Dragons & Sundering [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons & Sundering [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cendragon
03-28-06, 12:26 PM Its states in the DMG that a magic weapon cannot be used to sunder another magic weapon unless its enhancement bonus is at least equal to the weapon trying to be sundered. How does this work for dragons and their natural attacks. Do they have an enhancement bonus and how is it calculated? If this is stated anywhere officially, can someone please point me there.

It states in the Monster Manual that Improved Sunder is a favored feat by dragons in general.
Talisman
03-28-06, 05:50 PM Looks like an oversight to me. Since DR is no longer based on the weapon's "plus," I'd say sundering shouldn't be either.
Eclipse Lutgehr
03-28-06, 06:11 PM The same thing is true for monks, and I honestly have to agree that it's an oversight. In games I've run, to combat this "faulty" ruling, any creature who's natural attacks are treated as magical has a base *virtual* enhancement bonus according to their HD. Here's what I've come up with:

For every 4 HD a creature has, it's virtual enhancement bonus gains +1, thus it's +1 at 4 HD, +2 at 8 HD, and so on. This works the same for monks. The virtual enhancement bonus never actually increases a creature/character's attack bonus or damage, but does apply with the effects of Sundering weapons.

Just my 2 cp, use it as you will...
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-29-06, 08:15 PM Check the errata.
DungeonMaster
03-29-06, 09:35 PM A monster with DR X/+1 can damage a +1 weapon. A monster with DR X/+2 can damage a +2 weapon and so forth.
runestar
03-29-06, 10:28 PM Sundering is no longer reliant on weapon enchantment. With a good enough roll, I could sunder a +6 vorpal greatsword with my masterwork longsword just fine... :cool: And that's the way I like it... ;)
Eclipse Lutgehr
03-29-06, 10:54 PM Sundering is no longer reliant on weapon enchantment. With a good enough roll, I could sunder a +6 vorpal greatsword with my masterwork longsword just fine... :cool: And that's the way I like it... ;)
So long as you could make it through the 22 hardness and potential 90 hp of said greatsword, why yes, you probably could :P. But that said, even an adamantine weapon would have trouble damaging said greatsword.
runestar
03-29-06, 11:10 PM Yeah, I know its nigh impossible, but I deliberately made an extreme scenario to prove my point. ;) I am sure that there are a couple of feats/abilities that let you ignore the toughness of an item...
pileobone
03-29-06, 11:12 PM Indeed, adamantine lets you ignore hardness.
Eclipse Lutgehr
03-29-06, 11:16 PM Yeah, I know its nigh impossible, but I deliberately made an extreme scenario to prove my point. I am sure that there are a couple of feats/abilities that let you ignore the toughness of an item...
Only one feat comes to mind, Focused Sunder from the XPH lets you ignore 1/2 an item's Hardness. I'd rather not search for more, but I'm sure there are more out there, even unoficially. I think the accumulated (un)published feat total is somewhere around 10,000 now.
Eclipse Lutgehr
03-29-06, 11:18 PM Indeed, adamantine lets you ignore hardness.
Only up to hardness 20 or less. The greatsword mentioned would have a hardness 22, thus being exempt from an adamantine weapon's ability. However, most +5 or lower weapons are sliced clean through by an adamantine weapon.
runestar
03-29-06, 11:53 PM I seem to recall an epic monk or barb feat which lets you ignore an object's hardness... :)
Derren S.
03-30-06, 03:00 AM Check the errata.

To elaborate on that, it was errataed that only a magic weapon can sunder a other magic weapon.
The only thing which protects magic weapons from sundering is their increased hardness and HP.
Raven Dark
03-30-06, 07:38 AM Only up to hardness 20 or less. The greatsword mentioned would have a hardness 22, thus being exempt from an adamantine weapon's ability. However, most +5 or lower weapons are sliced clean through by an adamantine weapon.

Actually it is 19 or less. If an item has hardness 20, then 20 points of damage will be negated every time an adamantine weapon hits it. This is to prevent adamantain eweapons from easily sundering each other, which wouldn't make sense.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cendragon 03-28-06, 12:26 PM	Its states in the DMG that a magic weapon cannot be used to sunder another magic weapon unless its enhancement bonus is at least equal to the weapon trying to be sundered. How does this work for dragons and their natural attacks. Do they have an enhancement bonus and how is it calculated? If this is stated anywhere officially, can someone please point me there. It states in the Monster Manual that Improved Sunder is a favored feat by dragons in general.
Talisman 03-28-06, 05:50 PM	Looks like an oversight to me. Since DR is no longer based on the weapon's "plus," I'd say sundering shouldn't be either.
Eclipse Lutgehr 03-28-06, 06:11 PM	The same thing is true for monks, and I honestly have to agree that it's an oversight. In games I've run, to combat this "faulty" ruling, any creature who's natural attacks are treated as magical has a base virtual enhancement bonus according to their HD. Here's what I've come up with: For every 4 HD a creature has, it's virtual enhancement bonus gains +1, thus it's +1 at 4 HD, +2 at 8 HD, and so on. This works the same for monks. The virtual enhancement bonus never actually increases a creature/character's attack bonus or damage, but does apply with the effects of Sundering weapons. Just my 2 cp, use it as you will...
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-29-06, 08:15 PM	Check the errata.
DungeonMaster 03-29-06, 09:35 PM	A monster with DR X/+1 can damage a +1 weapon. A monster with DR X/+2 can damage a +2 weapon and so forth.
runestar 03-29-06, 10:28 PM	Sundering is no longer reliant on weapon enchantment. With a good enough roll, I could sunder a +6 vorpal greatsword with my masterwork longsword just fine... :cool: And that's the way I like it... ;)
Eclipse Lutgehr 03-29-06, 10:54 PM	Sundering is no longer reliant on weapon enchantment. With a good enough roll, I could sunder a +6 vorpal greatsword with my masterwork longsword just fine... :cool: And that's the way I like it... ;) So long as you could make it through the 22 hardness and potential 90 hp of said greatsword, why yes, you probably could :P. But that said, even an adamantine weapon would have trouble damaging said greatsword.
runestar 03-29-06, 11:10 PM	Yeah, I know its nigh impossible, but I deliberately made an extreme scenario to prove my point. ;) I am sure that there are a couple of feats/abilities that let you ignore the toughness of an item...
pileobone 03-29-06, 11:12 PM	Indeed, adamantine lets you ignore hardness.
Eclipse Lutgehr 03-29-06, 11:16 PM	Yeah, I know its nigh impossible, but I deliberately made an extreme scenario to prove my point. I am sure that there are a couple of feats/abilities that let you ignore the toughness of an item... Only one feat comes to mind, Focused Sunder from the XPH lets you ignore 1/2 an item's Hardness. I'd rather not search for more, but I'm sure there are more out there, even unoficially. I think the accumulated (un)published feat total is somewhere around 10,000 now.
Eclipse Lutgehr 03-29-06, 11:18 PM	Indeed, adamantine lets you ignore hardness. Only up to hardness 20 or less. The greatsword mentioned would have a hardness 22, thus being exempt from an adamantine weapon's ability. However, most +5 or lower weapons are sliced clean through by an adamantine weapon.
runestar 03-29-06, 11:53 PM	I seem to recall an epic monk or barb feat which lets you ignore an object's hardness... :)
Derren S. 03-30-06, 03:00 AM	Check the errata. To elaborate on that, it was errataed that only a magic weapon can sunder a other magic weapon. The only thing which protects magic weapons from sundering is their increased hardness and HP.
Raven Dark 03-30-06, 07:38 AM	Only up to hardness 20 or less. The greatsword mentioned would have a hardness 22, thus being exempt from an adamantine weapon's ability. However, most +5 or lower weapons are sliced clean through by an adamantine weapon. Actually it is 19 or less. If an item has hardness 20, then 20 points of damage will be negated every time an adamantine weapon hits it. This is to prevent adamantain eweapons from easily sundering each other, which wouldn't make sense.