Dragon with sorcerer levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon with sorcerer levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Conflagration
07-07-06, 11:38 AM I have a young adult green dragon (base CR 11 i think) and i am planning on adding levels of sorcerer. I am wondering, when adding levels of sorcerer to a dragon, does the CR goes up one for every level or is it "unassociated" and therefore CR increases by 2 for every level. My instinct says it should be one CR for every level since dragons cast as sorcerers anyway and it directly increases that capability, but I'm wondering if that's the general opinion. I want it to be challenging, but I don't want to destroy my group's party with an over powered dragon. Thanks in advance.
Sarlax
07-07-06, 02:11 PM Sorcerer is unassociated for CR purposes. Dragons are primarily combat machines. Take a look at, for instance, a young bronze. Caster level 1, 12 HD, +15 attack, AC 21, etc. There's no way that dragons are primarily casters.
crumpton23
07-07-06, 02:29 PM According to the RAW:

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Sorcerer levels stack directly with a dragon's spellcasting ability, so it is associated.

Take a YA Red Dragon for example if it is considered non-associated. He could gain 19 levels of sorcerer (for a total of 24), and his CR becomes either 22 or 23 depending on how you round. The epic casting plus his considerable melee skill makes for a very powerful creature.
Morphius
07-07-06, 06:07 PM I'd suggest making them unassociated until the dragon's caster level equals its challenge rating, and then making them associated.
runestar
07-07-06, 10:53 PM The problem about making sorc lvs associated is that it sucks compared to just adding additional dragon HD instead. On average, each age category increases its cr by 1 or 2(depending on the dragon), and adds +2 effective sorc casting lv, in addition to the massive bonuses granted by those additional, far superior dragon HD.

Compare 2 sorc lvs to 3 dragon HD and tell me that the former is comparable to the second? :rolleyes:

In fact, compared with additional dragon HD, just about every other class sucks in comparison, unless it has some attractive feature worthy of 1-dipping. All class lvs should be treated as non-associated. ;) If you consider that class lvs incur epic bab progression past 21HD, while dragon HD continue granting full bab progression all the way, its not really as outrageous as it sounds. :P
Millennium
07-08-06, 09:34 AM By RAW, a dragon's innate casting ability acts as "virtual levels" of sorcerer. Therefore, it would stack with actual sorcerer levels. You could think of it as though the dragon had taken levels in a PrC which had the class feature "Spellcasting: +1 level of sorcerer" for as many levels as the dragon had virtual sorcerer levels.

These virtual sorcerer levels would not, however, stack with wizard levels or cleric levels, because those are different classes.
runestar
07-08-06, 10:01 AM By RAW, a dragon's innate casting ability acts as "virtual levels" of sorcerer. Therefore, it would stack with actual sorcerer levels. You could think of it as though the dragon had taken levels in a PrC which had the class feature "Spellcasting: +1 level of sorcerer" for as many levels as the dragon had virtual sorcerer levels.
Was there anything in the previous posters' posts which suggested otherwise? :confused:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Conflagration 07-07-06, 11:38 AM	I have a young adult green dragon (base CR 11 i think) and i am planning on adding levels of sorcerer. I am wondering, when adding levels of sorcerer to a dragon, does the CR goes up one for every level or is it "unassociated" and therefore CR increases by 2 for every level. My instinct says it should be one CR for every level since dragons cast as sorcerers anyway and it directly increases that capability, but I'm wondering if that's the general opinion. I want it to be challenging, but I don't want to destroy my group's party with an over powered dragon. Thanks in advance.
Sarlax 07-07-06, 02:11 PM	Sorcerer is unassociated for CR purposes. Dragons are primarily combat machines. Take a look at, for instance, a young bronze. Caster level 1, 12 HD, +15 attack, AC 21, etc. There's no way that dragons are primarily casters.
crumpton23 07-07-06, 02:29 PM	According to the RAW: A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. Sorcerer levels stack directly with a dragon's spellcasting ability, so it is associated. Take a YA Red Dragon for example if it is considered non-associated. He could gain 19 levels of sorcerer (for a total of 24), and his CR becomes either 22 or 23 depending on how you round. The epic casting plus his considerable melee skill makes for a very powerful creature.
Morphius 07-07-06, 06:07 PM	I'd suggest making them unassociated until the dragon's caster level equals its challenge rating, and then making them associated.
runestar 07-07-06, 10:53 PM	The problem about making sorc lvs associated is that it sucks compared to just adding additional dragon HD instead. On average, each age category increases its cr by 1 or 2(depending on the dragon), and adds +2 effective sorc casting lv, in addition to the massive bonuses granted by those additional, far superior dragon HD. Compare 2 sorc lvs to 3 dragon HD and tell me that the former is comparable to the second? :rolleyes: In fact, compared with additional dragon HD, just about every other class sucks in comparison, unless it has some attractive feature worthy of 1-dipping. All class lvs should be treated as non-associated. ;) If you consider that class lvs incur epic bab progression past 21HD, while dragon HD continue granting full bab progression all the way, its not really as outrageous as it sounds. :P
Millennium 07-08-06, 09:34 AM	By RAW, a dragon's innate casting ability acts as "virtual levels" of sorcerer. Therefore, it would stack with actual sorcerer levels. You could think of it as though the dragon had taken levels in a PrC which had the class feature "Spellcasting: +1 level of sorcerer" for as many levels as the dragon had virtual sorcerer levels. These virtual sorcerer levels would not, however, stack with wizard levels or cleric levels, because those are different classes.
runestar 07-08-06, 10:01 AM	By RAW, a dragon's innate casting ability acts as "virtual levels" of sorcerer. Therefore, it would stack with actual sorcerer levels. You could think of it as though the dragon had taken levels in a PrC which had the class feature "Spellcasting: +1 level of sorcerer" for as many levels as the dragon had virtual sorcerer levels. Was there anything in the previous posters' posts which suggested otherwise? :confused: