Dragon Tricks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Tricks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Black_Dragon
08-09-06, 11:37 AM Okay, here's the scenario:

Huge Red Dragon: "So, you puny humans think you can defeat me and steal all of my treasure?"
Dwarf PC: "I'm a dwarf!"
Huge Red Dragon: "I don't care. No matter what you are, you can't beat me."
Human PC: "How can you be so sure?"

*PAUSE*

At this point, the dragon would logically, considering its intelligence, roll its tail over the PCs, flattening them like flies. No initiative, no saving throw. The PCs would simply be killed. However, if this logic were employed, most PCs would shout curses at the DM and tell him that he's being unreasonable.

*REWIND*

Human PC: "How can you be so sure?"

*PAUSE*

As you can see, the human clearly asks the dragon a question. The dragon's answer is physical and results in the PCs' deaths. The dragon is only answering the (rude) human's question by demonstrating his might compared to their's.

*REWIND*

Huge Red Dragon: "So, you puny humans think you can defeat me and steal all of my treasure?"

*PAUSE*

The PCs, from the dragon's point of view, are theives. No more, no less. The dragon may be evil, but from its perspective, the PCs are the wrongdoers. They are stealing his treasure that he has worked hard to get.

In conclusion, I ask you: Shouldn't the dragon be allowed to do this without the PCs objecting?
Thiez
08-09-06, 12:02 PM Just give him a suprise round to use his beath weapon. After that, use more breath weapons and maybe a full round attack. Or, if your dragon is bored, fling a few spells at the party.

I hate 'you die'-DMs. Just play out the battle, I don't care how short it is. The party (or at least some of your players) could suprise you and escape (Yikes! That dragon is pwning us! Quick, throw the portable hole in this bag of holding).
mvincent
08-09-06, 01:07 PM Shouldn't the dragon be allowed to do this without the PCs objecting?I believe both the PC's and the Dragon are expecting trouble here. The correct answer should instead be "Roll initiative", then play out the battle normally.

If the dragon is drastically more powerful, so be it (it will be a tense, if short, battle), but there is no reason to summarily rule without rolling.

Also, it's often nice to also allow the players to roll diplomacy for this (it's possible that the PC's knew how to phrase the question much more nicely than the players could).
Thiez
08-09-06, 01:16 PM That makes no sense. I don't think the players would have attacked the dragon (that would be maaaaad!). If one of the players rolled higher than the dragon on initiative (and they will, due to its low dex) they would respond to the dragon's attack before he made it. He'll, the dragon could even be dead (if he was unlucky with a save or die) so he could never make the attack that provoked the save or die. That's why the dragon should get a surpise round, because if it does not get it, the universe breaks. [The results of your action preventing you from taking that action]
cwslyclgh
08-09-06, 01:22 PM I probably would have had the group roll initaitive as soon as they say the dragon... any Q&A session would have taken place during the normal round structure...
The_Black_Dragon
08-09-06, 01:30 PM The reason that I don't think that combat is worth anybody's time is that the PCs are too weak to face this dragon whatsoever. I gave them plenty of warnings and dropped clues, but I couldn't get them to stop on their idiotic dragon-slaying quest.

It also seems much cooler (to me, at least) for the dragon to be powerful enough that he carelessly rolls his tail over these minor nuisances.
Psydrith
08-09-06, 01:42 PM It's all a matter of opinion.
Some people are insistent upon carrying out pointless actions because it makes them feel that they have a choice.
Andorxor
08-09-06, 01:42 PM Every same CR is a easy encounter for the party.Should the fall dead to ground as soon as they see the party?
mvincent
08-09-06, 02:40 PM That makes no sense. I don't think the players would have attacked the dragon (that would be maaaaad!). If one of the players rolled higher than the dragon on initiative (and they will, due to its low dex) they would respond to the dragon's attack before he made it. I know it might sound strange, this is kinda how D&D works. Besides, you could do this exact same interuption with a readied action (assuming readying an action was allowed outside of combat, which it isn't).

Think of it this way: if readying an action before combat were allowed, both sides would've done so (creating an odd circumstance as everyone interupts each other with readied actions, and it would probably have to be resolved in initiative order anyway). It's easiest to view anyone that could've readied an action (were it allowed before combat) as instead getting an action on the surprise round.

You could view the dragon attack as completely unexpected, but that means that you are assuming that the party is very foolish (or optimistic) indeed... which seems an unfair assumption.

Also, the D&D rules imply that if everyone get's an action on the surprise round, then there is no surprise round (i.e. in D&D, if both sides are aware of each other then initiative is rolled normally... I personally still use the surprise round, but that is a preference).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Black_Dragon 08-09-06, 11:37 AM	Okay, here's the scenario: Huge Red Dragon: "So, you puny humans think you can defeat me and steal all of my treasure?" Dwarf PC: "I'm a dwarf!" Huge Red Dragon: "I don't care. No matter what you are, you can't beat me." Human PC: "How can you be so sure?" PAUSE At this point, the dragon would logically, considering its intelligence, roll its tail over the PCs, flattening them like flies. No initiative, no saving throw. The PCs would simply be killed. However, if this logic were employed, most PCs would shout curses at the DM and tell him that he's being unreasonable. REWIND Human PC: "How can you be so sure?" PAUSE As you can see, the human clearly asks the dragon a question. The dragon's answer is physical and results in the PCs' deaths. The dragon is only answering the (rude) human's question by demonstrating his might compared to their's. REWIND Huge Red Dragon: "So, you puny humans think you can defeat me and steal all of my treasure?" PAUSE The PCs, from the dragon's point of view, are theives. No more, no less. The dragon may be evil, but from its perspective, the PCs are the wrongdoers. They are stealing his treasure that he has worked hard to get. In conclusion, I ask you: Shouldn't the dragon be allowed to do this without the PCs objecting?
Thiez 08-09-06, 12:02 PM	Just give him a suprise round to use his beath weapon. After that, use more breath weapons and maybe a full round attack. Or, if your dragon is bored, fling a few spells at the party. I hate 'you die'-DMs. Just play out the battle, I don't care how short it is. The party (or at least some of your players) could suprise you and escape (Yikes! That dragon is pwning us! Quick, throw the portable hole in this bag of holding).
mvincent 08-09-06, 01:07 PM	Shouldn't the dragon be allowed to do this without the PCs objecting?I believe both the PC's and the Dragon are expecting trouble here. The correct answer should instead be "Roll initiative", then play out the battle normally. If the dragon is drastically more powerful, so be it (it will be a tense, if short, battle), but there is no reason to summarily rule without rolling. Also, it's often nice to also allow the players to roll diplomacy for this (it's possible that the PC's knew how to phrase the question much more nicely than the players could).
Thiez 08-09-06, 01:16 PM	That makes no sense. I don't think the players would have attacked the dragon (that would be maaaaad!). If one of the players rolled higher than the dragon on initiative (and they will, due to its low dex) they would respond to the dragon's attack before he made it. He'll, the dragon could even be dead (if he was unlucky with a save or die) so he could never make the attack that provoked the save or die. That's why the dragon should get a surpise round, because if it does not get it, the universe breaks. [The results of your action preventing you from taking that action]
cwslyclgh 08-09-06, 01:22 PM	I probably would have had the group roll initaitive as soon as they say the dragon... any Q&A session would have taken place during the normal round structure...
The_Black_Dragon 08-09-06, 01:30 PM	The reason that I don't think that combat is worth anybody's time is that the PCs are too weak to face this dragon whatsoever. I gave them plenty of warnings and dropped clues, but I couldn't get them to stop on their idiotic dragon-slaying quest. It also seems much cooler (to me, at least) for the dragon to be powerful enough that he carelessly rolls his tail over these minor nuisances.
Psydrith 08-09-06, 01:42 PM	It's all a matter of opinion. Some people are insistent upon carrying out pointless actions because it makes them feel that they have a choice.
Andorxor 08-09-06, 01:42 PM	Every same CR is a easy encounter for the party.Should the fall dead to ground as soon as they see the party?
mvincent 08-09-06, 02:40 PM	That makes no sense. I don't think the players would have attacked the dragon (that would be maaaaad!). If one of the players rolled higher than the dragon on initiative (and they will, due to its low dex) they would respond to the dragon's attack before he made it. I know it might sound strange, this is kinda how D&D works. Besides, you could do this exact same interuption with a readied action (assuming readying an action was allowed outside of combat, which it isn't). Think of it this way: if readying an action before combat were allowed, both sides would've done so (creating an odd circumstance as everyone interupts each other with readied actions, and it would probably have to be resolved in initiative order anyway). It's easiest to view anyone that could've readied an action (were it allowed before combat) as instead getting an action on the surprise round. You could view the dragon attack as completely unexpected, but that means that you are assuming that the party is very foolish (or optimistic) indeed... which seems an unfair assumption. Also, the D&D rules imply that if everyone get's an action on the surprise round, then there is no surprise round (i.e. in D&D, if both sides are aware of each other then initiative is rolled normally... I personally still use the surprise round, but that is a preference).