dragon spell casting... [Archive] - Wizards Community

dragon spell casting... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ninj4z
02-11-04, 01:12 PM Ok, so PC in the campaign is a silver dragon, who also has 3 levels in sorcerer. Now he found out last night that some dragons can select spells from the cleric spell list and from certain domains. Now, my question is, would he have to wait till he would innately get dragon casting(i think that's young for silver) to be able to select those spells, OR can he do it now? im saying he would have to wait, but imnot sure really.
Derren S.
02-11-04, 01:22 PM A though call.
I can't think of a rule for or against this.

I would say no and depending if they really need some cleric casting ability change it to yes.
SpellBinder
02-12-04, 04:08 AM Sounds like this is a silver dragon PC with addtional sorcerer class levels, right? If that's the case, then the way I'd handle it is that the dragon would have two seperate sorcerer spell lists, one from the class and one from being a dragon at older age categories. Clerical spells would only be accessable from the sorcerer spells available from just being a dragon.

Makes for a pretty powerful sorcerer that way. Uber amounts of arcane magic.
Derren S.
02-12-04, 04:11 AM Sorry, but it is officall that sorcerer levels and innate spellcasting stack.
SpellBinder
02-12-04, 04:16 AM Good to know, since I didn't.

Kinda pointless for most dragons to take sorcerer levels then (or at least several) since a lot of them push close to level 20 (don't some break it? I don't have my critter book handy at the moment).

Considering what you said, Derren, I'd guess then that the silver dragon in question would have to wait till he/she gained a sorcerer level from age before choosing clerical magic, then only adding more clerical spells with age and not sorcerer levels. Should help keep things balanced.
Derren S.
02-12-04, 04:23 AM Originally posted by SpellBinder
Good to know, since I didn't.

Kinda pointless for most dragons to take sorcerer levels then (or at least several) since a lot of them push close to level 20 (don't some break it? I don't have my critter book handy at the moment).

I disagree here. Sorcerer is the best class level for dragons to take because they gain more power from it than from any other class. And with epic rules now core there is no penalty for breaking the 20th caster level.
SpellBinder
02-12-04, 04:27 AM Unless there's info posted somewhere, don't you stop gaining spells once you hit 20th level? The last info I saw was that spell progression stopped at level 20, but your caster level would still continue to rise. Now I do know that for a dragon, getting a super high caster level would be a good idea, but when a great wyrm silver dragon has an effective sorcerer level of 19 (I believe), just one level of sorcerer as a class would cap off your spell power there and you'd have to go to wizard or bard (if you meet alignment requirements) to increase your list of arcane spells.

And yes, I know bards don't exactly qualify as arcane casters in their selection of spells.
Derren S.
02-12-04, 04:34 AM Yes, spells per day don't increase, but a high caster level can be deadly right by itself (Harder dispell, more damage on spells, Holy Word type spells,...)
Also with the right feat you can gain 10th and greater spell level which you can use for metamagic.

And do not forget, great wyrm isn't an age every dragon reaches and ssorcerer level are a big power boost at adult age.
SpellBinder
02-12-04, 04:40 AM Just my opinion here, as a dragon PC I'd choose a different class than sorcerer. Warmage would be cruel for additional spontaneous arcane magic (unless it too stacks with sorcerer levels? :(), or fighter or barbarian if you wanna go crazy in melee combat. (got a DM who's thinking about a more epic scale campaign, planning a silver dragon paladin or fighter for a character)

Sorcerer is just pretty poor choice to me for a dragon character (wizard is another story), sorry if anyone feels differently.
Derren S.
02-12-04, 04:46 AM Well, I rather give a sorcerer level to a dragon and with it access to higher level spells than a wizard level with a couple of extra 1st level spells. And when hitting 20th caster level start taking improves spell capacity for 10th and 11 spells.

And with the buffs the dragon can cast with the additional sorcerer level it is as strong as it has taken fighter or babarian level.

But noting speaks against taking other classes flavorwise, I just argument what would be best minmax wise.
Kayli
02-16-04, 09:44 PM Because of their Bonus to Abillities Dragons make pretty make good any class except rogue. But they make best sorcerers because they max out their Spell Selection with just a few levels of Sorcerer, and can gain Access to Epic Spells pretty Quickly. And when it comes to Magic, More Lvls makes stronger spells even if it doesn't mean more spells known or more spells per day.

As For When they can gain access to Clerical spells it is purely DM's Call. I see no rules one way or the other. But do remember that Dragons are restricted to only a few Clerical Domains, and don't have access to the whole gamut of Clerical spells. Also they must use one of their Spells Known for each Clerical Spell they want to have access to.

So Rule Away "Oh Mighty" DM and Be confident that what every Choice you make is the Right one. :angel:

Oh and if it is helpfull, I would go the same way you are thinking. No Clrecial Spells until he gets Bonus Sorcerer Lvls from Dragon Age Cat.
Derren S.
02-17-04, 02:16 AM False. Most dragons have acces to all clerical spels and some domainspells.
strenoth
02-17-04, 10:36 AM true, you just have to remember that every cure spell the dragon selects for his spells known is one less sorc spell he can put on hsi known spell list. It's not THAT much more powerful.
Derren S.
02-17-04, 10:45 AM Clerical spells are not only cures (but they are handy for sure) there are also many good buffspells which can make a dragon even stronger. A dragon simply doesn't need many offensive spells.
Maedhros Taredun
02-18-04, 11:26 AM Originally posted by Derren S.
False. Most dragons have acces to all clerical spels and some domainspells.

3.5E Monster Manual, Page 69: "A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated"... "Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists AS ARCANE SPELLS".

As far as I was able to determine from the MM, only the Blue, Red and Metallic dragons can do this- and for certain domains only- from two (brass dragon) to the silver (only dragon type that has access to 4 domains worth of spells).

They dont have access to cleric healing spells unless they appear in the domain.
Derren S.
02-18-04, 11:35 AM Read the specific dragon entries.

It says "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the ... domains."

So dragons can choose all generic cleric spells as known spells and in addition spells from certain domains.
Maedhros Taredun
02-18-04, 12:16 PM I stand corrected.
Kayli
02-18-04, 10:58 PM Don't Feel Bad, I made this mistake too.

Has Any one else noticed that Evil Dragons Get Totally Jacked! I Mean they live half as long, Have Access to Fewer Spells, With the Exception of Blue and Red they don't get Clerical Spells, I mean, what gives? They Should be a little more Balanced !

Was This Done for PC Benifit, So We Would't try and kill Matalics in Equal Numbers as Evil Ones? If any thing the Evil Dragons Should be Tougher. After all they Are Hunted More Frequently, and are more likely to kill each other off in battle then The Goods are, so it should be a survival of the fittest more so for evil Dragons then Good ones.

At least make it a fair fight between one Good and one Evil Dragon!
CrimsonPhoenix
02-21-04, 06:36 PM I noticed that too but I have no idea why. PCs probably don't need to be discouraged from killing metalics (why would you kill a possible ally). Evil dragons are the ones the PCs will fight against and a fight against a dragon (even if you are like our group and have 2 dragons on your side already) should be a hard fight. I do understand the better casting ability the metallics get, however, since they are more likely to share new discoveries with each other as far as spells go, while the chromatics stay to themselves.
RavinRay
02-22-04, 01:50 AM Well, if it's any consolation, all the fiendish planar dragons have spell resistance at wyrmling or very young ages already; the two good planar dragons start out at young adult. OTOH, both have higher SR's at great wyrm age. Then, the Tarterian, howling, and pyroclastic dragons all reach Colossal size at great wyrm (wyrm for howling); only the Oceanus dragon does so among the good dragons. And the fiendish dragons all have two breath weapons. So, take your campaign to the planes. Hmmm... why not cross-breed one of these with a chromatic if you want a really nasty villain?
Deaths-Warden
03-05-04, 12:13 PM Hi, I'm new.

Actually, I think it has to do with the dragons breeding cycles and whatnot.
Evil dragons are more numerous but die easier.
So... If was full scale war metties wouldn't necessarily win.
Thats my thought on it anyways.
Kayli
03-06-04, 01:54 AM That's good and all, except that evil dragons don't necissarly breed any faster the the metties do. In fact, Good Dragons are more likely to mate for life and to look after their young and see to it that they survive to young adulthood then evil ones and so have a lower mortality rate as well as having equal # of young. and being stronger and have higher spell casting capabilities and almost all can polymorph into a huminoid at wyrmling stage. Where as no evil dragon can do so with out choosing the polymorph spell when it becomes available to him from his spell progression.

As for spell Casting dragons don't learn spells like wizards do from research and scholasticism, but rather from spontanious insight, like eureaka! I know how to cast Lightning bolt! So sharing spell knowledge is not really an issue for spell progression, the way that it is for Wizards.

I say that the Weaker Good Dragons should havea spell progression tha tmatches that of the weaker evil dragons. And there is no reason that no single evil dragon can't poly morph natively into a huminoid form. Also the Good Dragons live for upto 2000 yrs longer then the evil ones. There is no reason given for why Evil Dragons surrender to the siren call of death so early in their lives when the Good Dragons do not. And don't blame it on batteling with other Evil Dragons the Surrrender of Twilight is a natural death, not one do to combat or disease.

A little leveling of the playing field is in order. After all, Balance in all things, this is the key to the continuation of the universe. Imbalance even towards the good causes bad things to happen.
Deaths-Warden
03-07-04, 05:21 PM Heh... A little lesson from the Kingpriest?
The words fiery mountain seem to ring a bell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ninj4z 02-11-04, 01:12 PM	Ok, so PC in the campaign is a silver dragon, who also has 3 levels in sorcerer. Now he found out last night that some dragons can select spells from the cleric spell list and from certain domains. Now, my question is, would he have to wait till he would innately get dragon casting(i think that's young for silver) to be able to select those spells, OR can he do it now? im saying he would have to wait, but imnot sure really.
Derren S. 02-11-04, 01:22 PM	A though call. I can't think of a rule for or against this. I would say no and depending if they really need some cleric casting ability change it to yes.
SpellBinder 02-12-04, 04:08 AM	Sounds like this is a silver dragon PC with addtional sorcerer class levels, right? If that's the case, then the way I'd handle it is that the dragon would have two seperate sorcerer spell lists, one from the class and one from being a dragon at older age categories. Clerical spells would only be accessable from the sorcerer spells available from just being a dragon. Makes for a pretty powerful sorcerer that way. Uber amounts of arcane magic.
Derren S. 02-12-04, 04:11 AM	Sorry, but it is officall that sorcerer levels and innate spellcasting stack.
SpellBinder 02-12-04, 04:16 AM	Good to know, since I didn't. Kinda pointless for most dragons to take sorcerer levels then (or at least several) since a lot of them push close to level 20 (don't some break it? I don't have my critter book handy at the moment). Considering what you said, Derren, I'd guess then that the silver dragon in question would have to wait till he/she gained a sorcerer level from age before choosing clerical magic, then only adding more clerical spells with age and not sorcerer levels. Should help keep things balanced.
Derren S. 02-12-04, 04:23 AM	Originally posted by SpellBinder Good to know, since I didn't. Kinda pointless for most dragons to take sorcerer levels then (or at least several) since a lot of them push close to level 20 (don't some break it? I don't have my critter book handy at the moment). I disagree here. Sorcerer is the best class level for dragons to take because they gain more power from it than from any other class. And with epic rules now core there is no penalty for breaking the 20th caster level.
SpellBinder 02-12-04, 04:27 AM	Unless there's info posted somewhere, don't you stop gaining spells once you hit 20th level? The last info I saw was that spell progression stopped at level 20, but your caster level would still continue to rise. Now I do know that for a dragon, getting a super high caster level would be a good idea, but when a great wyrm silver dragon has an effective sorcerer level of 19 (I believe), just one level of sorcerer as a class would cap off your spell power there and you'd have to go to wizard or bard (if you meet alignment requirements) to increase your list of arcane spells. And yes, I know bards don't exactly qualify as arcane casters in their selection of spells.
Derren S. 02-12-04, 04:34 AM	Yes, spells per day don't increase, but a high caster level can be deadly right by itself (Harder dispell, more damage on spells, Holy Word type spells,...) Also with the right feat you can gain 10th and greater spell level which you can use for metamagic. And do not forget, great wyrm isn't an age every dragon reaches and ssorcerer level are a big power boost at adult age.
SpellBinder 02-12-04, 04:40 AM	Just my opinion here, as a dragon PC I'd choose a different class than sorcerer. Warmage would be cruel for additional spontaneous arcane magic (unless it too stacks with sorcerer levels? :(), or fighter or barbarian if you wanna go crazy in melee combat. (got a DM who's thinking about a more epic scale campaign, planning a silver dragon paladin or fighter for a character) Sorcerer is just pretty poor choice to me for a dragon character (wizard is another story), sorry if anyone feels differently.
Derren S. 02-12-04, 04:46 AM	Well, I rather give a sorcerer level to a dragon and with it access to higher level spells than a wizard level with a couple of extra 1st level spells. And when hitting 20th caster level start taking improves spell capacity for 10th and 11 spells. And with the buffs the dragon can cast with the additional sorcerer level it is as strong as it has taken fighter or babarian level. But noting speaks against taking other classes flavorwise, I just argument what would be best minmax wise.
Kayli 02-16-04, 09:44 PM	Because of their Bonus to Abillities Dragons make pretty make good any class except rogue. But they make best sorcerers because they max out their Spell Selection with just a few levels of Sorcerer, and can gain Access to Epic Spells pretty Quickly. And when it comes to Magic, More Lvls makes stronger spells even if it doesn't mean more spells known or more spells per day. As For When they can gain access to Clerical spells it is purely DM's Call. I see no rules one way or the other. But do remember that Dragons are restricted to only a few Clerical Domains, and don't have access to the whole gamut of Clerical spells. Also they must use one of their Spells Known for each Clerical Spell they want to have access to. So Rule Away "Oh Mighty" DM and Be confident that what every Choice you make is the Right one. :angel: Oh and if it is helpfull, I would go the same way you are thinking. No Clrecial Spells until he gets Bonus Sorcerer Lvls from Dragon Age Cat.
Derren S. 02-17-04, 02:16 AM	False. Most dragons have acces to all clerical spels and some domainspells.
strenoth 02-17-04, 10:36 AM	true, you just have to remember that every cure spell the dragon selects for his spells known is one less sorc spell he can put on hsi known spell list. It's not THAT much more powerful.
Derren S. 02-17-04, 10:45 AM	Clerical spells are not only cures (but they are handy for sure) there are also many good buffspells which can make a dragon even stronger. A dragon simply doesn't need many offensive spells.
Maedhros Taredun 02-18-04, 11:26 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. False. Most dragons have acces to all clerical spels and some domainspells. 3.5E Monster Manual, Page 69: "A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated"... "Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists AS ARCANE SPELLS". As far as I was able to determine from the MM, only the Blue, Red and Metallic dragons can do this- and for certain domains only- from two (brass dragon) to the silver (only dragon type that has access to 4 domains worth of spells). They dont have access to cleric healing spells unless they appear in the domain.
Derren S. 02-18-04, 11:35 AM	Read the specific dragon entries. It says "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the ... domains." So dragons can choose all generic cleric spells as known spells and in addition spells from certain domains.
Maedhros Taredun 02-18-04, 12:16 PM	I stand corrected.
Kayli 02-18-04, 10:58 PM	Don't Feel Bad, I made this mistake too. Has Any one else noticed that Evil Dragons Get Totally Jacked! I Mean they live half as long, Have Access to Fewer Spells, With the Exception of Blue and Red they don't get Clerical Spells, I mean, what gives? They Should be a little more Balanced ! Was This Done for PC Benifit, So We Would't try and kill Matalics in Equal Numbers as Evil Ones? If any thing the Evil Dragons Should be Tougher. After all they Are Hunted More Frequently, and are more likely to kill each other off in battle then The Goods are, so it should be a survival of the fittest more so for evil Dragons then Good ones. At least make it a fair fight between one Good and one Evil Dragon!
CrimsonPhoenix 02-21-04, 06:36 PM	I noticed that too but I have no idea why. PCs probably don't need to be discouraged from killing metalics (why would you kill a possible ally). Evil dragons are the ones the PCs will fight against and a fight against a dragon (even if you are like our group and have 2 dragons on your side already) should be a hard fight. I do understand the better casting ability the metallics get, however, since they are more likely to share new discoveries with each other as far as spells go, while the chromatics stay to themselves.
RavinRay 02-22-04, 01:50 AM	Well, if it's any consolation, all the fiendish planar dragons have spell resistance at wyrmling or very young ages already; the two good planar dragons start out at young adult. OTOH, both have higher SR's at great wyrm age. Then, the Tarterian, howling, and pyroclastic dragons all reach Colossal size at great wyrm (wyrm for howling); only the Oceanus dragon does so among the good dragons. And the fiendish dragons all have two breath weapons. So, take your campaign to the planes. Hmmm... why not cross-breed one of these with a chromatic if you want a really nasty villain?
Deaths-Warden 03-05-04, 12:13 PM	Hi, I'm new. Actually, I think it has to do with the dragons breeding cycles and whatnot. Evil dragons are more numerous but die easier. So... If was full scale war metties wouldn't necessarily win. Thats my thought on it anyways.
Kayli 03-06-04, 01:54 AM	That's good and all, except that evil dragons don't necissarly breed any faster the the metties do. In fact, Good Dragons are more likely to mate for life and to look after their young and see to it that they survive to young adulthood then evil ones and so have a lower mortality rate as well as having equal # of young. and being stronger and have higher spell casting capabilities and almost all can polymorph into a huminoid at wyrmling stage. Where as no evil dragon can do so with out choosing the polymorph spell when it becomes available to him from his spell progression. As for spell Casting dragons don't learn spells like wizards do from research and scholasticism, but rather from spontanious insight, like eureaka! I know how to cast Lightning bolt! So sharing spell knowledge is not really an issue for spell progression, the way that it is for Wizards. I say that the Weaker Good Dragons should havea spell progression tha tmatches that of the weaker evil dragons. And there is no reason that no single evil dragon can't poly morph natively into a huminoid form. Also the Good Dragons live for upto 2000 yrs longer then the evil ones. There is no reason given for why Evil Dragons surrender to the siren call of death so early in their lives when the Good Dragons do not. And don't blame it on batteling with other Evil Dragons the Surrrender of Twilight is a natural death, not one do to combat or disease. A little leveling of the playing field is in order. After all, Balance in all things, this is the key to the continuation of the universe. Imbalance even towards the good causes bad things to happen.
Deaths-Warden 03-07-04, 05:21 PM	Heh... A little lesson from the Kingpriest? The words fiery mountain seem to ring a bell.