Dragons & cleric spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons & cleric spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tridiak
06-21-04, 02:55 AM The 3.5 srd quotes "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the X, Y & Z Domains".
Does this mean they can cast all Cleric spells or is it phrased wrongly?
Seems overly powerful to me.
Kastas
06-21-04, 04:07 AM It means that they can choose spells off of the cleric list and their domain lists as spells known. If spells are learned in this manner, they are considered arcane. This ability is more powerful than only being able to cast sorcerer spells, to be sure, but it's balanced by various factors:
-Dragons can learn only a limited number of spells
-Divine spells tend to be weaker than arcane spells
-By the time dragons gain access to a new level of spells, they are often not very powerful compared to the dragon's other abilities
Pasquirlio
06-22-04, 10:13 AM Musn't forget though that dragons are capable of free true resurrections. No spell components for them. Ofcourse no dragon around would give it for free. Fun quests not focusing on paying tribute(doesn't mean they don't have to be this is a dragon we're talking about after all) to get those true resurrections.
Zif
06-28-04, 09:23 AM Um, who says divine spells cast as sorcerer spells no longer have material components?
Pasquirlio
06-28-04, 12:48 PM No that's not what i meant.

Dragons don't need material components for spells they cast.
Derren S.
06-28-04, 01:13 PM Where does it say this?

Edit: Found it, Draconomicon page 24.

Makes me wonder what dragons can do with Fabricate.
Pasquirlio
06-28-04, 01:23 PM First off, I used this as a general rule before i saw it printed.

Personally i don't see dragons reaching for the bat dung to fireball someone. A trick best used by white's or silver's as their enemies usually prepare for ice.

But pg 24 of the draconomicon discusses dragons and magic.
Pasquirlio
06-28-04, 01:27 PM Beat me to it, you did.
Zif
06-28-04, 02:00 PM I stand corrected.

As for Fabricate, any sane DM would make the "component" into the "target" for purposes like this. It is only logical.
Derren S.
06-28-04, 02:04 PM At least dragons can cast forbiddance on their whole lair without ruleslawyer arguing that dragons would never spend so much money...
Pasquirlio
06-28-04, 02:10 PM Yeah it's along the lines of(well in my opinion don't know if there is an official rule for this) Causing power words(or stuff like that) to fail if cast with silent spell. Just a personal opinion of mine.
Mirtek
06-29-04, 07:03 AM IMO this is either phrased wrongly or other articles talking about dragons are wrong.

E.G. an old dragon articel talked about the one thing their abilities can not give them: healing

But being phrased as it is: What'S going to stop a dragon from taking cure/heal as his spells?

Also the mention of the domains makes no sense. Either a domain spell is a spell a cleric can cast anyway, or it's an arcane spell a cleric couldn't cast without this domain.

But since dragons can cast arcane spells anyway, there's no need for them to mention the access to the domains. Because a dragon can already cast any given domain spell either as a cleric or an arcane spell without needing access to that domain.

I believe they wanted to say that "Can also cast cleric spells from the X, Y & Z Domains" instead of "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the X, Y & Z Domains", but the way it's currently written a dragon can indeed cast all cleric spells and all sorcerer spells.
Derren S.
06-29-04, 07:51 AM There are some divine spells which can only be accessed by domains like Orders Wrath. Also some domainspells are lower level than the normal cleric spell.

And was this old dragon article before 3Ed? If yes then all information in there is outdated.
Zif
06-29-04, 10:59 AM Also the mention of the domains makes no sense. Either a domain spell is a spell a cleric can cast anyway, or it's an arcane spell a cleric couldn't cast without this domain.A cleric's bonus domain spell MUST be taken from the domain list. If it's also on the main list, so what? And AFAIK, they can't cast domain spells not in the main list with slots other than domain slots.

Makes perfect sense to me.
Mirtek
07-01-04, 04:41 AM Originally posted by Zif
A cleric's bonus domain spell MUST be taken from the domain list. But dragons do not receive bonus spellsOriginally posted by Zif
If it's also on the main list, so what? And AFAIK, they can't cast domain spells not in the main list with slots other than domain slots.Makes perfect sense to me. Yes, but about 99% of these spells are not in the main list because they are actually sorcerer/Wizard spells.

But dragons can cast sorcerer/wizard spells anyway, so they don't need the access to the domain list to get access to these spells.
Zif
07-01-04, 08:48 AM The post I responded to seemed to think cleric domains in general were dumb, and I was contesting that.
Yes, but about 99% of these spells are not in the main list because they are actually sorcerer/Wizard spells.
I hate to tell you, but that is magnificently WRONG. At least half the spells on the domain lists are cleric spells, and a good many are druid spells. Please do actually read the domain lists some time so that you know what you're talking about. ;)

Gold dragons can cast Miracle, by the way. Does that sound useless?
Derren S.
07-01-04, 12:49 PM The domains are there for access to
1. Druid spells
2. Spells with lower level as normal
3. Domain only spells.

For example blue dragons get:
Wind Wall at lvl 2 (normally 3) , Whirlwind (Air and Druid only) and Elemental Swarm (Domain and Druid only) because of the air domain.

Dragons can choose all wiz/sorc, all cleric and all spells form their domains.
Amaron Blackthorn
07-01-04, 01:33 PM I think that it depends on the particular dragon. I am not sure if all dragons can cast cleric spells. Gold and RED and silver can cant they?
Derren S.
07-01-04, 01:36 PM Fromm the normal 10, all metallic, red and blue dragons can cast cleric spells (noted in a small sentence under the stats tables)
Amaron Blackthorn
07-01-04, 01:38 PM I wonder why the "lesser" chromatics cannot. They use to be able to in 2nd edition I thought or was I mistaken?
Derren S.
07-01-04, 01:40 PM I don't think any dragon could cast cleric spells in 2Ed.
Amaron Blackthorn
07-01-04, 01:43 PM I know that blues greens and reds and bronzes and golds and silvers could.
Pasquirlio
07-01-04, 02:28 PM Some of them where capable of cleric spells though it was always lower than there capability of arcane spells. Which wasn't very good in second, the oldest gold dragon couldn't even go beyond lv 8 spells(and even then it could only do 1 a day). To say the least dragon spellcasting was really bad in 2nd(i mean blacks never went beyond lv 1 wizard spells, but at least the great wyrm could cast 9 lv1's a day).
Amaron Blackthorn
07-01-04, 02:31 PM It is kind of sad, especially since in Dragonlance and I think in Greyhawk, the dragons are the children of gods.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tridiak 06-21-04, 02:55 AM	The 3.5 srd quotes "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the X, Y & Z Domains". Does this mean they can cast all Cleric spells or is it phrased wrongly? Seems overly powerful to me.
Kastas 06-21-04, 04:07 AM	It means that they can choose spells off of the cleric list and their domain lists as spells known. If spells are learned in this manner, they are considered arcane. This ability is more powerful than only being able to cast sorcerer spells, to be sure, but it's balanced by various factors: -Dragons can learn only a limited number of spells -Divine spells tend to be weaker than arcane spells -By the time dragons gain access to a new level of spells, they are often not very powerful compared to the dragon's other abilities
Pasquirlio 06-22-04, 10:13 AM	Musn't forget though that dragons are capable of free true resurrections. No spell components for them. Ofcourse no dragon around would give it for free. Fun quests not focusing on paying tribute(doesn't mean they don't have to be this is a dragon we're talking about after all) to get those true resurrections.
Zif 06-28-04, 09:23 AM	Um, who says divine spells cast as sorcerer spells no longer have material components?
Pasquirlio 06-28-04, 12:48 PM	No that's not what i meant. Dragons don't need material components for spells they cast.
Derren S. 06-28-04, 01:13 PM	Where does it say this? Edit: Found it, Draconomicon page 24. Makes me wonder what dragons can do with Fabricate.
Pasquirlio 06-28-04, 01:23 PM	First off, I used this as a general rule before i saw it printed. Personally i don't see dragons reaching for the bat dung to fireball someone. A trick best used by white's or silver's as their enemies usually prepare for ice. But pg 24 of the draconomicon discusses dragons and magic.
Pasquirlio 06-28-04, 01:27 PM	Beat me to it, you did.
Zif 06-28-04, 02:00 PM	I stand corrected. As for Fabricate, any sane DM would make the "component" into the "target" for purposes like this. It is only logical.
Derren S. 06-28-04, 02:04 PM	At least dragons can cast forbiddance on their whole lair without ruleslawyer arguing that dragons would never spend so much money...
Pasquirlio 06-28-04, 02:10 PM	Yeah it's along the lines of(well in my opinion don't know if there is an official rule for this) Causing power words(or stuff like that) to fail if cast with silent spell. Just a personal opinion of mine.
Mirtek 06-29-04, 07:03 AM	IMO this is either phrased wrongly or other articles talking about dragons are wrong. E.G. an old dragon articel talked about the one thing their abilities can not give them: healing But being phrased as it is: What'S going to stop a dragon from taking cure/heal as his spells? Also the mention of the domains makes no sense. Either a domain spell is a spell a cleric can cast anyway, or it's an arcane spell a cleric couldn't cast without this domain. But since dragons can cast arcane spells anyway, there's no need for them to mention the access to the domains. Because a dragon can already cast any given domain spell either as a cleric or an arcane spell without needing access to that domain. I believe they wanted to say that "Can also cast cleric spells from the X, Y & Z Domains" instead of "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the X, Y & Z Domains", but the way it's currently written a dragon can indeed cast all cleric spells and all sorcerer spells.
Derren S. 06-29-04, 07:51 AM	There are some divine spells which can only be accessed by domains like Orders Wrath. Also some domainspells are lower level than the normal cleric spell. And was this old dragon article before 3Ed? If yes then all information in there is outdated.
Zif 06-29-04, 10:59 AM	Also the mention of the domains makes no sense. Either a domain spell is a spell a cleric can cast anyway, or it's an arcane spell a cleric couldn't cast without this domain.A cleric's bonus domain spell MUST be taken from the domain list. If it's also on the main list, so what? And AFAIK, they can't cast domain spells not in the main list with slots other than domain slots. Makes perfect sense to me.
Mirtek 07-01-04, 04:41 AM	Originally posted by Zif A cleric's bonus domain spell MUST be taken from the domain list. But dragons do not receive bonus spellsOriginally posted by Zif If it's also on the main list, so what? And AFAIK, they can't cast domain spells not in the main list with slots other than domain slots.Makes perfect sense to me. Yes, but about 99% of these spells are not in the main list because they are actually sorcerer/Wizard spells. But dragons can cast sorcerer/wizard spells anyway, so they don't need the access to the domain list to get access to these spells.
Zif 07-01-04, 08:48 AM	The post I responded to seemed to think cleric domains in general were dumb, and I was contesting that. Yes, but about 99% of these spells are not in the main list because they are actually sorcerer/Wizard spells. I hate to tell you, but that is magnificently WRONG. At least half the spells on the domain lists are cleric spells, and a good many are druid spells. Please do actually read the domain lists some time so that you know what you're talking about. ;) Gold dragons can cast Miracle, by the way. Does that sound useless?
Derren S. 07-01-04, 12:49 PM	The domains are there for access to 1. Druid spells 2. Spells with lower level as normal 3. Domain only spells. For example blue dragons get: Wind Wall at lvl 2 (normally 3) , Whirlwind (Air and Druid only) and Elemental Swarm (Domain and Druid only) because of the air domain. Dragons can choose all wiz/sorc, all cleric and all spells form their domains.
Amaron Blackthorn 07-01-04, 01:33 PM	I think that it depends on the particular dragon. I am not sure if all dragons can cast cleric spells. Gold and RED and silver can cant they?
Derren S. 07-01-04, 01:36 PM	Fromm the normal 10, all metallic, red and blue dragons can cast cleric spells (noted in a small sentence under the stats tables)
Amaron Blackthorn 07-01-04, 01:38 PM	I wonder why the "lesser" chromatics cannot. They use to be able to in 2nd edition I thought or was I mistaken?
Derren S. 07-01-04, 01:40 PM	I don't think any dragon could cast cleric spells in 2Ed.
Amaron Blackthorn 07-01-04, 01:43 PM	I know that blues greens and reds and bronzes and golds and silvers could.
Pasquirlio 07-01-04, 02:28 PM	Some of them where capable of cleric spells though it was always lower than there capability of arcane spells. Which wasn't very good in second, the oldest gold dragon couldn't even go beyond lv 8 spells(and even then it could only do 1 a day). To say the least dragon spellcasting was really bad in 2nd(i mean blacks never went beyond lv 1 wizard spells, but at least the great wyrm could cast 9 lv1's a day).
Amaron Blackthorn 07-01-04, 02:31 PM	It is kind of sad, especially since in Dragonlance and I think in Greyhawk, the dragons are the children of gods.