Dragon SR to Low? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon SR to Low? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
10-17-07, 06:55 AM A mature adult gold dragon, for instance, has an SR of only 25. The dragon has a CR of 19. A 19th-level spellcaster would overcome that SR on a roll of 6, or 75% of the time. If the caster had Spell Penetration the caster overcomes the SR 85% of the time, and with Greater Spell Penetration, 95% of the time. That seems too weak. It seems like a base spellcaster of the same level as the dragon's CR should have a 50-50 shot of getting through the dragon's SR. That would mean raising the CR to 30. Then a spellcaster with Spell Penetration would overcome the SR 60% of the time, and with Greater Spell Penetration 70% of the time. Even that sounds a little high to me.

What do others think? Thanks. :)
Radijs
10-17-07, 08:07 AM I think that dragons are dangerous enough already with their current SR. There's no need for modifications.
runestar
10-17-07, 09:12 AM I think it was intended that they only have a small chance of resisting magic. Look at the githyanki for example, they too get only sr = class lvs + 5.

I could raise a similar point about their dr/magic. As in - why bother?

There are a few feats they can take to boost their sr. Either that or slap on a template which grants sr (those granting sr = HD+10 can be very dangerous).
Cifer
10-17-07, 09:18 AM I concur with Radijs and Runestar - dragons are hard enough. A little SR is ok, but more robs them of one of their few weaknesses.
Thorsbjorn
10-17-07, 05:46 PM Thanks for the feedback guys. I nearly always agree with Rune, but in this case I went ahead and added +5 to the SR of all my dragons. I just think that a dragon's SR should have some serious relevance. Even with CR +11 the SR will work at best only 50% of the time, and against most wizards and sorcerers it will work more like 30% of the time (with Greater Spell Penetration).

I do agree, Rune, that a dragon's DR is hardly worth the cost of the ink required to print it. I've adjusted the DR too. For dragons that currently have DR/magic and DR/epic I've added back the 3.0 system of gradations by enhancement bonus. For dragons specifically I've converted DR 5/magic to 5/+2, DR 10/magic to 10/+3, and so forth.

I'm also upgrading the size progression of their natural weapons to match the 3.5 progression; currently the size progression matches the 3.0 progression. The bite of a dragon currently goes from 2d6 at large to 2d8 at huge, following the 3.0 size progression. The 3.5 size progression, however, goes from 2d6 to 3d6, so I'm adjusting dragon damage accordingly.
Slagger the Chuul
10-18-07, 01:55 AM Funnily enough, just the other day I was running an adult green dragon with nothing but Awaken Spell Resistance in its feat selection; since no-one in the party had Spell Penetration, it essentially had magic immunity.

It definitely seemed to give it more of an advantage than any of the other feat choices available.
Derren S.
10-18-07, 04:56 AM Yes, Awaken Spell Resistence is a very powerful feat, especially at older ages. A GW Red Dragon would have an SR of 40 with that feat. But considering that SR was weakened by the existence of Assay Resistence, Spell Vulnerability and the feat which lets you take 10 on caster level checks such a feat was necessary.
frankthedm
10-18-07, 02:49 PM The Low SR is more there to prevent a horde of low level casters throwing save or suck spells at it and hopping for natural 1's on saves. Also it means the rogue can't use weak wands to somehow make sneak attack based touch attacks with UMD.
Dead_Weasel
10-19-07, 10:10 PM The Low SR is more there to prevent a horde of low level casters throwing save or suck spells at it and hopping for natural 1's on saves. Also it means the rogue can't use weak wands to somehow make sneak attack based touch attacks with UMD.Bingo, that's why. A dragon's SR is there so that it can ignore weak magical effects, not to make a party's magic users feel like fifth wheels. DR/magic is utterly pointless, though.
runestar
10-19-07, 11:36 PM Bingo, that's why. A dragon's SR is there so that it can ignore weak magical effects, not to make a party's magic users feel like fifth wheels. DR/magic is utterly pointless, though.

Although the question then arises about how often this will come up in your games, if at all.

True, a dragon would, with dr/magic, be impervious to even the most dedicated assault from that low-level army without magical weapons. But you typically won't see an army of 1st lv fighters taking on a dragon in the first place. And if you are telling a backstory, you can easily gloss over the fact that the army couldn't scratch the dragon, and that it simply scattered them like chaff.

Same goes for sr. Going by the definition of cr, you should never be in a scenario where its sr will be significant against your magic anyways.

Though you could always tack on templates like half-fiend, pseudonatural or spellwarped. They grant sr = HD+10, which now truly amount to something.:)
Thorsbjorn
10-20-07, 01:20 AM Although the question then arises about how often this will come up in your games, if at all.

True, a dragon would, with dr/magic, be impervious to even the most dedicated assault from that low-level army without magical weapons. But you typically won't see an army of 1st lv fighters taking on a dragon in the first place. And if you are telling a backstory, you can easily gloss over the fact that the army couldn't scratch the dragon, and that it simply scattered them like chaff.

Same goes for sr. Going by the definition of cr, you should never be in a scenario where its sr will be significant against your magic anyways.

Though you could always tack on templates like half-fiend, pseudonatural or spellwarped. They grant sr = HD+10, which now truly amount to something.:)

Good points as usual, Rune. I'd also point out that a 50%-70% chance of success with each spell that actually allows SR hardly makes the wizard or sorcerer into a useless fifth wheel. It just gives the dragon a fighting chance to resist some of his or her magic. :)

Speaking of spells that don't allow SR, does anyone have any good suggestions right off the bat for use against dragons? The only one that comes to my mind is melf's acid arrow, and even maximized that does such little damage that it's not too useful against a powerful dragon.

Does anyone remember melf's minute meteors from previous versions of the game? I like having multiple spells from the same old original D&D Gygax campaign wizards. :)
Dead_Weasel
10-20-07, 01:32 AM The orb of (element) spells from... Spell Compendium, I think?... got a lot of complaints because they do not allow SR.
Thorsbjorn
10-20-07, 02:19 AM The orb of (element) spells from... Spell Compendium, I think?... got a lot of complaints because they do not allow SR.

Oh yes, as I recall people had a big flame war here over whether an antimagic field prevented an orb from working. Basically they work like polar ray: ranged touch attack to do energy damage to one target. The big difference is that polar ray does allow SR. Probably the orb spells should allow SR, or a save for half. The orb spells though haven't been an issue in my campaign. Only once in 5+ years has a character learned any orb spell, back under 3.0, and he quit after he had to miss a session and his character got knocked unconscious in a combat. The character didn't die or anything, but the player basically read about it in my weekly update email, had a temper tantrum and said nasty things to me in a reply, then before I had a chance to reply sent another email quitting. I'm not sure if he quit more because he was upset that his character got knocked unconscious or more because he was embarrassed to have said nasty thing. I actually invited him to reconsider as he seemed like a basically decent guy who perhaps was prone to an occasional overreaction, but he turned it down.

Anyway, my players traditionally haven't been power-gamers, and if anything, could benefit from a bit more effort at improving the effectiveness of their abilities, so orb just hasn't been an issue. :)
tridiak
10-20-07, 02:58 AM DR X/magic is crappy. I'd add DR Y/-- where Y is it's age level ą some size modifier (Size F -> C : -10, -6, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +2, +6)
Thorsbjorn
10-20-07, 03:19 AM DR X/magic is crappy. I'd add DR Y/-- where Y is it's age level ą some size modifier (Size F -> C : -10, -6, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +2, +6)

The X really isn't the problem, especially for dragons, who eventually get a fairly large X compared to all other creatures in 3.5. The problem is the /magic part, which becomes irrelevant quite quickly. There's no point in having DR 20/magic when every foe will have a magical weapon.
frankthedm
10-23-07, 10:46 AM DR/magic is utterly pointless, though.Dragons make great Trip / Disarm monkeys.
Tequila_Sunrise
10-23-07, 06:08 PM I wouldn't recommend raising dragon SR, unless dragons fill the 'random encounters' role in your campaigns. Dragon SR is so low because the designers assumed that most dragons that a party faces will fill the BBEG role and therefore be significantly higher in CR.

PS Agreed that DR/magic is a total bore unless a monster somehow deprives the PCs of the ability to use their magic weapons (grapple is a great way to make that +5 vorpal greatsword useless).
Dead_Weasel
10-23-07, 09:17 PM Antimagic field becomes available at very old for some dragon varieties, later for most. Dispel magic only lasts for 1d4 rounds against a magic item, so it is a poor tactic at best.

I suppose it would depend on your reading, but the Snatch feat might be usable after a sunder attempt.
AnonymousInternets
10-23-07, 09:51 PM The thing is, parties will usually fight a lone dragon, who's meant to be a boss. That means that a CR 19 dragon is probably fighting a party more in the CL 15 range, because there's only 1 dragon. They have so many hit points and abilities themselves; I don't think they need magic immunity on top of it.
Count Arioch the 28th
10-23-07, 10:05 PM The thing is, parties will usually fight a lone dragon, who's meant to be a boss. That means that a CR 19 dragon is probably fighting a party more in the CL 15 range, because there's only 1 dragon. They have so many hit points and abilities themselves; I don't think they need magic immunity on top of it.

Only if the DM wants the party to die.

Dragons are already 2-4 CR above the number they were given. a CR 19 dragon is closer to CR 23.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 10-17-07, 06:55 AM	A mature adult gold dragon, for instance, has an SR of only 25. The dragon has a CR of 19. A 19th-level spellcaster would overcome that SR on a roll of 6, or 75% of the time. If the caster had Spell Penetration the caster overcomes the SR 85% of the time, and with Greater Spell Penetration, 95% of the time. That seems too weak. It seems like a base spellcaster of the same level as the dragon's CR should have a 50-50 shot of getting through the dragon's SR. That would mean raising the CR to 30. Then a spellcaster with Spell Penetration would overcome the SR 60% of the time, and with Greater Spell Penetration 70% of the time. Even that sounds a little high to me. What do others think? Thanks. :)
Radijs 10-17-07, 08:07 AM	I think that dragons are dangerous enough already with their current SR. There's no need for modifications.
runestar 10-17-07, 09:12 AM	I think it was intended that they only have a small chance of resisting magic. Look at the githyanki for example, they too get only sr = class lvs + 5. I could raise a similar point about their dr/magic. As in - why bother? There are a few feats they can take to boost their sr. Either that or slap on a template which grants sr (those granting sr = HD+10 can be very dangerous).
Cifer 10-17-07, 09:18 AM	I concur with Radijs and Runestar - dragons are hard enough. A little SR is ok, but more robs them of one of their few weaknesses.
Thorsbjorn 10-17-07, 05:46 PM	Thanks for the feedback guys. I nearly always agree with Rune, but in this case I went ahead and added +5 to the SR of all my dragons. I just think that a dragon's SR should have some serious relevance. Even with CR +11 the SR will work at best only 50% of the time, and against most wizards and sorcerers it will work more like 30% of the time (with Greater Spell Penetration). I do agree, Rune, that a dragon's DR is hardly worth the cost of the ink required to print it. I've adjusted the DR too. For dragons that currently have DR/magic and DR/epic I've added back the 3.0 system of gradations by enhancement bonus. For dragons specifically I've converted DR 5/magic to 5/+2, DR 10/magic to 10/+3, and so forth. I'm also upgrading the size progression of their natural weapons to match the 3.5 progression; currently the size progression matches the 3.0 progression. The bite of a dragon currently goes from 2d6 at large to 2d8 at huge, following the 3.0 size progression. The 3.5 size progression, however, goes from 2d6 to 3d6, so I'm adjusting dragon damage accordingly.
Slagger the Chuul 10-18-07, 01:55 AM	Funnily enough, just the other day I was running an adult green dragon with nothing but Awaken Spell Resistance in its feat selection; since no-one in the party had Spell Penetration, it essentially had magic immunity. It definitely seemed to give it more of an advantage than any of the other feat choices available.
Derren S. 10-18-07, 04:56 AM	Yes, Awaken Spell Resistence is a very powerful feat, especially at older ages. A GW Red Dragon would have an SR of 40 with that feat. But considering that SR was weakened by the existence of Assay Resistence, Spell Vulnerability and the feat which lets you take 10 on caster level checks such a feat was necessary.
frankthedm 10-18-07, 02:49 PM	The Low SR is more there to prevent a horde of low level casters throwing save or suck spells at it and hopping for natural 1's on saves. Also it means the rogue can't use weak wands to somehow make sneak attack based touch attacks with UMD.
Dead_Weasel 10-19-07, 10:10 PM	The Low SR is more there to prevent a horde of low level casters throwing save or suck spells at it and hopping for natural 1's on saves. Also it means the rogue can't use weak wands to somehow make sneak attack based touch attacks with UMD.Bingo, that's why. A dragon's SR is there so that it can ignore weak magical effects, not to make a party's magic users feel like fifth wheels. DR/magic is utterly pointless, though.
runestar 10-19-07, 11:36 PM	Bingo, that's why. A dragon's SR is there so that it can ignore weak magical effects, not to make a party's magic users feel like fifth wheels. DR/magic is utterly pointless, though. Although the question then arises about how often this will come up in your games, if at all. True, a dragon would, with dr/magic, be impervious to even the most dedicated assault from that low-level army without magical weapons. But you typically won't see an army of 1st lv fighters taking on a dragon in the first place. And if you are telling a backstory, you can easily gloss over the fact that the army couldn't scratch the dragon, and that it simply scattered them like chaff. Same goes for sr. Going by the definition of cr, you should never be in a scenario where its sr will be significant against your magic anyways. Though you could always tack on templates like half-fiend, pseudonatural or spellwarped. They grant sr = HD+10, which now truly amount to something.:)
Thorsbjorn 10-20-07, 01:20 AM	Although the question then arises about how often this will come up in your games, if at all. True, a dragon would, with dr/magic, be impervious to even the most dedicated assault from that low-level army without magical weapons. But you typically won't see an army of 1st lv fighters taking on a dragon in the first place. And if you are telling a backstory, you can easily gloss over the fact that the army couldn't scratch the dragon, and that it simply scattered them like chaff. Same goes for sr. Going by the definition of cr, you should never be in a scenario where its sr will be significant against your magic anyways. Though you could always tack on templates like half-fiend, pseudonatural or spellwarped. They grant sr = HD+10, which now truly amount to something.:) Good points as usual, Rune. I'd also point out that a 50%-70% chance of success with each spell that actually allows SR hardly makes the wizard or sorcerer into a useless fifth wheel. It just gives the dragon a fighting chance to resist some of his or her magic. :) Speaking of spells that don't allow SR, does anyone have any good suggestions right off the bat for use against dragons? The only one that comes to my mind is melf's acid arrow, and even maximized that does such little damage that it's not too useful against a powerful dragon. Does anyone remember melf's minute meteors from previous versions of the game? I like having multiple spells from the same old original D&D Gygax campaign wizards. :)
Dead_Weasel 10-20-07, 01:32 AM	The orb of (element) spells from... Spell Compendium, I think?... got a lot of complaints because they do not allow SR.
Thorsbjorn 10-20-07, 02:19 AM	The orb of (element) spells from... Spell Compendium, I think?... got a lot of complaints because they do not allow SR. Oh yes, as I recall people had a big flame war here over whether an antimagic field prevented an orb from working. Basically they work like polar ray: ranged touch attack to do energy damage to one target. The big difference is that polar ray does allow SR. Probably the orb spells should allow SR, or a save for half. The orb spells though haven't been an issue in my campaign. Only once in 5+ years has a character learned any orb spell, back under 3.0, and he quit after he had to miss a session and his character got knocked unconscious in a combat. The character didn't die or anything, but the player basically read about it in my weekly update email, had a temper tantrum and said nasty things to me in a reply, then before I had a chance to reply sent another email quitting. I'm not sure if he quit more because he was upset that his character got knocked unconscious or more because he was embarrassed to have said nasty thing. I actually invited him to reconsider as he seemed like a basically decent guy who perhaps was prone to an occasional overreaction, but he turned it down. Anyway, my players traditionally haven't been power-gamers, and if anything, could benefit from a bit more effort at improving the effectiveness of their abilities, so orb just hasn't been an issue. :)
tridiak 10-20-07, 02:58 AM	DR X/magic is crappy. I'd add DR Y/-- where Y is it's age level ą some size modifier (Size F -> C : -10, -6, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +2, +6)
Thorsbjorn 10-20-07, 03:19 AM	DR X/magic is crappy. I'd add DR Y/-- where Y is it's age level ą some size modifier (Size F -> C : -10, -6, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +2, +6) The X really isn't the problem, especially for dragons, who eventually get a fairly large X compared to all other creatures in 3.5. The problem is the /magic part, which becomes irrelevant quite quickly. There's no point in having DR 20/magic when every foe will have a magical weapon.
frankthedm 10-23-07, 10:46 AM	DR/magic is utterly pointless, though.Dragons make great Trip / Disarm monkeys.
Tequila_Sunrise 10-23-07, 06:08 PM	I wouldn't recommend raising dragon SR, unless dragons fill the 'random encounters' role in your campaigns. Dragon SR is so low because the designers assumed that most dragons that a party faces will fill the BBEG role and therefore be significantly higher in CR. PS Agreed that DR/magic is a total bore unless a monster somehow deprives the PCs of the ability to use their magic weapons (grapple is a great way to make that +5 vorpal greatsword useless).
Dead_Weasel 10-23-07, 09:17 PM	Antimagic field becomes available at very old for some dragon varieties, later for most. Dispel magic only lasts for 1d4 rounds against a magic item, so it is a poor tactic at best. I suppose it would depend on your reading, but the Snatch feat might be usable after a sunder attempt.
AnonymousInternets 10-23-07, 09:51 PM	The thing is, parties will usually fight a lone dragon, who's meant to be a boss. That means that a CR 19 dragon is probably fighting a party more in the CL 15 range, because there's only 1 dragon. They have so many hit points and abilities themselves; I don't think they need magic immunity on top of it.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-23-07, 10:05 PM	The thing is, parties will usually fight a lone dragon, who's meant to be a boss. That means that a CR 19 dragon is probably fighting a party more in the CL 15 range, because there's only 1 dragon. They have so many hit points and abilities themselves; I don't think they need magic immunity on top of it. Only if the DM wants the party to die. Dragons are already 2-4 CR above the number they were given. a CR 19 dragon is closer to CR 23.