Dragon Wild Shape [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Wild Shape [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nephelim
11-26-03, 11:01 AM I seem to remember a Dragon Wildshape ability in the Epic Level handbook.... with insanely high requirements, now there is one that has fairly low level requirements, but a size limit of small or Medium... dosen't that size limit get trumped by further development in Wild Shape, and dosen't this utterly destroy the Epic feat of the SAME NAME?

Forgive my lack of specificity, but I don't have my books with me.
AV 3e DM
11-27-03, 01:16 AM remember ELH=3.0, draconomicon=3.5 the designers obviously felt that druids should be able to wildshape into dragons particularly with the new restrictions on wildshaping
d_nychus
11-27-03, 02:22 AM Regular Whirlwind now includes Improved Whirlwind, too. This is not an uncommon thing. A good many of the Epic feats are frankly pretty weak compared to other Epic level feats.

I honestly wish they had made Spellcasting Harrier a normal feat, too, because that feat just does not even remotely cut Epic level utility.
d_nychus
11-27-03, 02:25 AM Oh, and considering the feat in question is a 12th level feat minimum, I hardly feel this feat is broken by any means. The ability to wildshape into a Medium dragon at 12th level is pretty decent, but honestly there are better routes for a druid to take.
Nephelim
11-27-03, 10:57 AM Originally posted by d_nychus
The ability to wildshape into a Medium dragon at 12th level is pretty decent, but honestly there are better routes for a druid to take.

Except that at 8th level a Druid can wildshape into a Large creature, which effects all wildshape forms they can take, right? So at 12th level, a Druid can wildshape into an adult or young adult dragon... but then again, there is a HD cap on the form you can take, so I suppose that mitigates the potential here... but then again again, there is no HD limiter on a 3.0 Druid... or a familiarty clause like the 3.0 Shifter.

So I guess the conclusion here is that this is a feat which, while balanced for a 3.5 game, could be exceptionally unballancing in a 3.0 game?
Battousai
11-28-03, 05:46 AM I don't think so:the feat actually states which forms can be taken. The same thing appeared when the ELH came out: by taking the Improved elemental wild shape, you gained all the (su) abilities yet you couldn't use the (su) abilities when using greater wild shape as a shifter , even with the feat.

Iwould rule that taking the epic version of dragon wild shape overides any size limit , even if you don't have grgantual wild shape...
the_heart
11-28-03, 07:37 AM Originally posted by Nephelim
Except that at 8th level a Druid can wildshape into a Large creature, which effects all wildshape forms they can take, right? So at 12th level, a Druid can wildshape into an adult or young adult dragon... but then again, there is a HD cap on the form you can take, so I suppose that mitigates the potential here... but then again again, there is no HD limiter on a 3.0 Druid... or a familiarty clause like the 3.0 Shifter.

So I guess the conclusion here is that this is a feat which, while balanced for a 3.5 game, could be exceptionally unballancing in a 3.0 game?

sounds like the feat supecedes the druid ability, it specifies the ability to adopt sm/med dragons, no exceptions. at least thats my take.
badger3k
11-28-03, 11:58 AM Originally posted by Nephelim
Except that at 8th level a Druid can wildshape into a Large creature, which effects all wildshape forms they can take, right? So at 12th level, a Druid can wildshape into an adult or young adult dragon... but then again, there is a HD cap on the form you can take, so I suppose that mitigates the potential here... but then again again, there is no HD limiter on a 3.0 Druid... or a familiarty clause like the 3.0 Shifter.

So I guess the conclusion here is that this is a feat which, while balanced for a 3.5 game, could be exceptionally unballancing in a 3.0 game?

Not sure of the 3.0 balance, but the way I see it for 3.5:

Looking at the 15th level druid description (PHB p 37), he can become a "Tiny animal" to a "Huge animal". At 16th level he can become a "Small, Medium, or Large elemental" so the Huge size change does not apply to the elemental (only animals), otherwise they could simply be huge elementals (now gained at 20th). The limits on the dragons size are the same - all three forms (well, four, since the druid could wildshape to plant creatures the same size as the animals) have different limitations on them. This works for the times/day too - a 20th level druid without the dragon shape feat can wildshape into an animal or plant 6 times per day, and an elemental form 3 times per day - they can't use all 9 to become animals.

In 3.5 you also have a HD can't exceed characters Druid level as a limitation.

Like I said, can't tell what the 3.0 limits were (since I don't have the books), so while it may be balanced for 3.5, it might not work for 3.0.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nephelim 11-26-03, 11:01 AM	I seem to remember a Dragon Wildshape ability in the Epic Level handbook.... with insanely high requirements, now there is one that has fairly low level requirements, but a size limit of small or Medium... dosen't that size limit get trumped by further development in Wild Shape, and dosen't this utterly destroy the Epic feat of the SAME NAME? Forgive my lack of specificity, but I don't have my books with me.
AV 3e DM 11-27-03, 01:16 AM	remember ELH=3.0, draconomicon=3.5 the designers obviously felt that druids should be able to wildshape into dragons particularly with the new restrictions on wildshaping
d_nychus 11-27-03, 02:22 AM	Regular Whirlwind now includes Improved Whirlwind, too. This is not an uncommon thing. A good many of the Epic feats are frankly pretty weak compared to other Epic level feats. I honestly wish they had made Spellcasting Harrier a normal feat, too, because that feat just does not even remotely cut Epic level utility.
d_nychus 11-27-03, 02:25 AM	Oh, and considering the feat in question is a 12th level feat minimum, I hardly feel this feat is broken by any means. The ability to wildshape into a Medium dragon at 12th level is pretty decent, but honestly there are better routes for a druid to take.
Nephelim 11-27-03, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by d_nychus The ability to wildshape into a Medium dragon at 12th level is pretty decent, but honestly there are better routes for a druid to take. Except that at 8th level a Druid can wildshape into a Large creature, which effects all wildshape forms they can take, right? So at 12th level, a Druid can wildshape into an adult or young adult dragon... but then again, there is a HD cap on the form you can take, so I suppose that mitigates the potential here... but then again again, there is no HD limiter on a 3.0 Druid... or a familiarty clause like the 3.0 Shifter. So I guess the conclusion here is that this is a feat which, while balanced for a 3.5 game, could be exceptionally unballancing in a 3.0 game?
Battousai 11-28-03, 05:46 AM	I don't think so:the feat actually states which forms can be taken. The same thing appeared when the ELH came out: by taking the Improved elemental wild shape, you gained all the (su) abilities yet you couldn't use the (su) abilities when using greater wild shape as a shifter , even with the feat. Iwould rule that taking the epic version of dragon wild shape overides any size limit , even if you don't have grgantual wild shape...
the_heart 11-28-03, 07:37 AM	Originally posted by Nephelim Except that at 8th level a Druid can wildshape into a Large creature, which effects all wildshape forms they can take, right? So at 12th level, a Druid can wildshape into an adult or young adult dragon... but then again, there is a HD cap on the form you can take, so I suppose that mitigates the potential here... but then again again, there is no HD limiter on a 3.0 Druid... or a familiarty clause like the 3.0 Shifter. So I guess the conclusion here is that this is a feat which, while balanced for a 3.5 game, could be exceptionally unballancing in a 3.0 game? sounds like the feat supecedes the druid ability, it specifies the ability to adopt sm/med dragons, no exceptions. at least thats my take.
badger3k 11-28-03, 11:58 AM	Originally posted by Nephelim Except that at 8th level a Druid can wildshape into a Large creature, which effects all wildshape forms they can take, right? So at 12th level, a Druid can wildshape into an adult or young adult dragon... but then again, there is a HD cap on the form you can take, so I suppose that mitigates the potential here... but then again again, there is no HD limiter on a 3.0 Druid... or a familiarty clause like the 3.0 Shifter. So I guess the conclusion here is that this is a feat which, while balanced for a 3.5 game, could be exceptionally unballancing in a 3.0 game? Not sure of the 3.0 balance, but the way I see it for 3.5: Looking at the 15th level druid description (PHB p 37), he can become a "Tiny animal" to a "Huge animal". At 16th level he can become a "Small, Medium, or Large elemental" so the Huge size change does not apply to the elemental (only animals), otherwise they could simply be huge elementals (now gained at 20th). The limits on the dragons size are the same - all three forms (well, four, since the druid could wildshape to plant creatures the same size as the animals) have different limitations on them. This works for the times/day too - a 20th level druid without the dragon shape feat can wildshape into an animal or plant 6 times per day, and an elemental form 3 times per day - they can't use all 9 to become animals. In 3.5 you also have a HD can't exceed characters Druid level as a limitation. Like I said, can't tell what the 3.0 limits were (since I don't have the books), so while it may be balanced for 3.5, it might not work for 3.0.