Dragon Stats in Humaniod Form... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Stats in Humaniod Form... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rogue1stclass
05-19-04, 08:08 AM When a dragon uses his Alternate Form ability to become a Humaniod, what would his physical stats be?

Under Polymorph, you take on the physical stats of the species you change into. This works fine for most critters, but Humaniods generally have stats determined by what class they belong to. Is the Dragon stuck with, for example, the stat block listed in the Monster Manual for a 1st level Halfling Warrior anytime he changes into a Halfling? What about Humans, who have no MM listing? Does he have to just take the "average" array of 10s and 11s?

Seems kinda silly that a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon masquarading as a Human Paladin would have an 11 Strength.
strenoth
05-19-04, 01:29 PM Default: yes, they are stuck with crappy stats.

In My campaign, they have the ability of "draconic Paloymorh" which lets them keep most of their abilities, as appropriate to the new form (ie, natural attacks are lost, but stats & natural armor are kept, as well as senses and spell like abilities)
Kaylar
05-19-04, 02:30 PM I also have a house rule that allows Dragons to keep all of their ability stats when transforming into other forms. It's great to have a Copper dragon change into a meek elderly man and bet people to move him, when he has a Str. of 27 vs. their 18. I would gather that almost every DM out there would hate to limit dragons if they are in an alternate form, unless it's for a story purpose.
Rogue1stclass
05-19-04, 09:49 PM Hmm...

How about using one of the other arrays of stats for humaniods? I'd think that Dragons would definately qualify for the Elite array, usually reserved for PC classes, or at least the Standard array, which even Warriors get.
Bones
05-20-04, 12:18 AM Personally, I rule that when anyone assumes a new form, they have the choice of creating a "default" form. For example an elf wizard becoming a human for the first time can spend some extra time and xp to create a better fit with their new form. I take their current stats, remove racial modifiers, and apply the modifiers of the new form. I will also allow Xp to be spent to improve the new form's abilities.

You could allow the dragon a similar option, maybe requiring it to consume a large amount of treasure to improve it's new form. however, a charecter can only use this option once per race changed into.
Rogue1stclass
05-20-04, 09:06 AM Originally posted by Bones
Personally, I rule that when anyone assumes a new form, they have the choice of creating a "default" form. For example an elf wizard becoming a human for the first time can spend some extra time and xp to create a better fit with their new form. I take their current stats, remove racial modifiers, and apply the modifiers of the new form. I will also allow Xp to be spent to improve the new form's abilities.

You could allow the dragon a similar option, maybe requiring it to consume a large amount of treasure to improve it's new form. however, a charecter can only use this option once per race changed into.

Well, an Elf turning into a Human can just cast Alter Self and keep his stats minus racial modifiers anyway. I think that's the problem here. The Polymorph spell wasn't meant to deal with transforming into Humaniods.

Actually, I just realized I was making this too hard. Nothing in the description of Polymorph or Alternate Form says "Average". It merely states that you take on the physical abilities of the form. Therefore, it seems to me that if he had a specific person in mind, he would take on the stats of that person when he Poly'ed.
Ovistavin
05-20-04, 06:42 PM I have a silver dragon NPC that spends a lot of time as an elf. Since the dragon uses the same elf for its alternate form I rolled another set of stats that is specific for that form.
Bergen
05-20-04, 07:53 PM In my campaigns the dragon keeps his stats. There for a young gold dragon that polymorphs into an ant still keeps all stats and special abilities, so you have an ant that weights a couple of tons and takes out many picnics instead of one. I know this is not how the official rules work with polymorph but I put dragons in a special category and inform my players to that effect. Other than a few mumbles most think it's pretty cool.
tridiak
05-24-04, 08:25 AM Suggestion : Their Str & Con is the average for the race plus their age level upto a maximum of their own Str & Con.
Dex is whatever the race's average is (they don't know what "high" dexterity is).
Deluxe 247 G
05-26-04, 01:09 PM Personally I like and use the technique of you roll such as if you were making a new character. But the thing is now that I think about it is that any munchkin can just keep on making different 'forms' until they roll an 18 in every stat...Hmm...okay so here's what I do now

If you want to polymorph then the DM determines if it is suitable to roll new stats or to keep the absolute average(such as polymorphing into a chimera as opposed to a drow). If you keep the stats then that's that. If you decide to re-roll the stats then you re-roll. If you choose to turn into a NEW form of person you can either keep your current physical stats and just change forms OR you can totally re-roll but take a -1 to all rolls. This modifier is cumulative and every time you make a new character of the same type it stacks.

On the other hand, this could be a nuisance. Hmm, I dunno how to solve this.

Maybe just you roll up every time and you can choose to turn into something you have been in the past or make a totally new one.

I guess I won't penalize munchkins here....oh well...

:D Hope you got at least a tiny bit of information from that...eh....good luck
Ovistavin
05-26-04, 05:42 PM For the specific case of the NPC I mentioned above I decided that since the silver dragon spent so much time as a specific elf (and we are talking Decades here) that the dragon could have a set of ability scores specific to that form. The dragon knows that body as will as its natural one. If the dragon changed into another form then the average for that creature would be used.
CrimsonPhoenix
05-26-04, 06:01 PM There are two ways in my opinion that this could be done. Either you could have it be as the spell Draconic Polymorph, which I believe lets the dragon keep his stats as they are. As I see that was already mentioned above...

Or you could have the dragon get average stats for the race + his stat modifiers (so basically they would go down to the exact stats for that dragon listed in the MM (if they weren't already, this idea is mainly for PC dragons or other above-average ones).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rogue1stclass 05-19-04, 08:08 AM	When a dragon uses his Alternate Form ability to become a Humaniod, what would his physical stats be? Under Polymorph, you take on the physical stats of the species you change into. This works fine for most critters, but Humaniods generally have stats determined by what class they belong to. Is the Dragon stuck with, for example, the stat block listed in the Monster Manual for a 1st level Halfling Warrior anytime he changes into a Halfling? What about Humans, who have no MM listing? Does he have to just take the "average" array of 10s and 11s? Seems kinda silly that a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon masquarading as a Human Paladin would have an 11 Strength.
strenoth 05-19-04, 01:29 PM	Default: yes, they are stuck with crappy stats. In My campaign, they have the ability of "draconic Paloymorh" which lets them keep most of their abilities, as appropriate to the new form (ie, natural attacks are lost, but stats & natural armor are kept, as well as senses and spell like abilities)
Kaylar 05-19-04, 02:30 PM	I also have a house rule that allows Dragons to keep all of their ability stats when transforming into other forms. It's great to have a Copper dragon change into a meek elderly man and bet people to move him, when he has a Str. of 27 vs. their 18. I would gather that almost every DM out there would hate to limit dragons if they are in an alternate form, unless it's for a story purpose.
Rogue1stclass 05-19-04, 09:49 PM	Hmm... How about using one of the other arrays of stats for humaniods? I'd think that Dragons would definately qualify for the Elite array, usually reserved for PC classes, or at least the Standard array, which even Warriors get.
Bones 05-20-04, 12:18 AM	Personally, I rule that when anyone assumes a new form, they have the choice of creating a "default" form. For example an elf wizard becoming a human for the first time can spend some extra time and xp to create a better fit with their new form. I take their current stats, remove racial modifiers, and apply the modifiers of the new form. I will also allow Xp to be spent to improve the new form's abilities. You could allow the dragon a similar option, maybe requiring it to consume a large amount of treasure to improve it's new form. however, a charecter can only use this option once per race changed into.
Rogue1stclass 05-20-04, 09:06 AM	Originally posted by Bones Personally, I rule that when anyone assumes a new form, they have the choice of creating a "default" form. For example an elf wizard becoming a human for the first time can spend some extra time and xp to create a better fit with their new form. I take their current stats, remove racial modifiers, and apply the modifiers of the new form. I will also allow Xp to be spent to improve the new form's abilities. You could allow the dragon a similar option, maybe requiring it to consume a large amount of treasure to improve it's new form. however, a charecter can only use this option once per race changed into. Well, an Elf turning into a Human can just cast Alter Self and keep his stats minus racial modifiers anyway. I think that's the problem here. The Polymorph spell wasn't meant to deal with transforming into Humaniods. Actually, I just realized I was making this too hard. Nothing in the description of Polymorph or Alternate Form says "Average". It merely states that you take on the physical abilities of the form. Therefore, it seems to me that if he had a specific person in mind, he would take on the stats of that person when he Poly'ed.
Ovistavin 05-20-04, 06:42 PM	I have a silver dragon NPC that spends a lot of time as an elf. Since the dragon uses the same elf for its alternate form I rolled another set of stats that is specific for that form.
Bergen 05-20-04, 07:53 PM	In my campaigns the dragon keeps his stats. There for a young gold dragon that polymorphs into an ant still keeps all stats and special abilities, so you have an ant that weights a couple of tons and takes out many picnics instead of one. I know this is not how the official rules work with polymorph but I put dragons in a special category and inform my players to that effect. Other than a few mumbles most think it's pretty cool.
tridiak 05-24-04, 08:25 AM	Suggestion : Their Str & Con is the average for the race plus their age level upto a maximum of their own Str & Con. Dex is whatever the race's average is (they don't know what "high" dexterity is).
Deluxe 247 G 05-26-04, 01:09 PM	Personally I like and use the technique of you roll such as if you were making a new character. But the thing is now that I think about it is that any munchkin can just keep on making different 'forms' until they roll an 18 in every stat...Hmm...okay so here's what I do now If you want to polymorph then the DM determines if it is suitable to roll new stats or to keep the absolute average(such as polymorphing into a chimera as opposed to a drow). If you keep the stats then that's that. If you decide to re-roll the stats then you re-roll. If you choose to turn into a NEW form of person you can either keep your current physical stats and just change forms OR you can totally re-roll but take a -1 to all rolls. This modifier is cumulative and every time you make a new character of the same type it stacks. On the other hand, this could be a nuisance. Hmm, I dunno how to solve this. Maybe just you roll up every time and you can choose to turn into something you have been in the past or make a totally new one. I guess I won't penalize munchkins here....oh well... :D Hope you got at least a tiny bit of information from that...eh....good luck
Ovistavin 05-26-04, 05:42 PM	For the specific case of the NPC I mentioned above I decided that since the silver dragon spent so much time as a specific elf (and we are talking Decades here) that the dragon could have a set of ability scores specific to that form. The dragon knows that body as will as its natural one. If the dragon changed into another form then the average for that creature would be used.
CrimsonPhoenix 05-26-04, 06:01 PM	There are two ways in my opinion that this could be done. Either you could have it be as the spell Draconic Polymorph, which I believe lets the dragon keep his stats as they are. As I see that was already mentioned above... Or you could have the dragon get average stats for the race + his stat modifiers (so basically they would go down to the exact stats for that dragon listed in the MM (if they weren't already, this idea is mainly for PC dragons or other above-average ones).