Dragons and class levels. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons and class levels. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Davus Antonius
04-09-04, 03:53 AM What classes are good to add to a dragon? I'm going to use a Great Wyrm Shadow Dragon as the main foe for the PC's and I was wondering how to make it nastier for them. I have, or can get access to all WotC material, so please only suggestions from those sources. I do plan on adding templates to this beast as well, so any suggestions there would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.
Doberfuhr
04-09-04, 04:12 AM If we are talking about a Shadow Dragon here, then the answer is rather simple. Its primary attributes are intellectual: extremely high Intelligence and Wisdom, hence a suggested emphasis should be upon a spellcasting class, preferably a prestige class to exalt the already considerable number of Sorcerer levels inherent to the creature.

Thus, depending on the degree of challenge, may I suggest giving it 5 Archmage levels (would make it the equivalent of Sorcerer 22) and full progression (i.e. ten levels) as a Diabolist (Book of Vile Darkness). That should round off its spellcasting and summoning abilities nicely.

Alternatively, give it 20 levels as a Necromancer to gain the full effect of bonus spells as a result of intelligence and the additional spell per level inherent to the specialist class.

Spells should have a Necromantic, Vile, or Diabolical accent (one could also consider making it Fiendish).

Add six hit dice (as per Advanced Dragons from the Draconomicon) with all pertinent modifiers if desired to boost the Shadow Dragon's relative modest physical potential.

Consider making it a Dragon Vampire (as per Draconomicon option) or Dracolich (viz. Auroglorossa from the 2nd Edition Cult of the Dragon book). Once again, this may be going overboard so you should deliberate carefully on this option.
strenoth
04-09-04, 04:49 AM and if you ant to make it nasty with soem ,mostly-flavor abilities, spond the cross-class skill point sto qualify for Shadow Danvcer, and take several levels in it (10, more if you have epic rule book)...

can you just imagien a shadow dragont hat can effectively hide anywhere at nigth time or udnerground?
Davus Antonius
04-10-04, 12:05 AM Here's what I've got so far. I deliberately haven't chosen skills or feats yet because I want to see if I've got the templates right first. Any comments would be appreciated.

Estulminwe Lanaryon
Paragon, Fiendish, Monster of Legend, Great Wyrm Shadow Dragon (Female)
Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice:37d12+814+444 (1702)
Initiative:+12
Speed:80' ft., fly 150' ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 87 (-4 size, +12 Dex, +45 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck); touch 42; flatfooted 75
Base Atack/Grapple: +37/+61
Attack: Bite +66 melee (4d8+28)
Full Attack: 1 Bite +66 melee (4d8+28)+ poison, 2 Claw +61 melee (4d6+14), 2 wing +56 melee (2d8+14), 1 tail slap +51 melee (2d8+42)
Space/Reach:20 ft. by 40 ft./ 15ft.
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Poison, Frightfull presence, Spells, Spell-like abillities, Tail sweep, Smite good
Special Qualities: Immune to acid / poison / energy drain / sleep / paralysis, Fire and cold resistance 20, Damage reduction 20/ epic, Spell resistance 50, Fast healing 20, Shadow Blend, Create Shadows
Saves:Fort +53; Refl +43; Will +53
Abilities: Str 67; Dex 35; Con 55; Int 55 ; Wis 55 ; Cha 59
Skills:
Feats: 12
Enviroment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, family(1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Chalange Rating: 40 (24+12+2+2)
Treasure: Tripple Standard
Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Combat
Breath Weapon (Su): 60 ft. cone and PC's take 8 negative levels with a Reflex save (DC 62) for half.
Create Shadows (Su): Three times per day, a great wyrm shadow dragon can conjure a mass of leaping shadows with a radius of 100 yards and a duration of 1 hour (this is a creation effect). All normal and magical light sources are negated within this radius. All character and creatures gain a +4 bonus on their Hide checks within the shadows, and can hide even if directly observed, The shadow dragon and other creatures with ties to the Plane of Shadow gain total concealment within the shadows, though they can move and attack normally. Their attaks gain a +2 bonus and deny their opponents any Dexterity bonus to AC, because they are considered invisible.
Crush (Ex): Area 20 ft. by 40 ft.; Medium or smaller opponents take (4d6+42) of bludgeoning damage, Reflex DC 62 for half.
Frightfull Presence (Ex): 360 ft. radius, 36HD or less, Will DC 64 negates
Pioson (Ex): In the event of a successful bite attack, the bitten opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 62) or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. On a failed save the character must make another save on the following round for the same damage.
Shadow Blend (Su): In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a very young or older shadow dragon can dissapear into the shadows, giving total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this abillity. A daylight spell, however, does.
Spell-like Abillities: 3/day – greater dispelling, haste, mirror immage, nondetection, see invisibility; 2/day – dimension door; 1/day – shadow walk.
Spells: As a 17th-level sorcer
Sorcerer spells known:
strenoth
04-10-04, 03:21 AM Holy.. I'm on these boards when tired again (see typos in last post in this thread, yech), so nto going to even try and analyse stats right now, but you must be wanting tio kill your player's characters if they are not like level 40 plus...

DC62 ref save or 8 negative levels? Jeeze... just breath, go hide till you can breath again, and repeat. at level 40, 5 breaths on anythign with out a (very)good reflex save is dead (though proper preparation with protction form negative energy could go a logn way in this fight).

At least make sure your players have a clue about some elite, nasty shadow dragon before they fight this monster.

i'd recomend Half-fiend instead of fiendish though. little bit more powerful.

got the Book of Vile Darkness? might be a PrC or two int here you might like, like oen that grants ALL naturall attacks the ability to inflict 1 or two negative levels upon yoru foes, and some other nice ones.

Got the Expanded Psionics Handbook? how about adding the Psionics template, really confuse your players!

or befuddle them with levels of Pyrokinetisist, available for the cost of 1 feat, or a level in any psionic class, and a few skill points. (you are gonna have high ranks in concentration anyway.

befuddle your foes with tumble!
Ojin
04-11-04, 06:26 PM Probably one of the scariest combos my group has come across was a great wyrm shadow dragon with assassin levels - it wiped the floor with us. It lured us into a controlled environment (which wasn't too hard for it because we were way too confident in retrospect) and then used its create shadows ability with its natural shadow blend to play cat-and-mouse with us. Whenever it attacked, it got all the extra sneak attack damage because of its total concealment (and six sneak attacks in a single round really hurt coupled the dragon's natural attacks). Moreover, because it was just toying with us, it would leave the party alone for a couple of rounds (we didn't realize then that 3 rounds was a magic number), let us heal up a bit, and then use the assassin's death attack with its naturally high intelligence to kill us off one at a time. After using its breath weapon to give us all a huge penalty to our saves (having death ward dispelled twice probably clinched our fate), we dropped like proverbal flies. At the time, we were most unimpressed with our DM but we all remember that story now with a certain amount of "just how stupid were we" type humour. Still, an assassin shadow dragon can be very nasty.
MrFahrenheit
04-17-04, 01:10 AM I always thought cleric if you're looking at base classes. Dragons have always seemed very religious to me.

One dragon idea I'm thinking about would be a great wyrm topaz dragon with 20 levels in cleric (of Astilabor). The topaz dragon has basically organized (even though it's CN- it had an odd upbringing) a crime sindicate which steals all the wealth and riches from surrounding areas (think small armies of hoardstealers, though working for a dragon rather than against it). Therefore, any attack that has ever happened against the dragon has always been severely underfunded and would dry up in a matter of days. The dragon has a fighting force aside from the hoardstealers - all guerilla-ish in nature though. It has a grand notion of conquering the continent, hoarding all its treasures, and giving out gold "as necessary" to individuals to pay for things to keep them living and producing more wealth. Other than that, he would remain true to neutrality by not interfering or caring about any aspect of the people's lives.

He also has an advisor, an elven druid and dracolyte of Astilabor, who believes that money is keeping people from being at peace with nature and therefore the dragon having it would make people be better-off and more harmonious with the world around them.
obrysii
04-17-04, 04:05 PM What about, say, a Great Gold Wyrm monk 20? That would be nasty. All those nasty bonuses, and the unarmed attacks would do a considerable amount of damage!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Davus Antonius 04-09-04, 03:53 AM	What classes are good to add to a dragon? I'm going to use a Great Wyrm Shadow Dragon as the main foe for the PC's and I was wondering how to make it nastier for them. I have, or can get access to all WotC material, so please only suggestions from those sources. I do plan on adding templates to this beast as well, so any suggestions there would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.
Doberfuhr 04-09-04, 04:12 AM	If we are talking about a Shadow Dragon here, then the answer is rather simple. Its primary attributes are intellectual: extremely high Intelligence and Wisdom, hence a suggested emphasis should be upon a spellcasting class, preferably a prestige class to exalt the already considerable number of Sorcerer levels inherent to the creature. Thus, depending on the degree of challenge, may I suggest giving it 5 Archmage levels (would make it the equivalent of Sorcerer 22) and full progression (i.e. ten levels) as a Diabolist (Book of Vile Darkness). That should round off its spellcasting and summoning abilities nicely. Alternatively, give it 20 levels as a Necromancer to gain the full effect of bonus spells as a result of intelligence and the additional spell per level inherent to the specialist class. Spells should have a Necromantic, Vile, or Diabolical accent (one could also consider making it Fiendish). Add six hit dice (as per Advanced Dragons from the Draconomicon) with all pertinent modifiers if desired to boost the Shadow Dragon's relative modest physical potential. Consider making it a Dragon Vampire (as per Draconomicon option) or Dracolich (viz. Auroglorossa from the 2nd Edition Cult of the Dragon book). Once again, this may be going overboard so you should deliberate carefully on this option.
strenoth 04-09-04, 04:49 AM	and if you ant to make it nasty with soem ,mostly-flavor abilities, spond the cross-class skill point sto qualify for Shadow Danvcer, and take several levels in it (10, more if you have epic rule book)... can you just imagien a shadow dragont hat can effectively hide anywhere at nigth time or udnerground?
Davus Antonius 04-10-04, 12:05 AM	Here's what I've got so far. I deliberately haven't chosen skills or feats yet because I want to see if I've got the templates right first. Any comments would be appreciated. Estulminwe Lanaryon Paragon, Fiendish, Monster of Legend, Great Wyrm Shadow Dragon (Female) Gargantuan Magical Beast Hit Dice:37d12+814+444 (1702) Initiative:+12 Speed:80' ft., fly 150' ft. (poor) Armor Class: 87 (-4 size, +12 Dex, +45 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck); touch 42; flatfooted 75 Base Atack/Grapple: +37/+61 Attack: Bite +66 melee (4d8+28) Full Attack: 1 Bite +66 melee (4d8+28)+ poison, 2 Claw +61 melee (4d6+14), 2 wing +56 melee (2d8+14), 1 tail slap +51 melee (2d8+42) Space/Reach:20 ft. by 40 ft./ 15ft. Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Poison, Frightfull presence, Spells, Spell-like abillities, Tail sweep, Smite good Special Qualities: Immune to acid / poison / energy drain / sleep / paralysis, Fire and cold resistance 20, Damage reduction 20/ epic, Spell resistance 50, Fast healing 20, Shadow Blend, Create Shadows Saves:Fort +53; Refl +43; Will +53 Abilities: Str 67; Dex 35; Con 55; Int 55 ; Wis 55 ; Cha 59 Skills: Feats: 12 Enviroment: Any land and underground Organization: Solitary, pair, family(1-2 and 2-5 offspring) Chalange Rating: 40 (24+12+2+2) Treasure: Tripple Standard Alignment: Chaotic Evil Combat Breath Weapon (Su): 60 ft. cone and PC's take 8 negative levels with a Reflex save (DC 62) for half. Create Shadows (Su): Three times per day, a great wyrm shadow dragon can conjure a mass of leaping shadows with a radius of 100 yards and a duration of 1 hour (this is a creation effect). All normal and magical light sources are negated within this radius. All character and creatures gain a +4 bonus on their Hide checks within the shadows, and can hide even if directly observed, The shadow dragon and other creatures with ties to the Plane of Shadow gain total concealment within the shadows, though they can move and attack normally. Their attaks gain a +2 bonus and deny their opponents any Dexterity bonus to AC, because they are considered invisible. Crush (Ex): Area 20 ft. by 40 ft.; Medium or smaller opponents take (4d6+42) of bludgeoning damage, Reflex DC 62 for half. Frightfull Presence (Ex): 360 ft. radius, 36HD or less, Will DC 64 negates Pioson (Ex): In the event of a successful bite attack, the bitten opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 62) or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. On a failed save the character must make another save on the following round for the same damage. Shadow Blend (Su): In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a very young or older shadow dragon can dissapear into the shadows, giving total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this abillity. A daylight spell, however, does. Spell-like Abillities: 3/day – greater dispelling, haste, mirror immage, nondetection, see invisibility; 2/day – dimension door; 1/day – shadow walk. Spells: As a 17th-level sorcer Sorcerer spells known:
strenoth 04-10-04, 03:21 AM	Holy.. I'm on these boards when tired again (see typos in last post in this thread, yech), so nto going to even try and analyse stats right now, but you must be wanting tio kill your player's characters if they are not like level 40 plus... DC62 ref save or 8 negative levels? Jeeze... just breath, go hide till you can breath again, and repeat. at level 40, 5 breaths on anythign with out a (very)good reflex save is dead (though proper preparation with protction form negative energy could go a logn way in this fight). At least make sure your players have a clue about some elite, nasty shadow dragon before they fight this monster. i'd recomend Half-fiend instead of fiendish though. little bit more powerful. got the Book of Vile Darkness? might be a PrC or two int here you might like, like oen that grants ALL naturall attacks the ability to inflict 1 or two negative levels upon yoru foes, and some other nice ones. Got the Expanded Psionics Handbook? how about adding the Psionics template, really confuse your players! or befuddle them with levels of Pyrokinetisist, available for the cost of 1 feat, or a level in any psionic class, and a few skill points. (you are gonna have high ranks in concentration anyway. befuddle your foes with tumble!
Ojin 04-11-04, 06:26 PM	Probably one of the scariest combos my group has come across was a great wyrm shadow dragon with assassin levels - it wiped the floor with us. It lured us into a controlled environment (which wasn't too hard for it because we were way too confident in retrospect) and then used its create shadows ability with its natural shadow blend to play cat-and-mouse with us. Whenever it attacked, it got all the extra sneak attack damage because of its total concealment (and six sneak attacks in a single round really hurt coupled the dragon's natural attacks). Moreover, because it was just toying with us, it would leave the party alone for a couple of rounds (we didn't realize then that 3 rounds was a magic number), let us heal up a bit, and then use the assassin's death attack with its naturally high intelligence to kill us off one at a time. After using its breath weapon to give us all a huge penalty to our saves (having death ward dispelled twice probably clinched our fate), we dropped like proverbal flies. At the time, we were most unimpressed with our DM but we all remember that story now with a certain amount of "just how stupid were we" type humour. Still, an assassin shadow dragon can be very nasty.
MrFahrenheit 04-17-04, 01:10 AM	I always thought cleric if you're looking at base classes. Dragons have always seemed very religious to me. One dragon idea I'm thinking about would be a great wyrm topaz dragon with 20 levels in cleric (of Astilabor). The topaz dragon has basically organized (even though it's CN- it had an odd upbringing) a crime sindicate which steals all the wealth and riches from surrounding areas (think small armies of hoardstealers, though working for a dragon rather than against it). Therefore, any attack that has ever happened against the dragon has always been severely underfunded and would dry up in a matter of days. The dragon has a fighting force aside from the hoardstealers - all guerilla-ish in nature though. It has a grand notion of conquering the continent, hoarding all its treasures, and giving out gold "as necessary" to individuals to pay for things to keep them living and producing more wealth. Other than that, he would remain true to neutrality by not interfering or caring about any aspect of the people's lives. He also has an advisor, an elven druid and dracolyte of Astilabor, who believes that money is keeping people from being at peace with nature and therefore the dragon having it would make people be better-off and more harmonious with the world around them.
obrysii 04-17-04, 04:05 PM	What about, say, a Great Gold Wyrm monk 20? That would be nasty. All those nasty bonuses, and the unarmed attacks would do a considerable amount of damage!