dragons and civilization [Archive] - Wizards Community

dragons and civilization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
asurademon
02-12-07, 08:40 PM Considering how extremely intelligent dragons are, I've been thinking it would be reasonable that perhaps at one time they had some sort of civilization (possiblly even a very advanced one). I kind of envision them having had an ancient civilization in which magic was particularly important (in fact I'm considering dragons being a race orignally created to be guardians of magic and its secrets). But then I'm thinking, that them having been civilized creatures at one point is contrary to the depiction of dragons as being intelligent, magical, but still animalistic, predators which aren't particularly social, and I'm worried about the idea of a Draconic civilization ending up cheezy.
So I wanted to know other peoples take on the idea of an ancient dragon civilization, and if anyone has ever used such a thing in their games before.
primemover003
02-12-07, 08:43 PM Well that's pretty much the ancient History of the Forgotten Realms setting.
asurademon
02-12-07, 08:45 PM Really? I need to get some Forgotten Realms books badly. What book in particular details the history of dragons in FR?
primemover003
02-12-07, 09:00 PM The best novelization would be a short story in the Anthology Realms of Dragons. The Dragons of Faerun accessory goes into it, as does the History section of the FRCS.

Your best bet to find good information is to google the Dracorage Mythal.
NerdNumber1
02-12-07, 09:02 PM Dragons tend to be a bit too paranoid about their precious hoard to live in large comunities. Also, what would it accomplish? Dragons can get food easily, use magic, etc. It is easier and more fun for them to become god/ruler/protector of a society of lesser beings (kobolds, humans, etc.). Why be citizen when you can be god.
asurademon
02-12-07, 09:27 PM Well, for humans the purpose of civilization is in large part to aid in the survival of the species, but in the case of dragons for whom surviving completely on their own is probably not going to be a challenge (unless they irritate the wrong advenurers), I think the lure of civilization would be that it's a chance to them to really excercise their great intelligence. Civilization makes it easier for individuals to get together and share knowledge, and also to keep knowledge, and build upon what others have discovered. Chormatic dragons might not be so interested in sharing or recording knowledge (though even they could benefit from such) but metallic dragons might be more interested in such a thing. Also if a creature wants to exercise their ingenuity through the creation of technology, having a civilization really helps.

I definately can see the too paranoid about their hoard, and preferring to lord over lesser beings instead in the case of chromatic dragons though.
NerdNumber1
02-12-07, 10:42 PM Also the hoard instinct could extend to knowledge (even good dragons).
Derren S.
02-13-07, 02:51 AM Also, what would it accomplish? Dragons can get food easily, use magic, etc.

That is the point. Dragons don't need a civilization with cities etc. They don't need farming as they can eat everything. They don't need protection as they are among the most powerful creatures in the world. And they don't need tools. So why would they need to build cities?
Also dragons do have a civilization. Golds have their king, silvers have their family clans, bronzes are apparently one big family and blues and greens have a very structured pecking order.

Don't confuse civilization with buildings.
ank
02-15-07, 09:10 PM I could see a civilization in which there are two groups: the evil and good dragons which get along, but with much tension. In a sense, you could model it after Athens and Sparta (unless my history is WAY off here). Its a plausable idea, if dragons can be the rulers of other races and have titles amongst themselves, why can't you extend it a little further and have a dragon civilization?
Tequila_Sunrise
02-15-07, 09:36 PM In 2nd edition there was a campaign setting called Council of Wyrms in which all dragons lived in (relative) peace. It wasn't natural though; Io had to terrify dragonkind into organizing itself in order for them to live in relative proximity to each other.
Derren S.
02-16-07, 02:34 AM There is also a 3rd party setting, Dragonstar, from FFG which features a draconic empire (in a Sci-FI setting). There good and evil dragons form a unstable society because of fearing an all out war which would destroy all dragonkind (A previous war already exterminated a minor draconic race).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
asurademon 02-12-07, 08:40 PM	Considering how extremely intelligent dragons are, I've been thinking it would be reasonable that perhaps at one time they had some sort of civilization (possiblly even a very advanced one). I kind of envision them having had an ancient civilization in which magic was particularly important (in fact I'm considering dragons being a race orignally created to be guardians of magic and its secrets). But then I'm thinking, that them having been civilized creatures at one point is contrary to the depiction of dragons as being intelligent, magical, but still animalistic, predators which aren't particularly social, and I'm worried about the idea of a Draconic civilization ending up cheezy. So I wanted to know other peoples take on the idea of an ancient dragon civilization, and if anyone has ever used such a thing in their games before.
primemover003 02-12-07, 08:43 PM	Well that's pretty much the ancient History of the Forgotten Realms setting.
asurademon 02-12-07, 08:45 PM	Really? I need to get some Forgotten Realms books badly. What book in particular details the history of dragons in FR?
primemover003 02-12-07, 09:00 PM	The best novelization would be a short story in the Anthology Realms of Dragons. The Dragons of Faerun accessory goes into it, as does the History section of the FRCS. Your best bet to find good information is to google the Dracorage Mythal.
NerdNumber1 02-12-07, 09:02 PM	Dragons tend to be a bit too paranoid about their precious hoard to live in large comunities. Also, what would it accomplish? Dragons can get food easily, use magic, etc. It is easier and more fun for them to become god/ruler/protector of a society of lesser beings (kobolds, humans, etc.). Why be citizen when you can be god.
asurademon 02-12-07, 09:27 PM	Well, for humans the purpose of civilization is in large part to aid in the survival of the species, but in the case of dragons for whom surviving completely on their own is probably not going to be a challenge (unless they irritate the wrong advenurers), I think the lure of civilization would be that it's a chance to them to really excercise their great intelligence. Civilization makes it easier for individuals to get together and share knowledge, and also to keep knowledge, and build upon what others have discovered. Chormatic dragons might not be so interested in sharing or recording knowledge (though even they could benefit from such) but metallic dragons might be more interested in such a thing. Also if a creature wants to exercise their ingenuity through the creation of technology, having a civilization really helps. I definately can see the too paranoid about their hoard, and preferring to lord over lesser beings instead in the case of chromatic dragons though.
NerdNumber1 02-12-07, 10:42 PM	Also the hoard instinct could extend to knowledge (even good dragons).
Derren S. 02-13-07, 02:51 AM	Also, what would it accomplish? Dragons can get food easily, use magic, etc. That is the point. Dragons don't need a civilization with cities etc. They don't need farming as they can eat everything. They don't need protection as they are among the most powerful creatures in the world. And they don't need tools. So why would they need to build cities? Also dragons do have a civilization. Golds have their king, silvers have their family clans, bronzes are apparently one big family and blues and greens have a very structured pecking order. Don't confuse civilization with buildings.
ank 02-15-07, 09:10 PM	I could see a civilization in which there are two groups: the evil and good dragons which get along, but with much tension. In a sense, you could model it after Athens and Sparta (unless my history is WAY off here). Its a plausable idea, if dragons can be the rulers of other races and have titles amongst themselves, why can't you extend it a little further and have a dragon civilization?
Tequila_Sunrise 02-15-07, 09:36 PM	In 2nd edition there was a campaign setting called Council of Wyrms in which all dragons lived in (relative) peace. It wasn't natural though; Io had to terrify dragonkind into organizing itself in order for them to live in relative proximity to each other.
Derren S. 02-16-07, 02:34 AM	There is also a 3rd party setting, Dragonstar, from FFG which features a draconic empire (in a Sci-FI setting). There good and evil dragons form a unstable society because of fearing an all out war which would destroy all dragonkind (A previous war already exterminated a minor draconic race).