Post/Author/DateTime	Post
capnwoodrow 04-29-06, 01:58 AM	What would be considered a non-associated class level for a dragon? I know they are powerful physically AND get spellcasting, but would either type of progression be considered NA for them? Thanks!
runestar 04-29-06, 02:32 AM	It's a little ironic that while sorc lvs are technically associated classes, no one would take them as adancing in additional dragon HD would give them more bang for their cr increase. :( I am guessing any non-sorc spellcasting classes, such as wiz/cleric/psion etc? makes for fun with mystic theurge... ;)
Atirakis 04-29-06, 12:37 PM	thats crazy. Cleric, Wizard, Sorceror should all be associated as well as Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger. I would say Rogue and Bard would be the only NA classes I can think of.
runestar 04-29-06, 10:33 PM	Why would a non-sorc spellcasting class be considered associated when it does not directly contribute to a dragon's prowess in any way? :confused:
savant_warlord13 04-30-06, 10:45 AM	Anything psionic scout ninja spellthief druid
Atirakis 04-30-06, 01:23 PM	Why would a non-sorc spellcasting class be considered associated when it does not directly contribute to a dragon's prowess in any way? :confused: Are you asking how being able to learn any spell and getting the wizards progression of spells DOESNT help anyone, let alone a dragon who can combine deadly physical might with natural spells and then the wizard ones he picks up? Get real here a dragon is one of the deadliest creatures in the game and I really dont see how adding class levels of just about anything would be non associated. Cleric? Adding the ability to turn/rebuke, heal, and get spells from the divine list isnt helping? Barbarian? RAGE! nough said there. Fighter? Bonus feats and BA. Rogue? A dragon with improved evasion and sneak attack seems like a much greater challenge to me. The fact is that SOME creatures can have NA classes, some just dont qualify for NA classes. I would say that something as well rounded as a dragon would be one of the ones that wouldnt get NA classes. Adding anything to a dragon just makes it better, ALOT better. Is druid as good a choice as barbarian? Probably not, but I will show you a Dragon Druid that will whoop some ass.
Atirakis 04-30-06, 01:26 PM	Anything psionic scout ninja spellthief druid Ok savant_warlord13 the challenge to you is to explain to me how adding Psionic powers to a dragon doesnt make it more powerful and therefore qualify as an associated class? How about ninja? Sudden strike and improved evasion doesnt make a deadly dragon? Defend your statements instead of just making a list.
Delfedd 04-30-06, 02:11 PM	What? They're just things that aren't associated with dragons... I mean, any class is going to make anything more powerfull. That's the point of classes. They make you more powerful. I'm going to say that ninja's not though. Because who among us hasn't failed to see the dragon?
Khalarak Ironclaw 04-30-06, 03:07 PM	I see the above poster's point here. While ninja levels would certainly make a dragon more powerful, they would also make an ogre or minotaur much more deadly. But is it considered associated for either of these creatures? No. While dragons are certainly deadly in every sense of the word, their Dexterity score never gains a bonus, and this combined with their great size means that the only way they're going to be using that Sudden Strike is either through magical invisibility or a night-time dive-bombing from the sky (According to the MM's sample dragons, a CR 16 blue dragon only has a +11 hide bonus, well within spotting range of any of the 'scout' classes). Likewise, cleric levels make anything more dangerous, but the ability to heal yourself for 1d8+2 points of damage once a day and turn a handful of ghouls isn't going to matter much to an ancient red dragon, especially since he can simply take the cleric spells he needs as sorcerer spells. The same is true for psionics. One or two levels of psion added to a powerful dragon aren't going to significantly expand its offensive ability beyond what it already has at its disposal, unless you're using the rules in which psionics bypass most magical defenses. A sorceror level or two, on the other hand, might give it access to a whole new level of party-decimating spells or even powerful healing magic. Dragons are vicious, but they're really only bruisers and sorcerors. Any other class doesn't play to those strengths, and shouldn't be considered associated.
runestar 04-30-06, 11:30 PM	Are you asking how being able to learn any spell and getting the wizards progression of spells DOESNT help anyone, let alone a dragon who can combine deadly physical might with natural spells and then the wizard ones he picks up? Get real here a dragon is one of the deadliest creatures in the game and I really dont see how adding class levels of just about anything would be non associated. Cleric? Adding the ability to turn/rebuke, heal, and get spells from the divine list isnt helping? Barbarian? RAGE! nough said there. Fighter? Bonus feats and BA. Rogue? A dragon with improved evasion and sneak attack seems like a much greater challenge to me. The fact is that SOME creatures can have NA classes, some just dont qualify for NA classes. I would say that something as well rounded as a dragon would be one of the ones that wouldnt get NA classes. Adding anything to a dragon just makes it better, ALOT better. Is druid as good a choice as barbarian? Probably not, but I will show you a Dragon Druid that will whoop some ass. Non-associated does not mean it does not contribute to the dragon's strength, it simply means that the contribution is sub-optimal. Tell me how 2 wiz lvs to a great wyrm red dragon is worth the +2cr, when I could just improve it by 1 age category for the very same price, and much more benefits? Wiz lvs contribute little that a dragon's existing sorc lvs do not grant, and the opportunity cost would simply be too great if they were associated. And yes, I do not deny they do benefit, but all those are near worthless to a dragon unless present in very large quantities, and then there's the problem of overcoming sr. Tell me what undead you hope for a dragon cleric to turn for its cr? You would have much more effect breathing on them. :rolleyes: Plus, some dragons can already cast spells from the divine list.
Atirakis 05-01-06, 12:44 AM	Turning undead may not be the most effecient, but placing them under your command sure can be. Psionic Powers can greatly enhance a dragons physical prowess. Maybe 1 level of Psychic Warrior or Cleric might not quite be the same as +1 CR, but 10 levels of either seems like about +10 CR. A Young Adult Red Dragon that has 10 levels in Barbarian may be more physically capable per se, but a Young Adult Red Dragon with 10 levels of Psychic Warrior can amp his physical attacks in many many ways. Using the same dragon replace the class with Cleric, he can now heal 42hp with maximized cure critical and cast slay living. That is why they should be associated classes. Just because the lower levels dont pay off as much doesnt mean that it should only be +10-15 CR for a dragon with 20 levels in Cleric/Rogue/ect.
runestar 05-01-06, 01:17 AM	Turning undead may not be the most effecient, but placing them under your command sure can be. And pray tell what sort of undead are there are will prove a challenge as a minion at that cr, which a dragon with a few cleric lvs can possibly command? :confused: Using the same dragon replace the class with Cleric, he can now heal 42hp with maximized cure critical and cast slay living. Or he could just continue advancing in age categories. Are you saying that a young adult red dragon cleric10(cr23) is as powerful as an ancient red dragon? :eek: Every way I see it, the latter would rape the former regardless of whatever tricks the former can master. :( Conversely, stat wise, if those cleric lvs were non-associated class lvs, it would be cr18, more in line with the power lv of a mature adult. Could you provide more substantial evidence? I too am thinking of creating a few dragon npcs and would like more insight on how these classes affect their cr as well. :) The way I see it, most of the classes are quite worthless as the benefits they give are a poor substitute for more dragon HD.
Borris 05-01-06, 01:50 AM	Let's say you take a CR 16 or so dragon and give him 4 levels of Cleric. What does he get? Elite array, 4d8 hp, +3 BAB, +4 Fort, +1 Ref, +4 Will, 1st-and 2nd-level divine spells and a Turn Undead ability that can only work against undead of 8 HD or less in the best of cases. Does that make him a tougher challenge? Well, the hp, BAB, and good saves help a little, but the DC for reflex saves will be more than 1 higher for PCs that gain 4 levels, his Turn Undead is useless, and the puny 2d8+4 he can heal as a standard action is less than what any one character can deal in the same round. Therefore, it does raise his CR, but only by half the number of levels. On the other hand, if you give him levels of fighter instead, you replace the crappy spells, good Will save bonus, and useless turn undead ability with more hp, a better BAB, and 3 bonus feats to help him do something he's already good at: dealing damage. Similarly, if you give him sorcerer levels, instead of starting at 0 like for cleric levels, he gets to add them to the sorcerer caster levels he already had (usually around CL 7th for a CR 16 dragon), allowing him to cast spells two levels higher, most likely 5th-level spells, which will be useful in combat, unlike 2nd-level spells with a caster level of 4.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-01-06, 05:36 AM	Alright to everyone here: If you are adding class levels to something, it damn well better be tougher than what you started with, that's the frigg'n idea! I mean seriously, people are getting all grouchy over this, when it's working as intended. Is a level 5 fighter tougher than the level 1 fighter? Alright, now so everyone is on the same page, this is what the rules say: ADVANCED MONSTER CHALLENGE RATING When adding class levels to a creature with 1 or less HD, you advance the creature like a character. Otherwise, use the following guidelines. ADDING CLASS LEVELS If you are advancing a monster by adding player character class levels, decide if the class levels directly improve the monster’s existing capabilities. When adding class levels to a creature, you should give it typical ability scores appropriate for that class. Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers. If you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Creatures with NPC classes use the nonelite array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. T Associated Class Levels Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1. Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability. Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage. A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. Nonassociated Class Levels If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated. Alright, what can we gather from this? Heres what I have derived: "Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability." Alright, a dragon's a pretty fearsome combatant. We can assume that thse are associated classes for the dragons. "Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage." I'd argue that dragons have 8 skill points per level, plus in many cases "free" skills. Combine that with the fact that they tend to be smart, I'd say that these are associated classes. "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability." Alright, unlike the other two, this is actually fairly easy, with no room whatsoever for interpretation. It specifically says "the class in question". Which be definition, would make Sorcer a favored class (since they cast spells as sorcerers), but no other spellcasting classes. "Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated." Again, pretty cut and dried there. Alright, then using the core rules, the following classes are non-associated to dragons: Bard Cleric Druid Wizard Psion Wilder Adept Aristocrat Commoner Warrior (As for who the hell is advancing Dragons by Commner levels, I have no clue. It's merely included for completeness.)
runestar 05-01-06, 08:21 AM	Let's say you take a CR 16 or so dragon and give him 4 levels of Cleric. What does he get? Elite array, 4d8 hp, +3 BAB, +4 Fort, +1 Ref, +4 Will, 1st-and 2nd-level divine spells and a Turn Undead ability that can only work against undead of 8 HD or less in the best of cases. Does that make him a tougher challenge? Well, the hp, BAB, and good saves help a little, but the DC for reflex saves will be more than 1 higher for PCs that gain 4 levels, his Turn Undead is useless, and the puny 2d8+4 he can heal as a standard action is less than what any one character can deal in the same round. Therefore, it does raise his CR, but only by half the number of levels. Slight technical error there. A cr16 dragon is likely to have more than 20 dragon HD, thus any additional class lvs will incur epic progression rules. Thus, 4 lvs of cleric would increase bab and saves by only +2 each, as opposed to 4 dragon HD, which increases bab by +4 and saves by +2, among improving other attributes. ;) But otherwise, you have made your point... :D
Atirakis 05-01-06, 10:49 AM	Once again I must point out we arent talking about if 4 levels is perfectly equal to +4 CR we are trying to determine if some classes should be considered Non Associated for dragons. I agree with the earlier post on his interrpretation of the rules, however I would still argue that Cleric, Wizard and any Psionic classes are indeed associated for dragons. Have you read through the powers list? Plus being able to amp them with all the bonus power points you will get from having high scores (dragons rock for those). Wizard is another one that I will argue to the death. Is a 1st level wizard CR 1? Not really if you consider a 1st level Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin CR 1. But does adding 10 levels of Wizard to a dragon increase its CR by about 10? Yeah sure you are giving up BA and HP but if you cant make a dragon tough in a battle with 5th level Wizard Spells then your not trying. Heres an example Party enters cave, Blasted with a Maximized Fireball. Party advances slowly, blasted with a Maximized Breath Weapon. Dragon then blasts party with fireballs even if they are too close (immune to fire, replace with appropriate energy type attack for other dragons) untill his Breath Weapon has recharged. Sound scary? No? Then give him the feat from Draconomicon that allows him to be healed by his breath weapon types energy. Now not only is he dealing out 10d6 fire damage every round but he is healing 1:3 of that damage. That is why it is associated, not because it pays off for 1-3 levels but because you would be getting 10 or more levels for too cheap if they were Non Associated.
Atirakis 05-01-06, 11:02 AM	Non Associated Classes are for ones that arent "Sub Optimal" as someone stated but for ones that are nearly useless. Almost every class is "Sub Optimal" for a dragon. Its trying to decide if the class gives him a real advantage in combat and yes all of the ones I have named do. Here is MY list of Non Associated Classes for Dragons Any NPC Bard Druid and Rogue is borderline depending on how you build your dragon, sure they may not ever be able to hide, or move silently, but evasion and sneak attack are awesome abilities and yes a dragon can get the sneak attack in, there are feats that would allow them to do so plus they can always get a flanker, 2 young red dragon rogues sounds like a hefty challenge to me.
Derren S. 05-01-06, 11:50 AM	I'd argue that dragons have 8 skill points per level, plus in many cases "free" skills. Combine that with the fact that they tend to be smart, I'd say that these are associated classes. Dragons have 6 skill points per level and no free skills. So I wouldnh't say that skills and stealth are their prime strength.
runestar 05-01-06, 12:09 PM	Party enters cave, Blasted with a Maximized Fireball. Party advances slowly, blasted with a Maximized Breath Weapon. Dragon then blasts party with fireballs even if they are too close (immune to fire, replace with appropriate energy type attack for other dragons) untill his Breath Weapon has recharged. Sound scary? No? Then give him the feat from Draconomicon that allows him to be healed by his breath weapon types energy. Now not only is he dealing out 10d6 fire damage every round but he is healing 1:3 of that damage. That is why it is associated, not because it pays off for 1-3 levels but because you would be getting 10 or more levels for too cheap if they were Non Associated. I don't really think 5th lv spells are of a party's top concern at that sort of cr... ;) Not to mention it probably won't be able to overcome sr. 10d6 is really little at that point, not to mention that in that round spent casting, that is also a round the party can spend blasting the dragon. But more fun for your party since they get more xp defeating over-cr'ed encounters. :D
Count Arioch the 28th 05-01-06, 01:26 PM	I agree with the earlier post on his interrpretation of the rules, however I would still argue that Cleric, Wizard and any Psionic classes are indeed associated for dragons. :rolleyes: Let's try this again. "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability." That's what the rules say. do dragons have manifester levels in psion? Then Psion is non-associated for them. Arguing is stupid. Do dragons have caster levels in druid? then druid is nonassociated for them. Arguing is stupid. Do dragons have caster levels in cleric? Then cleric is non-associated for them. Arguing is stupid. Do dragons have caster levels in wizard? Then wizard is nonassociated for them. Arguing is stupid. The rules couldn't be clearer in this case. You might as well be arguing that you roll a D4 to determin hitting in combat instead of a D20. You are directly contradicted by the rules, please stop arguing, you are wrong.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-01-06, 01:29 PM	Dragons have 6 skill points per level and no free skills. So I wouldnh't say that skills and stealth are their prime strength. I'll concede the 6 skill points, because I am clearly wrong in this case. Dragons got free skills in 3.0, that was a legacy rule that I hadn't caught. (there's a lot of minor changes of that nature from 3E to 3.5 that I tend to miss.) Either way, I retract that statement. I would say that if rogue and ranger were non-associated for dragons, then dragon rogues and rangers are going to be fairly nasty.
Atirakis 05-01-06, 02:32 PM	:rolleyes: Let's try this again. "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability." That's what the rules say. do dragons have manifester levels in psion? Then Psion is non-associated for them. Arguing is stupid. Do dragons have caster levels in druid? then druid is nonassociated for them. Arguing is stupid. Do dragons have caster levels in cleric? Then cleric is non-associated for them. Arguing is stupid. Do dragons have caster levels in wizard? Then wizard is nonassociated for them. Arguing is stupid. The rules couldn't be clearer in this case. You might as well be arguing that you roll a D4 to determin hitting in combat instead of a D20. You are directly contradicted by the rules, please stop arguing, you are wrong. I told you I agree with your interpretation of the rules. That doesnt mean that I have to agree with those rules and or stop argueing my point. The RAW is not the LAW. This game started before I was born and I have played it through 3 and a half editions. In all of those editions it has been made perfectly clear that the game is presented as a foundation to work from and that you can and SHOULD change anything that you feel is necessary in order to make the game fun for you and your players. Are you right as far as RAW is concerned? Yes absolutely. Does that mean that I wont present MY opinion on them? Nope. Oh and Runestar why must you always assume that we are talking about adding 10 levels of wizard/psion/whatever to an already epic or near epic dragon? You can make a very challenging CR 15 encounter by making a Young Black Dragon Cleric 10 or Wizard 10. Of course an Ancient Red Dragon wont find much use for lower level spells but give him access to higher level spells plus all the time in the world to copy spells into his spellbook and learn them, something you cant get from Sorcerer levels (they only get so many known per level). That is why Wizard should be associated. Same with all my other examples, it may not agree with the RAw but blindly pointing out the RAW seems far more stupid than stating reasons why something should be a certain way.
d_nychus 05-01-06, 03:05 PM	The problem is that a young black dragon with 10 levels of wizard or cleric is NOT going to be a CR 15. Even though that particular example is clearly one of the times nonassociated classes breaks down, the straight +1 CR for class level does not work either. By the book, it should be a CR 10, which clearly does not work out. Honestly, it's more like a CR 12 or so. Remember, CR is not found by a clear-cut formula. It can be estimated by such, but a true CR test is how effective it is against an appropriate group of adventurers. And you are still wrong about wizard, or any other spellcasting class aside from sorcerer, being an associated class. If you add a wizard level to a dragon, is it really going to add much? At low HD, maybe, but at high HD, it's not going to matter much at all. At low levels, which is a very small aspect of dragons, you may have an argument for it being associated. At high levels, adding a level of wizard is close to meaningless. It's like putting a pellet gun on a tank. Here, try this for a realistic approach. When dragons have low HD, a few levels of wizard or other spellcasting classes can be considered associated. At some point, however, probably just after 10 HD (or about when they start getting their sorcerer caster levels), spellcasting classes aside from sorcerer really do not have that huge of a impact, and become nonassociated. Is that better?
Atirakis 05-01-06, 03:14 PM	See you get what I am saying. CR is and always will be an ad hoc calculation. Truth be told I figure out my NPCs CR and then adjust after I see how the battle went (no I dont screw or reward my players based on good or bad dice rolls, but I see how their powers, ect played out) I mean are you going to tell me that a 20 HD Gold Dragon benefits greatly from a few levels in Barbarian? Yet thats associated. My point is and was do the math yourself, does this make my dragon (other creature) significantly tougher or not so significantly tougher? Good job on the dragon btw I came up with CR 12 myself after statting it up.
Kothardarastrix 05-03-06, 05:30 AM	the feat from Draconomicon that allows him to be healed by his breath weapon types energy. Exactly, which feat would that be?