 1.) Evil Cleric 13th level+ Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD) + Empower Spell + (Divine Metamagic (CD) + Fortify Spell (CA)). Assuming no charisma bonus and using only a 4th level spell slot, using Divine Metamagic to power Fortify spell means a +6 to caster level checks. (using a 7th level spell slot means a total +12 to caster level checks) 1.5 x 5d4 Dexterity damage means it's possible to deal only 7 or 9 Dexterity damage, but there's less than a 1% chance of that happening. And that's one action, so you could follow it up with a Quickened finger darts, burning more turning checks as appropriate for Fortify Spell. Don't like evil? Use Shivering Touch (Frostburn) with Reach Spell (CD) and Sudden Maximize (CA) for a 5th level spell slot. Mix in Divine Metamagic with Fortify spell to overcome SR, and you're dealing 18 points of Dexterity Damage.
Khael 09-19-06, 04:09 AM	1.) Evil Cleric 13th level+ Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD) + Empower Spell + (Divine Metamagic (CD) + Fortify Spell (CA)). Assuming no charisma bonus and using only a 4th level spell slot, using Divine Metamagic to power Fortify spell means a +6 to caster level checks. (using a 7th level spell slot means a total +12 to caster level checks) 1.5 x 5d4 Dexterity damage means it's possible to deal only 7 or 9 Dexterity damage, but there's less than a 1% chance of that happening. And that's one action, so you could follow it up with a Quickened finger darts, burning more turning checks as appropriate for Fortify Spell. Don't like evil? Use Shivering Touch (Frostburn) with Reach Spell (CD) and Sudden Maximize (CA) for a 5th level spell slot. Mix in Divine Metamagic with Fortify spell to overcome SR, and you're dealing 18 points of Dexterity Damage. Better one that, except for the part where the DM rules you cannot collect the treasure as you have no fingers...(Yes, this shouldn't happen but it is an important note if someone gets trigger happy.)
Roivas 09-19-06, 05:08 AM	Dragon slaying is a time honored adventurer tradition. Trying to make it easy makes fighting dragons a zero bragging rights experiance. Making a dragon fight as hard as possible is a lot more much. Try fighting the dragon outside, on a moonless night, without a ranged weapon. If you win you are heroed, the loss just gets chaulked up to idiocy. Seriously though, I've found a good start to a dragon fight is ray of clumsiness [a second level spell from SC with no save]. On max roll it can lower it's AC by 5 to give the melee peoples a good reason to power attack. Exploiting their energy weakness is too obvious [and doesn't work on some dragons], plus the dragon will fortify against any of it's well known weaknesses. A fun build for a true dragon slayer is a ranger with a scythe or heavy pick, improved critical, and the feat tree in the dragonomic to increase the crit multiplier from x4 to x7. Giving the dragon killer a chance to cut a dragon down in a single devistating blow. You need to get lucky, but if it works it makes a great story, much better than beating the thing with one little spell.
Khael 09-19-06, 05:12 AM	A fun build for a true dragon slayer is a ranger with a scythe or heavy pick, improved critical, and the feat tree in the dragonomic to increase the crit multiplier from x4 to x7. Giving the dragon killer a chance to cut a dragon down in a single devistating blow. You need to get lucky, but if it works it makes a great story, much better than beating the thing with one little spell. What about the vassal of Bahamut? Make the dragon pay for getting in close.
Parrex 09-19-06, 04:46 PM	Alright, I see several flaws in my plan, however... Terinav Root is a contact poison not an injury poison. I was mistaken on my figures for hirelings, I based them on the dungeon-master's guide rules concerning mercenaries, and did not take into account specialized levels. The price still isn't outrageous though. However, the rarity of assassins does pose a problem, I've put further thought into that issue. Personally scribed scrolls cost half as much, because you only expend half the base price in gp + 1/25 the base price in xp. So the price would be 250 you're right. Add an 12,500 gp to the cost, that's still less than a major wondrous item. I meant ten, because that gives you an extra five minutes beyond the final casting time for all the spells on all the vials, to coordinate your shots. I did assume that battle would have commenced allowing the assassins to ready their shots to fire on the same initiative. They would be hiding roughly two range increments of a heavy crossbow (240 ft.) away from the dragon, outside the range of both the dragon's blindsense and keensenses, causing a -24 penalty to the dragon's spot check, they would be still and thus a listen check would not be necessary, furthermore the dragon would be distracted by other attackers. Difficulty Class is not an attribute, it's a target number, and the addition to the DC is not reffered to as any sort of bonus, let alone a specific one that does not stack. Just as every ten feet of distance adds +1 to the DC of a competing spot check, each casting of the spell should be able to add +2 to the DC of a competing fortitude save, it does not affect the fortitude save directly, and is therefore not a penalty to an attribute. If you sack the assassins, obtaining level 5 spellcasters shouldn't be as much of an issue. Once the spells are cast, you could merely instruct them to apply the poison. The poison only inflicts Dexterity damage and won't kill them, preventing you from performing an evil act. There is also only a ten percent chance of self-poisoning during application, so only 2-5 spellcasters would be temporarily paralyzed. The firing line, which now consists of spellcasters are of high enough level to cast invisibility upon themselves, removing the necessity of a hide check, finally they need only hit a touch (due to the contact poison) flat-footed (due to the invisibility) AC of a colossal, which I believe is 2, which is ironically the BAB of a level 5 spellcaster, so a Dex of 14 would overcome the range penalty. The Death Attack is pretty unnecessary as is a Sneak Attack, they just need to hit the Dragon's massive bulk. There is a Typo or five in my original post, I was still working out a few details, somehow I mixed up the primary and secondary so it would be 5d6 Dex dam primary, and 10d6 Dex dam Secondary a minute later. However the DM trump card can be played, you all are correct. The DM could say I can't find any spellcasters all of a sudden. The DM could say that the penalty for possession of Terinav Root is death. The DM could say that the spell in question can only affect one vial once. The DM could say that the dragon's forty dragon buddies teleport in to save him. I know I forgot something else, help me out.
Parrex 09-19-06, 05:14 PM	Gold 240K gp + 36 magic items With my new NPC breakdown 240K gp split 24 ways (assuming a 4 player party) 10K a character, and roughly 1.5 magic items, draw straws. Or with a level 13 character with max ranks in Diplomacy and Charisma of 18 (say a sorceror or Bard) after the battles over, they could change the NPC's attitudes from Indifferent directly to helpful with a DC 30 Diplomacy check (16ranks, +4 bonus from Charisma, take 10 in unpressured circumstances, with plenty of time =30) convincing the money grubbing NPC's that the party deserves not 4% of the treasure but 80%, seeing as the party took the greater risk, organized the expedition, and provided all resources and equipment. Each NPC would then get 3,840 gp to account for the difference of not receiving the magic items. Considering this is 140 times their daily fee, I can't see why any NPC would pose an argument. If they all turn against the party, a fireball or two will take them all out, they're spellcasters.
kinem 09-19-06, 08:23 PM	It would be perfectly reasonable for the DM to rule that large enough creatures are not affected by small doses of poison, just as a dose that would kill an insect would be ignored by a human.
Insane Pixie 09-19-06, 08:38 PM	It would be perfectly reasonable for the DM to rule that large enough creatures are not affected by small doses of poison, just as a dose that would kill an insect would be ignored by a human. That's because a fly isn't going to have the Fort save of a Human. The rules assume that an enormously-sized Dragon (with enormous HD) would have the Fort save to resist it.
Sildatorak 09-19-06, 09:01 PM	ust as every ten feet of distance adds +1 to the DC of a competing spot check, each casting of the spell should be able to add +2 to the DC of a competing fortitude save, it does not affect the fortitude save directly, and is therefore not a penalty to an attribute. One of the attributes of the poison is its save DC. At the end of the stacking general rule, the "and other attributes" looks very tacked on, and strikes me as a butt-covering rule. The "other" aspect implies that attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, etc. are attributes, which is not the case if we are using the D&D definition of the word. This seems to be basically a general statement that doing the same thing again doesn't do any more good unless something specifies otherwise. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place: Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
dok 09-19-06, 09:29 PM	Personally scribed scrolls cost half as much, because you only expend half the base price in gp + 1/25 the base price in xp. So the price would be 250 you're right. Add an 12,500 gp to the cost, that's still less than a major wondrous item. Except that if you're scribing the scrolls, you're also paying XP, which you weren't including in your cost. They would be hiding roughly two range increments of a heavy crossbow (240 ft.) away from the dragon, outside the range of both the dragon's blindsense and keensenses, causing a -24 penalty to the dragon's spot check, they would be still and thus a listen check would not be necessary, furthermore the dragon would be distracted by other attackers. Technically, the penalty would be -23 (there is no penalty for opponents within 10 ft.) And since your benchmark is the biggest red dragon, I'll point out that it typically sports a +51 bonus to Spot checks. (40 HD, +3 ranks at 1st level, +8 Wisdom bonus) You're also presuming that the dragon is a.) in a lighted area, with no concealment b.) in an open area with at least 240 ft. of distance c.) never moving either towards or away any of the assassins Difficulty Class is not an attribute, it's a target number, and the addition to the DC is not reffered to as any sort of bonus, let alone a specific one that does not stack. Just as every ten feet of distance adds +1 to the DC of a competing spot check, each casting of the spell should be able to add +2 to the DC of a competing fortitude save, it does not affect the fortitude save directly, and is therefore not a penalty to an attribute. You're using terms like "attribute" and "target number" like they have some defined meaning. Is Armor Class an "attribute"? Because it's just a "target number" for your opponents. By that standard, Damage Reduction isn't an 'attribute' either (just a 'target number'), but multiple castings of stoneskin don't stack, either for DR, or for the amount of damage absorbed before the spell ends. Hit points aren't an 'attribute' by that standard, but multiple castings of false life don't stack. Casting haste twice doesn't give you two extra attacks with a full attack action. Casting blur twice doesn't give you two miss chances. Casting mirror image twice doesn't give you twice as many images. Non-instantaneous spells don't stack with themselves; that's the standard, and I've shown it in a half-dozen cases above. You're arguing an exception to that standard: show me a non-instantaneous spell (other than continuing damage) that does stack with itself. If I have a spell that grants a +2 bonus to Hardness for 10 minutes on a single item touched, and I cast that same spell twice, they overlap; that's the default rule. If I have one spell that grants a +2 bonus (unnamed) to Hardness for 10 minutes on a single item touched, and a different spell that grants a +2 (unnamed) bonus to Hardness, then you can argue that they stack. But the same spell cast twice doesn't stack with itself; that's the default in the RAW. If you sack the assassins, obtaining level 5 spellcasters shouldn't be as much of an issue. Except that you earlier said the scrolls had a caster level 10. So your level 5 spellcasters have a problem casting those. You need five 10th level casters. To make it easier, why don't we just say the scrolls are scribed with Extend Spell? That lets you keep using 5th level spellcasters. Once the spells are cast, you could merely instruct them to apply the poison. The poison only inflicts Dexterity damage and won't kill them, preventing you from performing an evil act. Who cares about evil acts? My solution was to use a Corrupt spell from the BoVD! Trust me, the ethics of poison use are the least of your worries. There is also only a ten percent chance of self-poisoning during application, so only 2-5 spellcasters would be temporarily paralyzed. It's actually only a 5% chance per application, but if a spellcaster does poison themselves, the poison is also used, which means you should probably have an extra dose or two of poison (with accompanying scrolls, etc.) The firing line, which now consists of spellcasters are of high enough level to cast invisibility upon themselves, removing the necessity of a hide check, Except the dragon still gets Spot & Listen checks to detect invisible creatures. Even with the -23 penalty (plus stationary dragon, etc. etc. etc.), the dragon automatically detects the presence of an invisible creature even at 310 ft., so I'd say a Hide check would be necessary, as would some sort of silence or move silently. finally they need only hit a touch (due to the contact poison) flat-footed (due to the invisibility) AC of a colossal, which I believe is 2, which is ironically the BAB of a level 5 spellcaster, so a Dex of 14 would overcome the range penalty. Well, don't forget that you're assuming PCs are fighting the dragon to keep it busy, so that's a -4 penalty for firing into melee. Also don't forget Dragon Fear; Big Red has a radius of 360 ft., and any Old Dragon has a radius of 240 ft., so that's another -2 penalty. And, to the ever-growing list of assumptions, we need to add that the dragon has neither concealment nor any magical protections in place. There is a Typo or five in my original post, I was still working out a few details, somehow I mixed up the primary and secondary so it would be 5d6 Dex dam primary, and 10d6 Dex dam Secondary a minute later. Which means it's possible (though not likely) that the primary damage fails to drop the dragon, which gives the dragon a full minute to cast delay poison/neutralize poison/heal. The DM could say I can't find any spellcasters all of a sudden. Well, to find five 5th level Wizards, you'd need at least a Large Town (and have to hire some 6th & 7th level spellcasters), or much more likely a Large City. The DM could also say you can't find any 5th level spellcasters interested in fighting a dragon for you! Sitting in a tower casting identify is one thing, having them go to a dragon's lair and fire a crossbow at a Collosal red dragon is another. The DM could say that the penalty for possession of Terinav Root is death. He could also say that you can't find the necessary raw materials to make Terinav Root poison. You know, like Terinav root... The DM could say that the spell in question can only affect one vial once. That's what the entire precident of rules say. Casting flame arrow twice on the same batch of arrows doesn't make them do +2d6 fire damage. I know I forgot something else, help me out. Sure. The dragon could have previously cast heroes feast or delay poison in effect for the day, making him immune to poison for 24 hours. Or it could just have a periapt of proof versus poison. The dragon could have smoke, fog, blur, displacement or any level of illumination less than full light, or some other concealing effect in place. The dragon could have cat's grace, haste, shield of faith, scintillating scales (draconomicon), or any number of other spells boosting its touch AC in place. The dragon could cast wall of fire, wall of ice, wall of stone, wall of force or wind wall, totally stopping crossbow bolts from getting through the wall. The dragon could cast antimagic field, negating the illegally-stacking increase virulence spell, dropping the DC back down to a level the dragon cannot fail. The dragon could fly in pretty much any given direction. Depending on the environment, a single move action could put the dragon in a location that blocks line of effect or grants concealment, or simply sput the dragon within breath weapon range of one or more wizards. They would not survive a single breath weapon. The dragon could use dimension door/teleport/ethereal jaunt to retreat, coming back to attack say, 10 minutes later. The dragon could use the Hover feat to grant itself full, nonmagical Concealment. (sure, the wizards could then cast true strike, but that means the dragon gets a round to fly forward & breathe on them) The dragon has a +51 to Spot and Listen, which means even at a distance of 320 ft., the dragon's lowest possible Spot or Listen check is 20. To put that in perspective, that means the dragon automatically succeeds on a Listen check to hear a spellcaster using a verbal component (DC 0) at 310 feet (-30) over the din of battle. (-20) But let's review the base plan: 1.) Have 10 spellcasters cast Increase Virulence from scrolls, five times each, over five vials of poison, and rule that the effect stacks with itself. 2.) Have five persons apply the poison to crossbow bolts without poisoning themselves (which would use up the poison) Within the next five minutes, 3.) Have five archers (possibly also the spellcasters) approach a fully-illuminated dragon in open ground, to within a distance of 240 ft. without the dragon moving, attacking, using any spells or magic items, or taking any other actions that would create cover, concealment, or protect the dragon in any way. Also, there are no other creatures in the area that could detect or in any way affect the spellcasters, or any other conditions that would impair the use of ranged weapons. 4.) Have all five archers fire into melee, possibly under the effects of dragon fear, with no automatic misses, at the still stationary, unprotected dragon. 5.) Have the dragon (with no additional bonuses to saving throws, and no magical protections or immunities) fail two or more saving throws, (remember, a natural 20 still saves) and have the total Dexterity damage be at least 10 points, or have the dragon suffer less than 10 Dex damage, but be totally & completely unable to use any spells/potions/wands of delay poison/neutralize poison/heal. I repeat my suggestion: 13th level Evil Cleric gets within 230 ft. With a +4 Charisma bonus, Fortify Spell, and Divine Metamagic, he can automatically overcome SR. No to-hit roll is even needed. With Lahm's Finger Darts and Maximize, he deals 20 Dexterity damage, more than enough to drop the dragon. 5 points of Strength damage later (can you say potions of lesser restoration) you have a helpless dragon.
Kothardarastrix 09-20-06, 06:19 AM	Dragon slaying is a time honored adventurer tradition. Trying to make it easy makes fighting dragons a zero bragging rights experiance. The problem with your statement is that you assume theres a way for someone to enact his plan before the dragon senses him, even then he has his enormous AC. Making a dragon fight as hard as possible is a lot more much. While I agree, beating a Great Wyrm that is specifically built to kill adventuring parties is fun, even a standard dragon that has reached Juvenile should be able to TPK a party with four adventurers of an ECL equal to its CR.
Parrex 09-20-06, 12:52 PM	I accept defeat. But I have to defend the parts of my plan that I don't see as flawed. I dropped the Assassins from my plan entirely, that is just an incredibly bad idea. I ran this plan by my DM, and he said that any Dragon that this would succeed against simply wouldn't have a hoard, because he'd be too stupid to collect one. Once again the dragon wouldn't hear or see the casting of Increase Virulence, because it is done within say a Mage's Private Sanctum. Spot isn't a class skill for big red, nor is listen, so his actual Spot and Listen would be 29after -23 for the distance, he would have 6, to overcome a DC of 20. Lighting up the dragon would be easy for the party, have a party member cast daylight, it would have absolutely no effect on the dragon, but it would present a glowing target. Difficulty Class-The target number that a player must meet or beat for a check or saving throw to succeed. Difficulty Classes other than those given in specific spell or item descriptions are set by the DM using the skill rules as a guideline. That's where I got the term target number from. I took attribute from the Stacking effects rule in the SRD. Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). And... surprise! surprise! right below that Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus. It specifically states within the spell that multiple castings of Haste do not stack. Blur grants the recipient concealment, just concealment, not any degree of concealment, just concealment. The numeric value is the effect of concealment, that's why that doesnt stack. The effect of stoneskin isn't an addition to your damage reduction but a type of damage reduction. I don't see why mirror image or false life couldn't be cast more than once. Thanks for the Extend Spell idea, that simplifies things. I care about evil acts. I thought it was 10%, but 5% makes things easier. For 32,000 gp extra I remove that small chance of failure. Finally, yes in case of failure the Dragon would chew me up.
Khael 09-20-06, 01:10 PM	Spot isn't a class skill for big red, nor is listen, so his actual Spot and Listen would be 29after -23 for the distance, he would have 6, to overcome a DC of 20. Tis false that: Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons.
Parrex 09-20-06, 02:41 PM	Got it... missed that part. But still, dropping back to 600 feet would make the check 59+20=79 vs. the Dragon's 51 spot check, beats it by 8, incurring a -8 penalty on ranged attacks, and -4 for firing into melee. Have each spellcaster cast true strike before approaching to attack. If even that's not enough, I can go up to ten range increments legally. This also solves for the dragon flying, (ready an action to fire once big red is within range) or moving closer or farther away from the archers (80 foot buffer zone, 600 extra range). I forgot to mention that scribing 100 level 2 scrolls at level 10 would cost 4x the base price of 1 scroll or 2000xp... not exactly a pittance, but definitely worth giving up. Obviously this plan would have to be enacted after drawing the red dragon out to a more open area where it would think to have the advantage, and ambushing it.
Kothardarastrix 09-20-06, 03:46 PM	Finally, yes in case of failure the Dragon would chew me up. In case of failure? You apparently don't understand what we are saying, unless your DM has the intelligence of a rock you ARE going to die! I've said it, and I'll say it again, either the Dragon TPKs or the DM needs to have his dice bag taken away for incompetence. Obviously this plan would have to be enacted after drawing the red dragon out to a more open area where it would think to have the advantage, and ambushing it. I assume you want to die then? Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT draw it into the open where it thinks it has an advantage; it does, you can't fly without a spell! Keep it in the dragons enclosed lair, not enough room to fly, but enough that you aren't forced to bunch up.
Khael 09-20-06, 05:12 PM	Obviously this plan would have to be enacted after drawing the red dragon out to a more open area where it would think to have the advantage, and ambushing it. It does. Remember any red dragon has sorcerer powers. In other words, you're moving under flight and invisibility? Any red up from adult can fly, can become invisible, can cast see invisibility, can dispel... In other words if you think you can trick a dragon that has a real horde, prepare for it to kebab you from behind regardless of where you are, while your hired crossbows get flamed by it's rival/kill its rival
Sildatorak 09-20-06, 06:58 PM	I forgot to mention that scribing 100 level 2 scrolls at level 10 would cost 4x the base price of 1 scroll or 2000xp... not exactly a pittance, but definitely worth giving up. Is it also worth giving up the 100 days worth of adventuring time?
kinem 09-20-06, 07:45 PM	That's because a fly isn't going to have the Fort save of a Human. The rules assume that an enormously-sized Dragon (with enormous HD) would have the Fort save to resist it. No, that's not enough. A fly would have a Fort save of at least -5, and probably higher if you actually stat one up. So by your logic, a poison with a 50% chance of affecting the fly would have at least a 25% chance of affecting an average commoner. That hardly seems to reflect the effect of the size difference. Same with the dragon.
dok 09-20-06, 08:40 PM	Your argument for stacking requires some pretty desperate rules-lawyering, and deliberate ignoring of rules. Here's the basic argument against stacking: From the Stacking rules in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects): Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target. Implied: Two or more spells with non-instantaneous durations do not work cumulatively when they affect the same target, unless the rules explicitly allow them to. The key word here is "cumulatively"; casting blur works with casting haste because they have no cumulative effect; they do not affect the same thing. Comparatively, casting blur with displacement does not have a Cumulative effect of either increasing the miss chance to 70% or causing two seperate rolls for a miss chance. Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. Implication: If two identical spells are operating on the same target, then only one applies. This same impliciation appears in all other stacking rules as well: Your argument is based solely on this text: Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus. Here's the problem: increase virulence does not grant a bonus! You make a poison in a vial or a creature more lethal. The DCs for all saving throws against the poison increase by 2 Notice the wording there. The spell does not "grant a +2 bonus to the poison's DC". It does not give a "+2 bonus", or provide a "bonus to the DC". The word "bonus" does not appear anywhere in the spell. Compare this to haste or bull's strength or farstrider or barkskin.
Parrex 09-21-06, 02:10 PM	I concede... I found the end-all, beat-all for our argument. Since the exact ruling cannot be specified one must assume the general rule applies. STACK Combine for a cumulative effect. In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack if they come from different sources and have different descriptors (or no descriptors at all), but do not stack if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus or worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. Spell effects that do not stack may overlap, coexist independently, or render one another irrelevant, depending on their exact effects. Source: PHB I still say that DC is neither a check, nor a roll, nor an attribute... however...