Dragons and half-fiend template [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons and half-fiend template [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Will Brandiman
01-10-07, 10:56 AM I'm currently running the 3.0 adventure "Bastion of Broken Souls" in which the final monster is a half-fiend, great wyrm red dragon. Whilst converting the adventure to 3.5 I discovered something truly scary. This bad boy has 40 racial HD and therefore gets all of the half-fiend spell-like abilites at a caster level of 40 and a save DC of 38+spell level.

This includes Blasphemy.

With a caster level of 40 that means that it will almost certainly kill an entire party with one spell, allowing no save and with little chance of failing to penetrate any SR that the party might have.

Is there no cap on the caster level for these abilities? Has it been errata'd anywhere? The Smite Good ability is capped at +20, but not the spell-like abilities. It seems ridiculous that a CR 29 monster, even a dragon, should be able to obliterate an entire party of anything less than 30th level with one spell.
Witch
01-10-07, 11:00 AM Nope, there's no cap. Any party worth its salt that is aware it's dealing with fiends or spellcasters of far higher level, should have Greater Spell Immunity up against these things.
Will Brandiman
01-10-07, 11:13 AM Nope, there's no cap. Any party worth its salt that is aware it's dealing with fiends or spellcasters of far higher level, should have Greater Spell Immunity up against these things. They're SO dead. :D
Witch
01-10-07, 11:15 AM I'd suggest you give them some hints on beforehand - such as a weaker half-fiend using blasphemy against them to automatically stun them for a round. That will be fár less deadly, and they might just realize the danger of the spell soon enough to ward against it.
Will Brandiman
01-10-07, 11:24 AM I'd suggest you give them some hints on beforehand - such as a weaker half-fiend using blasphemy against them to automatically stun them for a round. That will be fár less deadly, and they might just realize the danger of the spell soon enough to ward against it. Thanks. There are plenty of demons before they get to the dragon so I think I'll have a few of them pop Blasphemy out and see if they take the hint.
ank
01-11-07, 08:57 PM Just out of curiosity, are you refering to the dragon Ashardalon?
runestar
01-12-07, 01:15 AM How the heck are you getting those high save dcs? HD has nothing to do with spell dcs whatsoever, and a dragon's cha, while high, is not that high...:confused:
Derren S.
01-12-07, 01:18 AM How the heck are you getting those high save dcs? HD has nothing to do with spell dcs whatsoever, and a dragon's cha, while high, is not that high...:confused:
Well, its not that Blasphemy does have a save.
NerdNumber1
01-12-07, 10:26 AM You could always go with the one almost dead survivor. "My entire company was wiped out as the the dragon flicked his wrist. Lucky for me he wasn't paying attention and flew off before checking for survivors."
Dumat
01-12-07, 11:33 AM How the heck are you getting those high save dcs? HD has nothing to do with spell dcs whatsoever, and a dragon's cha, while high, is not that high...:confused:
Agreed...unless I'm missing something, that dragon would have to have Cha of >50. Just for clarification:

Spell-Like Abilities

A half-fiend with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.
Orchomenos
01-12-07, 01:25 PM He must be confusing Spell-Like Abilities and Supernatural Abilities:

Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Supernatural: Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

But a caster levl of 40 is still insane if the PCs have some spell resistance or attempt a Dispel Magic.
NerdNumber1
01-12-07, 02:06 PM It doesn't matter, the death effect doesn't allow a save, only the anti-outsider effect.
Will Brandiman
01-13-07, 09:10 AM He must be confusing Spell-Like Abilities and Supernatural Abilities Correct, I was getting the two confused but as others have pointed out, it's irrelevant as there is no save for Blasphemy.

But a caster levl of 40 is still insane if the PCs have some spell resistance or attempt a Dispel Magic. The only character in the party with spell resistance has, I believe, 18. They can of course get spells to grant SR that is higher but even with that the dragon (yes, it is Ashardalon) rolls 1d20+40 to penetrate it. They'd need SR 51 to have a 50/50 chance!

Even without the Blasphemy though, I don't understand how any party could hope to beat this creature if they are the correct level for the adventure (intro says 18th level at start, perhaps reaching 20th by the end). I have 5 level 20 characters in my group and they are all going to die unless I seriously pull my punches. Doesn't seem right.
Derren S.
01-13-07, 10:26 AM I have not played this adventure myself but from what I heared the fight happens in a small room with the manuverability of the dragon extremly limited. Thats his achiles heel.

Personally I despise such setups (Making the PCs fight powerfull monsters but gimp them into oblivion so that the PCs can defeat them).
runestar
01-13-07, 09:58 PM Anyways, the spellblade enhancement(PGTF) costs just 6000gp and makes you immune to a single spell. So no fears about blasphemy.:)
Derren S.
01-14-07, 02:12 AM Spellblade only works against targeted spells and Blashphemy is an area spell.
runestar
01-14-07, 02:27 AM Crap...:(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Will Brandiman 01-10-07, 10:56 AM	I'm currently running the 3.0 adventure "Bastion of Broken Souls" in which the final monster is a half-fiend, great wyrm red dragon. Whilst converting the adventure to 3.5 I discovered something truly scary. This bad boy has 40 racial HD and therefore gets all of the half-fiend spell-like abilites at a caster level of 40 and a save DC of 38+spell level. This includes Blasphemy. With a caster level of 40 that means that it will almost certainly kill an entire party with one spell, allowing no save and with little chance of failing to penetrate any SR that the party might have. Is there no cap on the caster level for these abilities? Has it been errata'd anywhere? The Smite Good ability is capped at +20, but not the spell-like abilities. It seems ridiculous that a CR 29 monster, even a dragon, should be able to obliterate an entire party of anything less than 30th level with one spell.
Witch 01-10-07, 11:00 AM	Nope, there's no cap. Any party worth its salt that is aware it's dealing with fiends or spellcasters of far higher level, should have Greater Spell Immunity up against these things.
Will Brandiman 01-10-07, 11:13 AM	Nope, there's no cap. Any party worth its salt that is aware it's dealing with fiends or spellcasters of far higher level, should have Greater Spell Immunity up against these things. They're SO dead. :D
Witch 01-10-07, 11:15 AM	I'd suggest you give them some hints on beforehand - such as a weaker half-fiend using blasphemy against them to automatically stun them for a round. That will be fár less deadly, and they might just realize the danger of the spell soon enough to ward against it.
Will Brandiman 01-10-07, 11:24 AM	I'd suggest you give them some hints on beforehand - such as a weaker half-fiend using blasphemy against them to automatically stun them for a round. That will be fár less deadly, and they might just realize the danger of the spell soon enough to ward against it. Thanks. There are plenty of demons before they get to the dragon so I think I'll have a few of them pop Blasphemy out and see if they take the hint.
ank 01-11-07, 08:57 PM	Just out of curiosity, are you refering to the dragon Ashardalon?
runestar 01-12-07, 01:15 AM	How the heck are you getting those high save dcs? HD has nothing to do with spell dcs whatsoever, and a dragon's cha, while high, is not that high...:confused:
Derren S. 01-12-07, 01:18 AM	How the heck are you getting those high save dcs? HD has nothing to do with spell dcs whatsoever, and a dragon's cha, while high, is not that high...:confused: Well, its not that Blasphemy does have a save.
NerdNumber1 01-12-07, 10:26 AM	You could always go with the one almost dead survivor. "My entire company was wiped out as the the dragon flicked his wrist. Lucky for me he wasn't paying attention and flew off before checking for survivors."
Dumat 01-12-07, 11:33 AM	How the heck are you getting those high save dcs? HD has nothing to do with spell dcs whatsoever, and a dragon's cha, while high, is not that high...:confused: Agreed...unless I'm missing something, that dragon would have to have Cha of >50. Just for clarification: Spell-Like Abilities A half-fiend with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.
Orchomenos 01-12-07, 01:25 PM	He must be confusing Spell-Like Abilities and Supernatural Abilities: Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance. A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier. Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. Supernatural: Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). But a caster levl of 40 is still insane if the PCs have some spell resistance or attempt a Dispel Magic.
NerdNumber1 01-12-07, 02:06 PM	It doesn't matter, the death effect doesn't allow a save, only the anti-outsider effect.
Will Brandiman 01-13-07, 09:10 AM	He must be confusing Spell-Like Abilities and Supernatural Abilities Correct, I was getting the two confused but as others have pointed out, it's irrelevant as there is no save for Blasphemy. But a caster levl of 40 is still insane if the PCs have some spell resistance or attempt a Dispel Magic. The only character in the party with spell resistance has, I believe, 18. They can of course get spells to grant SR that is higher but even with that the dragon (yes, it is Ashardalon) rolls 1d20+40 to penetrate it. They'd need SR 51 to have a 50/50 chance! Even without the Blasphemy though, I don't understand how any party could hope to beat this creature if they are the correct level for the adventure (intro says 18th level at start, perhaps reaching 20th by the end). I have 5 level 20 characters in my group and they are all going to die unless I seriously pull my punches. Doesn't seem right.
Derren S. 01-13-07, 10:26 AM	I have not played this adventure myself but from what I heared the fight happens in a small room with the manuverability of the dragon extremly limited. Thats his achiles heel. Personally I despise such setups (Making the PCs fight powerfull monsters but gimp them into oblivion so that the PCs can defeat them).
runestar 01-13-07, 09:58 PM	Anyways, the spellblade enhancement(PGTF) costs just 6000gp and makes you immune to a single spell. So no fears about blasphemy.:)
Derren S. 01-14-07, 02:12 AM	Spellblade only works against targeted spells and Blashphemy is an area spell.
runestar 01-14-07, 02:27 AM	Crap...:(