Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreedySmurf 12-11-05, 06:46 PM	Dragons in my homebake are bigger, meaner and nastier than than standard book versions. But I haven't set out on paper how exactly. One option I though of was giving them the Elite Array for stats, however struck a problem. Should the Elite Array replace the Dragons stats as a Wyrmling, and then apply the boosts from the age categories? Or is there another accepted method top apply an elite array to a dragon? Related question, I am yet to use a dragon against my PC's in 3.x, am I correct in thinking that the concensus around here is that they are overpowered for their CR? Cheers.
Radijs 12-11-05, 07:09 PM	You'd have to apply the stat array to the wyrmlings yes. As for their CR, well it depends. If a party comes prepared the dragons will be easier to beat then their CR would indicate. If they come unprepared the dragons would be tougher then their CR indicates.
Wolf72 12-11-05, 08:07 PM	dropping that 8 anywhere might hurt the dragon a bit ... either in combat or spells ... but I guess that 15 will compensate
Radijs 12-12-05, 05:59 AM	Wolf, I think he means the elite array stats wich are 18 18 18 18 18 18.
mythSSK 12-12-05, 06:59 AM	Wolf, I think he means the elite array stats wich are 18 18 18 18 18 18.OR Wolf actually knows what he's talking about, unlike yourself. The Elite Array is a defined set of base stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. As for Dragon CR's... well, as you may have seen someone quote around the place "If a dragon isn't a TPK, you aren't playing it right." This only really applies for the older ones though... but even a wyrmling can give inflict serious losses on a low-level party and still escape to fight another day.
Wolf72 12-12-05, 06:19 PM	Wolf, I think he means the elite array stats wich are 18 18 18 18 18 18. all 18's ... that's a bit more than elite. read what mythSSK wrote.
cwslyclgh 12-12-05, 07:03 PM	I think straight 18's would be "ultra-elite" at the very least ;)
mythSSK 12-12-05, 07:12 PM	I think straight 18's would be "ultra-elite" at the very least ;)I actually have an 'über-l33t array' that I use for BBEGs and things that I want to be really tough. Continues the pattern set by the nonelite and elite arrays as best as i could make it: 17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10.
kinem 12-12-05, 09:05 PM	To apply the Elite Array to a monster, don't replace the stats. The array represents the "3d6" portion of the stats (for a lucky roll!), while the stats in the MM are merely averages. Add the difference between elite stats and normal stats to the monster's stats, in even increments. In other words add the following to whichever stats you see fit: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2. These are not bonuses, because the monster was just born with above average stats from his 3d6 rolls. You can use the elite array whenever you add PC class levels to a monster. Dragons typically should have class levels so I wouldn't say your dragons are any tougher than normal; the dragons in the MM are simply less tough than normal dragons because they represent the baseline before class levels.
GreedySmurf 12-13-05, 01:44 AM	To apply the Elite Array to a monster, don't replace the stats. The array represents the "3d6" portion of the stats (for a lucky roll!), while the stats in the MM are merely averages. Add the difference between elite stats and normal stats to the monster's stats, in even increments. In other words add the following to whichever stats you see fit: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2. These are not bonuses, because the monster was just born with above average stats from his 3d6 rolls. You can use the elite array whenever you add PC class levels to a monster. Dragons typically should have class levels so I wouldn't say your dragons are any tougher than normal; the dragons in the MM are simply less tough than normal dragons because they represent the baseline before class levels. Thanks, that's easier than replacing stats at wyrmling and then adding from there :) And with Class levels, regardless of anything else I might add for specific NPC Dragons, I've decided my dragons are all inately highly magical (more so then normal) so as a basic mechanic I've been toying with all Dragons gaining 2 levels of Sorcerer per age category, for purposes of spellcasting ability anyway. :smirk:
Borris 12-13-05, 03:25 AM	Giving the Elite Array (+4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2) to a monster should boost his CR by 1. Giving sorcerer levels to a dragon with sorcerer spellcasting will also boosts the CR by 1 per class level and automatically gives you the elite array for free. Feel free to make your dragons the best spellcasters in the world, but make sure you scale their CR accordingly, or it's instant TPK for your players.
Gemstone 12-13-05, 03:48 AM	Giving the Elite Array (+4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2) to a monster should boost his CR by 1. Giving sorcerer levels to a dragon with sorcerer spellcasting will also boosts the CR by 1 per class level and automatically gives you the elite array for free. Feel free to make your dragons the best spellcasters in the world, but make sure you scale their CR accordingly, or it's instant TPK for your players. Naah! Sorceror levels are not associated :D You could always do what I did... hand out a great wyrm black dragon (use gold stats, only change color of scales) and add DvR 0 on it, use the divine array and watch your players go hide in a bush <---- actually happened. We also learnt that dragons can apparelntly "slither" along the ground to gain a +20 bonus to hide and move silently