Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SpyGuy 01-03-04, 12:06 AM	I could use some killer tactics for an adult blue dragon. Complete tactics, like what spells a dragon would choose to learn, and how best to use its abilities at that age to offer an incredible challenge to a party. I just can't run dragon encounters without feeling like I'm doing it wrong. The party seems to be able to do just fine without even preparing special tactics. Any help would, er... help.
was_fired 01-03-04, 01:28 AM	Improved Trip + Improved Disarm on the fighter. If it can cast spells grab cats grace or a dex boosting item along with combat reflexs to maximize the effect of its reach. If you can get 2 AoOs a round don't bother with any form of fly but hover and use that right over the parties wizard or cleric, 10ft away outside their reach. Then full attack and rip em to shreds. Fighters and clerics can't take a good blast of minty fresh breath and so long as you are airborn they can't flank you without flight so the rogue is no problem. Use the breath weapon if you can hit any 2 or more party members except the rogue. Yes a dragon would know since a rogue would be the guy without much armor which looks rather nimble. Anyone in fullplate or with carrying a staff is a target for breath. Dragons buff before battles and should not fight inside their lairs. Doing so is stupid since it removes the dragons mobility and blocks potential escape routes. Always bring the battle to the PCs.
Boondoggle 01-03-04, 07:06 AM	2nd level spells: Mirror Image, See Invisibility 1st level spells: Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement Feats: Hover, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Blind-fight, Escew Materials, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip. Try to catch the prey-- er, party unaware. If any character is small, snatch them & fly or burrow away. Be sure to breathe at someone once you have them snatched. Try to engage the party in an area with loose debris for the benefit of your hover feat. Only engage in full attacks while hovering out of reach of most (if not all) of the party. Kill the cleric first & foremost. The mage second. Trip the rogue and power attack. Trip & power attack lighty armored meleers, grapple tanks.
was_fired 01-03-04, 03:34 PM	You might want to switch blind-fight or eschew materials for improved disarm. Since the dragon is huge they have a nice bonus for disarm. Dragon: +21 BaB + 8 str + 8 size +4 improved disarm - 4 light weapon = +37 Fighter 14: +14 BaB + 3 ench + 6 str + 4 THW = +27 Also since the dragon would be disarming while unarmed the weapon is in its hand. He can then for kicks drop it as a free action on his other side so the fighter will be forced to move to get it provoking an AoO which can be used to trip him.
Willie the Duck 01-03-04, 04:26 PM	dragons don't have hands.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 01-03-04, 07:03 PM	Originally posted by Willie the Duck dragons don't have hands. Lockwood dragons don't, but some, IIRC, have prehenstile tails and/or tongues. Still, that doesn't help holding a weapon.. Elmore Dragons have opposable thumbs. It's all in the setting.
was_fired 01-03-04, 08:37 PM	Even without hands they can simply close their claw around it, grab it in their teeth, wrap their tail around it, or use any of the other forms of unarmed attack which the game has to offer. Besides can you think of anything funnier than a dragon tripping a charging paladin and yoinking his lance?
Boondoggle 01-04-04, 03:30 AM	If any feat should be dropped for imp. disarm, I think it should be snatch. It's a great feat, but less than useful to a huge dragon. For a gargantuan dragon, however, snatch is an easy way to pick of the party one at a time :devil:
SpyGuy 01-04-04, 06:20 AM	Agreed, however in my campaign world dragons get eschew materials for free because they were once patrons of magic. So Improved Sunder, and Improved Disarm if I lose Snatch. Which I likely will considering that 2 different characters have chosen Close Quarter's Fighting and get AoO whenever a grapple starts regardless of the other creature's feats. Not to mention the Huge limitations on grabbing people.
Kkat 01-04-04, 06:56 AM	I can work up some tactis ideas for you, but I need to know two things first: 3E or 3.5 Dragons? (3.5 Dragons got nerfed a bit, so tactics would change.) Where is the battle happening? (If in the Dragon's Lair, for instance, tactics change dramatically.) --Kkat
SpyGuy 01-04-04, 02:49 PM	You have the Draconomicon? I have a list of the dragon's feats, but some of them are new. Adult Blue Dragon 3.5 Feats: Combat Reflexes, Hover, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Multiattack, Snatch, Improved Snatch, Snatch and Swallow, and free Eschew Materials Improved Snatch allows a dragon to use the Snatch feat on creatures two sizes smaller, instead of three Snatch and Swallow is whenever a creature has been Snatched in the dragon's mouth a second grapple check swallows the creature, and then standard cut your way out rules apply as the creature takes physical and energy damage. I expect the dragon to attack at least once on the open sand, and if the PCs survive an encounter they will track it back to its lair.
Wilds 01-04-04, 03:11 PM	feeblemind, ray of idiocy, paleful polymorph just try to think of the tactics a creatures that has lived for 600 years could think of:drool:
Executor_5 01-04-04, 04:27 PM	The dragon should definitely have the Spellcasting Harrier feat. As long as the dragon stays close to the party mages and clerics, it won't have to worry about them casting any spells.
Kkat 01-04-04, 04:55 PM	First, in preparation, you should do a few things: Roll the Dragon's stats. This is the same 4d6 (drop the lowest) as everyone else gets. The Dragon's stat modifiers are: Str +16. Dex +0, Con +10, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +6. (Remember, the stats in the MM are average stats, thus the equivelent of a human with straight 10's and 11's.) Choose whether the Dragon has a class. Dragons can take class levels. Even Prestige Class levels. (In fact, they have their own unique ones.) And Dragons can qualify for Prestige Classes fairly easily with Their innate abilities. The obvious suggestion here is a level in Sorcerer. This will bring the Dragon's spellcasting high enough to cast third level spells. Plus, the Dragon will get a familiar. The familiar of a Dragon is a scary creature. Even scarier if the Dragon takes Improved Familiar to gain a humanoid as a familir. Since the Dragon is huge, any PC race or basic humanoid in the books would be able to ride Her. This would give the Dragon a serious advantage, and Dragon's are all about getting advantages. Choose the Dragon's horde. Don't wait till afterwords to roll this up. Know what the Dragon has. And, if there are such things as magic shops in your world or other ways to obtain the items you want, you can guarentee that the Dragon has a horde tailored to Her. This means no weapons or armor sized to PCs, or trinkets that do Her no good. This means, as well, that She will have all Her magic items with Her in combat, and will use them. Two must-haves for a Dragon: Ring of Sustinance (you know how much someone as big as a Dragon would have to eat?) and Ring of Evasion (to help against those pesky spellcasters)! If the Dragon has access to someone with Craft Wonderous Item, either through normal means or purrhaps even a cohort gained through Leadership, the Dragon will likely have a unique item designed in the same way as teh Broach of Shielding but desigend to counter Harm. (Even if the PCs don't have this spell, it is one that is frightening enough for Dragons that She would expect some opponent at some point to have it.) She will also something with Heal. I have some concerns about the choice of feats for the Dragon. I wouldn't have made the same ones. Frankly, despite everything, Dragons are not great in melee. You will usually find your PCs are capable of dealing far greater melee damage than the Dragon, unless the Dragon focuses all attacks on one character. Notibly, the Dragon will do this. Grappling is not a great idea simply because that ties up some of the Dragon's natural attacks. Some suggestions instead: Maximize Breath Weapon Shape Breath Flyby Attack Power Lunge Combat Expertise Dragon Early Warning System Blue Dragons are lawful, as well as evil. So the Blue Dragon can have allies. I talk about cohorts or familiars at other times. But here there is also the potential for allies within the nearby towns. People being paid off by the Dragon, or people whom the Dragon has intimidated. These people will, in the least, give the Dragon forwarning of the PCs. At worst, they will give the PCs erronious information about the Dragon, setting them up for a fall. The Dragon may even be able to send out a small group of kobolds to take on the PCs, with one watchign at a far distance and then reporting party composition and tactics back to the Dragon. The First Battle... When attacking in the sands, the Dragon should get the drop on the PCs. The Dragon can burrow, meaning that She will move into position (within breath range but outside their melee range) The first round, the Dragon will burst from the ground ant hit the party with a shaped, maximized blast. (Shape Breath allows the Dragon to breath in a cone rather than a line.) This will be done as flyby attack, allowing the Dragon to hit them and continue to fly, keeping well out of range of their melee weapons, limiting them to spells and ranged attacks. The Maximized Breath will deal 96 points of damage (save for half). At this point, assuming the party is still fairly functional, the Dragon may toss off a few spells and "flee" to Her lair. After all, it will take 1d4+4 rounds before She can breathe again. If the party looks pretty damaged from that, She will take out the magic user in the second round. She will know who it is because she has Detect Magic (to tell who is buffed), a Spot of 21 (great for noticing holy symbols and spellbooks) and a Spellcraft of 21 (great for recognizing spellcasters the moment they cast a spell). A great way to start this slaughter is charging the spellcaster with a Power Lunge. This gives the Dragon's attack double Her strength damage. She would do so using Her crush attack, which normally does Str x1.5, for 2d8 + Str x3. She will attack the cleric first and foremost in order to take out the party's ability to heal. If She has a level of Sorcerer and a humanoid familiar, or has a cohort through Leadership, then that figure will be riding on Her back using some magic item (Wand of X, probably) to fire off shots at the party while She takes out the spellcaster. Either way, once the spellcaster is dead, the Dragon will flee. She has probably taken some damage at this point. Plus, She wants to lure the PCs back to Her lair. Her lair, of course, is a deathtrap. Back in the Lair... The Blue Dragon will have used a magic item to heal, and will be waiting for the PCs. Her lair will dive deep under the sands, and will be fashioned to Her liking. She has burrow and a breath weapon that can easily turn sand to glass where She desires it. Getting in will require hazardous climbing checks for non-flying PCs. And expect scything traps that are designed to slice climbing ropes. Expect the passage to the Dragon's room to be very narrow, forcing the PCs to travel in a line. (Line breath weapons are fun.) The Dragon will have an alternate route to the same room, but that will be concealed or caved in. The Blue Dragon has a few distinct advantages that She will use as best She can. First, She is huge. And thus the lair willb e designed in a way to hamper smaller people but not Herself. The most obvious way, and a Blue Dragon favorite, is to have the entire lower Lair filled with water. The water will be about five feet deep -- deep enough to drown Dwarves and small characters unless they figure out a way around it, and enough to seriously slow and hamper the fighting of medium-sized ones (reducing their speed and probably giving attack penalties). As a huge creature, the Dragon is no more hampered by this, however, than we are by a mud puddle. The water has two more benefits: first, it conceals tripwires and other trap activators. The Dragon will have alarm traps set that the PCs cannot avoid and will be unable to see, so She will know when they are coming. Plus, the lair itself will have trap defenses, both mundane and magical. Second, the water creates a wonderful conduit for the Dragon's breath weapon. And, by now, She can breathe that Maximized Breath again. Of course, one of the biggest downsides to the Dragon's breath is that everyone knows a Blue Dragon breathes Electricity, and will be prepared for electricity up the purrverbial wazoo. So... change that. Give Her either Alter Breath Weapon (Monster's Handbook by Legends and Lairs) which allows Her to choose a different energy type and breathe that three times a day... or, if you don't like TPS's, and you consider Her a really evil Dragon, use a feat to give Her a corrupted breath weapon (BoVD) that does half it's damage as unholy damage up to three times a day. Finally, you can achieve the same effect through a Drought of Breath Weapon Substitution. Or, if you are an Evil DM, Drought of Breath Weapon Admixture! After breathing, the Dragon will fight focusing on a single member of the party, taking them down one at a time. Furthermore, by seriously hurting a single individual, the Dragon can force the cleric to move next to him to heal him. This puts the cleric and wounded PC in the same small space, wonderful for spell targeting. The Dragon will have some offensive spells with an area of effect. They will not be electricity spells, because She knows that is what the PCs will have buffed for. And remember, the Dragon will not fight to the death. When all else fails, She will use Her escape route, burrowing through a wall She designed to be unstable, so that the wall comes down behind Her. This keeps the PCs from being able to pursue. Plus, it has the chance to bury them in the avalanche of sand. Treasure Under Glass... Even if the PCs drive Her off, it will be a hallow victory. The collapse of a wall will have buried whatever treasure She did not carry. And even when the PC's dig away the sand, they should find the non-magical treasure fused with in a sheet of glass. The Dragon will have gathered the treasure She does not spend on magic items to increase Her power, put it inoto sand, and turned the sand to thick glass. This will make retrieval of the treasure painstaking and difficult. And give the Dragon time to recover, heal (using the previously mentioned magic item) and return for yet another round. And remember, the treasure will include no humanoid weapons, armor or magical items that fit slots that Dragons do not have. However, magical items that fit slots Dragons can use (amulets, gloves, belts, robes) are likely. As well as ones that fit slots only the Dragon has: tail and wings. (And, if you are using the craptacular Lockwood artwork for Dragons: horn.) The Dragon, remember, knows what items are in Her horde. Including which ones not to use. Expect some retributive items such as a Necklace of Strangulation. --Kkat
Insanity 01-04-04, 05:51 PM	From the Draconomicon, dragons cast spells w/o material components, but still require focus components. If you go by this, there is no need for Eschew Materials. There is also a feat, Embed Spell Focus, that allows dragons to embed focus components in their bodies so they are always at hand. If Disarming is an objective, I suggest learning true strike and get the +20 to the dragon's already decent attack bonus. This is great against fighters in which 3/4 of their feats revolve around their weapom. The dragon grabs it from him and throws it as far as it can. True Strike is also nice as it counters chance to miss from Concealment, and if the dragon knows spells like obscuring mist, he can pinpoint the locations of the opponents using Blindsense and not suffer a miss chance. With spells, try to focus on those that boosts the dragon rather then trying to hurt the PCs, dragons of matching CRs tend to be lower spellcaster level then the group and may have a difficult time in bypassing SRs. Area spells that alter the conditions of the battle area can be useful, but try to avoid those that directly target PCs.
SpyGuy 01-04-04, 06:15 PM	Good god you are evil Kkat. Well scrap my idea, your crazy death with blue scales approach seems much more appropriate for the campaign finale I expect. Thanks for the great advice.
Boondoggle 01-04-04, 06:16 PM	Frankly, kkat, I think some of your advice is good, some is very bad. First, a dragon's strongest form of attack is melee. The idea that a dragon would split up its attacks amongst the party is foolish. Any good tactician will tell you that focusing your attacks will give you the best results. One full attack by a dragon has a good chance of taking half a character's HP, or even killing a rogue or mage, depending upon how much the dragon can power attack. It's attacks will be (with multiattack): bite +27, 2d8+8; 2 claws +25, 2d6+4; 2 wings +25, 1d8+4; tail slap +25, 2d8+12. His crush attack only works on small sized creatures. A tank with an AC of 30 (generally high, even for 14th level) will still, most likely be hit by 5 out of the 6 attacks. If the creature's AC is lower, the dragon power attacks. The dragon's AC of 28 isn't terribly high, but since he'll most likely catch the party unaware, mage armor & shield bring that AC to 36. I don't think that a dragon's hoard should be the least bit exclusive. Dragon's don't collect, they hoard, everything. Sure, some of the dragon's possesions will be useful to it, but not all of them. The idea that the hoard won't have anything useable for the PCs seems more of DM spite than anything. I'm sure this dragon has killed other adventuring bands before, and it wouldn't dispose of their possesions. Leadership for a dragon is silly for two reasons. First, dragons are paranoid loners, usually vein & selfish. That, however, is a discussion for another thread. Secondly, a cohort means the party isn't fighting a dragon anymore, it's fighting a dragon & a spellcaster (most likely). This will raise the EL & easily end up in a TPK, which I do not believe is the intent. Fighting the dragon in a heavily trapped lair will also significantly raise the EL of the encounter and make it even more deadly. Hopefully the PCs will recognize that. Another poor suggestion is for the dragon to flee. Blue dragons view retreat as cowardly and they will only flee is nearly crippled. Power lunge really is a waste of a feat for a dragon, IMO. First, a crush attack won't affect the party (most likely). Secondly, it doesn't double your current bonus to damage from strength, it just gives the attack 2x str mod instead of whatever eles it normally gives. Flyby attack is another less than optimal choice for this dragon. As I mentioned, a dragons strongest method for eliminating the party quickly a full attack (while hovering with sand flying around, nonetheless). Flyby attack is more adapted to hit & run tactics which generally works better for older dragons, and strongly clashes with a blue's personality. That said, you are right on about using elite stats for dragons. I would allocate them in this order: Str, int, con, dex, cha, wis. Strength should always be the highest stat due to the dragons melee capabilities, but the rest are a suggestions more than anything. Maximize breath weapon & shape breath are a very powerful combo (well, moreso because of maximize). Remember that a 40' cone shaped breath weapon delivered from above turns into a 30' radius circle on the ground. SpyGuy, those feat choices seem quite solid, although the dragon needs a descent dex or dex boosting items to make use of combat reflexes. If the feat isn't a prerequisite, I would suggest power attack instead. Unless your party has very high ACs, power attack will be of more use than combat reflexes. I would also suggest considering improved trip instead of improved disarm. A tripped character standing up will provoke the same number of AoOs & have the same number of attacks as a disarmed character retrieving his weapon. Improved trip, however, lets you power attack for 4 more, which is 4 more damage on each of your 6 attacks. Oh, and for the opposed roll to trip the character, you will have a modifier of at least +20 (+8, huge, +4 imp. trip, +8 str). That will put just about anyone on their :censored:.
Kkat 01-04-04, 09:15 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle First, a dragon's strongest form of attack is melee. Dragons have great melee attack bonuses. But their damage is weak compared to what your party fighter will do. Furthermore, the Dragon would have to be stupid to put Herself in melee combat for any amount of time. She is huge, meaning the entire party could encircle Her. Everyone would get the advantage of flanking, and She would be taking all the the entire party's strength in hits compared to what She dishes out against one person. Dragons fly. And they are smart enough to stay out of the way of the melee monsters in your group by keeping a good distance. His crush attack only works on small sized creatures. This is a huge Dragon. Her crush attacks work on any member of the party. Unless 3.5 nerfed Crush. Which wouldn't surprise me. It would be one more argument for using 3E. (Did they actually nerf this? Did they actuallly say that a Dragon the size of a freakin' house cannot crush somebody five feet tall?) In which case the Dragon would use Power Lunge and Her bite attack. I don't think that a dragon's hoard should be the least bit exclusive. Dragon's don't collect, they hoard, everything. Dragons are intelligent. In fact, they are more intelligent than party members. If the party members are smart enough to acquire things that they can use and that will make them stronger, then the Dragon figured this out while still in the egg. The idea that the hoard won't have anything useable for the PCs seems more of DM spite than anything. Did I say that? No. However, I did say everything in the horde would be useable by the Dragon! And there is a good chance some things won't be usable by the PCs. A magical ring is as beneficial to a Dragon as to an elf, as it resizes, and so a magical ring is likely to be found in the Dragon's horde. A magical sword is not, however, and will not be found in the Dragon's horde. I'm sure this dragon has killed other adventuring bands before, and it wouldn't dispose of their possesions. If there is any means of buying, selling or trading items in the campaign world, the Dragon will have sold off items from previous adventuring bands to gain items more to Her liking and use. Just as your PC would. Dragons aren't stupid. They are, however, the biggest munchkins in the realm. Leadership for a dragon is silly for two reasons. Neither of your reasons have anything to do with reality. First, dragons are paranoid loners, usually vein & selfish. So are evil overlords. That doesn't mean they don't have Leadership. In fact, the Dragon's vanity is one of the reasons She would take Leadership. Having minions. Secondly, a cohort means the party isn't fighting a dragon anymore, it's fighting a dragon & a spellcaster (most likely). This will raise the EL & easily end up in a TPK, which I do not believe is the intent. This shouldn't change the EL at all. Leadership, and any benefits gained through it, is part of the Dragon. This is like saying that wizards have a higher EL if they have familiars, or Druids if they have animal companions. That's just not the case. At the very most, the DM might assign a separate CR for the cohort. But this is the DM being generous. Notibly, your argument amounts to "The Dragon shouldn't do that because it could kill the party." Guess what. That is the Dragon's intention. (If the Dragon was trying to have tea with the party, it would put that feat into Skill Focus: Tea Ceremony.) Fighting the dragon in a heavily trapped lair will also significantly raise the EL of the encounter and make it even more deadly. Hopefully the PCs will recognize that. Are you seriously suggesting the Dragon would not trap Her lair just because that would make it too hard for people to kill Her? Another poor suggestion is for the dragon to flee. Blue dragons view retreat as cowardly and they will only flee is nearly crippled. Blue Dragons are lawful, intelligent, and don't ahve a death wish. She will hold a grudge. But She isn't going to fight stupidly, and She will flee when She is hurt. Or to lure the PCs into a position even more advantageous for Her. Why do you keep suggesting that Dragons should be played like dumb animals? --Kkat PS: Put the stats where you want. My suggestion, though, is: Dex, Cha, Str, Con, Int, Wis. The weakest stat for a Dragon is Dex, so it need the boost the most, and benefits from it the best. Charisma is great for getting every additional spell per day possible, and increasing spell DCs. Strength is nice to enhance Her melee ability in those few times She does get that close.
Kkat 01-04-04, 09:25 PM	Remember: The PCs are fighting a Dragon. The PCs will do everything they can, pull every trick in the book, to maximize how much hurt they inflict on the Dragon and minimize the Dragon's ability to hurt them. The Dragon is going to do the exact same thing. And the Dragon is older, smarter and more experience than they are. The Dragon should do the same thing better if possible. If there is anything, anything the Dragon can do to stack the odds in Her favor, She will. She will engaging the PCs in a fashion that denies them their best attacks. --Kkat
Boondoggle 01-05-04, 04:21 AM	Why do you keep suggesting that Dragons should be played like dumb animals? I don't. I suggest the dragon should be played like an intelligent creature with a personality & mind of its own. You seem to keep suggesting that the dragon should be a homocidal killing machine that cares about nothing else besides defeating this party of adventurers. Blue dragons view retreat as cowardly. They, in turn, won't use hit & run tactics. She is huge, meaning the entire party could encircle Her. Hence the hover feat. When the dragon is 10 feet above the party, flanking is less of a concern. Dragons have great melee attack bonuses. But their damage is weak compared to what your party fighter will do. An individual attack by a dragon does mediocre damage. 6 attacks will probably outdamage the fighters 3. A very high attack bonus combined with power attack will make each of those 6 attacks even more deadly. This is a huge Dragon. Her crush attacks work on any member of the party. In 3.5, crush attacks only work on creatures 3 sizes smaller than you. Please make suggestions that are compatable with the rules set the thread's author requests. I did say everything in the horde would be useable by the Dragon! By definition, that is not a hoard. Hoarding is not trading, selling, bartering, ect. Hoarding is keeping everything you can get your hands (or claws) on. It is not in a dragon's nature to go to the magic mart & pawn things from its hoard. It would also be foolish for a dragon to get rid of things adventurers find valueable. Rewards from a dragon hoard can be a very strong motivation to do its bidding. Neither of your reasons have anything to do with reality. Needless flames have no place on these boards, nor does reality in a discussion of dragon behavior. Leadership is a PC feat and is generally not nessessary for an NPC. NPCs exsist, co-exsist, cooperate, fight, etc. at the whim of the DM. If a DM want's a dragon to have a cohort, she's free to give him one reguardless of the leadership feat. A dragon with a cohort would raise the EL and the cohort would have a CR. A second creature working with the dragon would make the encounter harder, and the PCs would get more experience for defeating both creatures vs just the dragon. These are the mechanics of the system. Notibly, your argument amounts to "The Dragon shouldn't do that because it could kill the party." My argument is that dragons have personalities. However, I don't think the dragon should kill the party. The advice we are giving is for the use of a DM, not the dragon. The DM doesn't want a TPK, that's no fun, and far too easy. For that same reason, the DM needs to be careful constructing the dragon's lair. Sure, the lair should be trapped, and the dragon should be ready for them, but if orchestrated poorly, the party dies. Dragons should be very formidable opponents that make the PCs anxious. They shouldn't be uberbeasts of unstoppable power. Dragons are the oldest and smartest and most powerful creatures in the game, but what fun is it if they are infallable?
Derren S. 01-05-04, 04:48 AM	Originally posted by Boondoggle Blue dragons view retreat as cowardly. They, in turn, won't use hit & run tactics. Maybe you should also quote the sentence before that: Blue Dragons run from a fight only when severly damaged. Also do you realize how fast dragons can fly? The dragon can breath, fly away to turn and fly back which can easily take 3 rounds, enough to recharge the breath weapon. That would qualify as hit & run tactic and why wouldn't the dragon use that? And Flyby attack is the perfect feat for that. In melee dragons normally go down as fast as other monsters to. b] Hence the hover feat. When the dragon is 10 feet above the party, flanking is less of a concern.[/b] Against a well equiped party it still is. An individual attack by a dragon does mediocre damage. 6 attacks will probably outdamage the fighters 3. A very high attack bonus combined with power attack will make each of those 6 attacks even more deadly. Who makes a a mindless killing machine here? Going melee and let them hit you or fly above them and kill them with your breath weapon while they can't do something against it? By definition, that is not a hoard. Hoarding is not trading, selling, bartering, ect. Hoarding is keeping everything you can get your hands (or claws) on. It is not in a dragon's nature to go to the magic mart & pawn things from its hoard. The Draconomicon adresses this posibility as legal. It would also be foolish for a dragon to get rid of things adventurers find valueable. Rewards from a dragon hoard can be a very strong motivation to do its bidding. Gold coins are mostly enough for that. Also many items adventurer can use are also usefull for dragons Leadership is a PC feat and is generally not nessessary for an NPC. NPCs exsist, co-exsist, cooperate, fight, etc. at the whim of the DM. If a DM want's a dragon to have a cohort, she's free to give him one reguardless of the leadership feat. Why is it a PC feat? because it is in the PHB? Than can the dragon also don't take power attack because it is also a PC feat? Also when it is PC only, why is the table in the DMG? My argument is that dragons have personalities. However, I don't think the dragon should kill the party. The advice we are giving is for the use of a DM, not the dragon. The DM doesn't want a TPK, that's no fun, and far too easy. So the DM should build all encounters so that PCs win? If the players see that the dragon is to strong they should flee. Also they don't prepare special tactics so its their fault if they loose. For that same reason, the DM needs to be careful constructing the dragon's lair. Sure, the lair should be trapped, and the dragon should be ready for them, but if orchestrated poorly, the party dies. The the party is dumb, especially when they are attacking the dragon.
was_fired 01-05-04, 06:58 AM	I never thought of the water idea nice very nice kkat. Hover does as pointed out before allow a dragon to safly enter melee combat against a party. For 2 reasons: 1. Most people don't use reach weapons and if it sees them it just goes 5ft higher. 2. It gives mages a nasty chance of spell failure due to casting of the defensive. 3. Even if they their fighter has fly cast on them the dragons trip caused by the fighters aproach (assuming they have combat reflexs + enough dex to use it) would knock that fighter back to earth.
Boondoggle 01-05-04, 04:00 PM	fly above them and kill them with your breath weapon while they can't do something against it Strafing with a breath weapon won't kill the party. They can easily spread out, & heal between attacks. All that down time does is provide the PCs with a chance to buff the hell out of themselves and pelt the dragon with spells. A dragons most effective weapon is its melee attacks. Its prefered tactic is ambush. Flying around waiting for your breath weapon to 'recharge' wastes the ambush and won't kill anything quickly.
Derren S. 01-05-04, 04:18 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle Strafing with a breath weapon won't kill the party. They can easily spread out, & heal between attacks. All that down time does is provide the PCs with a chance to buff the hell out of themselves and pelt the dragon with spells. A dragons most effective weapon is its melee attacks. Its prefered tactic is ambush. Flying around waiting for your breath weapon to 'recharge' wastes the ambush and won't kill anything quickly. Or it would let them waste their heals, buffs and spells because unless teleporting they can never outrun the dragon who has plenty of time to weaken and then kill the PCs.
Kkat 01-05-04, 10:17 PM	Well spoken, DarrenS. Strafing attacks, as well as hitting the party then luring them back to even more adventageous ground, are not cowardly and do not constitute "fleeing". They constitute superior tactics. Attacking in melee, which allows the greatest number of PCs their greatest attacks, is stupid. If you have the ability to do damage and avoid being hurt yourself, that's the best tactic to go with. No matter how damaging the attacks that leave you terribly vulnerable are. was fired: Thanks! With Their ability to Create/Destroy Water, and Their electrical breath, water traps and water use is pretty standard for a Blue Dragon's lair. Other Dragons also use it, particularly Whites and Bronze. (A White Dragon will use it then breath on the water to freeze it, trapping the party where they stand. Plus, the White's ability to swim makes water passageways a key defensive element of Her lair.) Hover is not sufficient against anything but a low level party. Even putting Her highest stat into Dexterity and wasting the feats necessary to get Combat Reflexes, the Dragon will still not be able to attack each person who gets to Her each round. And PCs with enough levels to have a chance against an Adult Blue are going to have the ability to cover the distance of Her reach without blinking... even if that distance is straight up. There are a number of first or second level spells, cheap magic items, or skills which would allow PCs to close the distance if the Dragon was dumb enough to hover so close. --Kkat
Boondoggle 01-06-04, 06:44 AM	As I've said before, a dragon who uses strafing tactics not only allows the party to buff themselves, but allows them to attack the dragon while it's incapable of retaliation. The dragon's biggest threat are the cleric and mage casting 6th or 7th level spells. Flying around waiting for a breath weapon to recharge is giving the opponent free rounds to act against it. By ambushing the party and killing the cleric as fast as possible, it removes the largest aid to the party. The mage is still a bigger threat, but killing the cleric will weaken the party as a whole the most. Besides, the mage comes next. I am well aware that hover won't completely protect a dragon from melee attacks. What it does, however, is make the party use valuable time & resources to reach the dragon. In an ambush situation, that means the dragon will likely have at least one full round of attacks without any attacks on it after the surprise round. If the party wants to continue buffing itself, they give up more rounds. Hover also has the added benefits of forcing a concentration check (only DC 20 in this case, however) and obscuring vision, making ranged attacks significantly less useful. They key to the ambush strategy is to kill the party as quickly as possible. Flying around & waiting is a good way for the dragon to get itself killed. Round by round tactics (if I were running the dragon): Prior to combat: Once the dragon has spotted the party, it will burrow and cast its buff spells (mage armor, shield, mirror image & see invisibility) hidden from the party. Then it will fly to about 60 ft behind the party & switch to hover (invisibility, ring or wand, would be useful to avoid detection here). First round (Surprise round): Use breath weapon against as much of the party as possible, but be sure to hit the cleric & mage (use best guess as to who they are). Fly (hovering) over the party & keep both main casters within melee reach. Second round: Full attack cleric using improved trip & power attack (8 or so to start, 4 due to prone). If the cleric tries to move, trip him with your AoO. Keep him within reach of a full attack. At this point, a lot depends on the PCs. Focus on killing the cleric & mage first. Be aware of the rogue attempting to flank. Use improved trip to severly hamper the party's mobility. Hopefully, with the breath weapon & full attack, you will be able to kill the cleric outright before he has a chance to heal.
Kkat 01-06-04, 10:42 AM	Not too different from the first two rounds I suggested. But since this is a campaign finale, lets up the ante. Before battle: The Dragon has the people She's paying off in the local town give the PCs bad information about her. Claim she is a rogue Brass. (Always good to get a slam in at the Metallics while at this.) Dragon has kobolds attack the party with someone in the idstance watching and reporting back tot he Dragon about PC composition and tactics. Dragon prepares. Round zero: Dragon casts Change Self to make Herself look like a Brass, and uses a Draught of Fire Breath to change Her breath weapon to fire. Round one: Dragon ambushes the party, bursting up from underground, using flyby attack to hose the party with a Shaped, Maximized breath blast for 96 points of fire damage (save for half). If the Dragon has a level in Sorcerer, the Dragon's humanoid Improved Familiar will be riding Her back and using a Wand to smite the PCs. (Even if the Dragon doesn't have a Familiar, the Dragon can use a summoned monster with a Necklace of Fireballs to do the same.) Round two: Dragon Power Lunges the party cleric and turns him into a puddle. Round three +: If the cleric is still alive, the Dragon finishes him off. But the first round after the cleric is dead, the Dragon takes off, luring the party (who now cannot buff or heal) back to Her lair (as described before). The Dragon can take Her time to buff and heal Herslef (and will have a magic item with Heal to facilitate this) while She waits for the party to blunder through Her lair's traps. Round X: The Dragon uses a Draught of Acid Admixture to hit the party in one of those narrow hallways with a Maximized Breath that does 96 electricity and 96 acid damage. If Her ploy worked, the party will have spent what bluffs they had on protection from fire. Battle continues from there. If the Dragon becomes significantly wounded, She burrows through Her escape passage, collapsing the lair on top of the PCs to smother them. --Kkat