Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BelRex 04-25-05, 04:53 PM	I'm sure that this has probably come up before, but without search I cannot be sure. Has anyone considered allowing dragons to cast spells in the same way that Phaerimm(From Faerun..specifically Lost Empires of Faerun..monster section) do? That is..they cast them exactly as they would use spell-like abilities? If so..do you really think that this would create too much of an imbalance..considering that when you usually encounter a dragon that his spell casting is usually below par when put up against other spellcasters it battles. Also, on a side note..I have probably overlooked this info in the Draconomican..but how many hours of sleep does a dragon require?? I know they require 8hours of 'peace of mind' for their spellcasting. If this info has already been discussed..please point out the thread. Thanks
obrysii 04-25-05, 07:42 PM	Well. Dragons cast spells like sorceror's do. As for their sleep...I'd think eight hours is about right. They probably would not suffer as detrimentally as humans do due to sleep depravation, though.
BelRex 04-25-05, 09:28 PM	Yes, I'm aware that dragons cast as sorcerers :P I was proposing a slight change..so that they would cast spells as Phaeriumm. To me..it would show a closer connection with magic than they currently have..but as I said..that's just me. I was looking to get some opinions on how anyone would think that kind of change would affect them overall.
Borris 04-25-05, 10:24 PM	Dragons already have spell-like abilities. In fact, they are so close to magic that they have spellcasting, spell-like abilities, AND supernatural abilities. All in one neat scaly package.
BelRex 04-25-05, 11:52 PM	Yes, I know they already have the above mentioned abilities. I'm trying to figure out how much more powerful..if any..changing their spellcasting ability would affect them. I guess I could use a PrC to do this..something like..Dragon Mystic..where they explore more deeply their connections with magic. Perhaps requiring Eschew Materials and so may ranks in knowledge arcana. But that's beside the point of my original post. I was drawn to this because of the similarities of Phaerimm to dragons..their magic by age, host of special abilities..etc.
guardiandashi 04-26-05, 02:24 PM	I am not sure what Phaerimm are, but the older rules (second edition) had dragons casting spells without needing material componants, or needing to make gestures (usually) and the vocal componants were minimized. essentually in second edition dragons ALL had the equivalant of stilled, and no-material componants and almost (silent spell) always applied for no cost in levels
Derren S. 04-26-05, 02:29 PM	In 3.5 Dragons don't need material components, even if they are expensive, but they do need to make V and S components.
BelRex 04-26-05, 02:37 PM	Ah..I never played 2nd Edition, but I guess that's what I'm reaching for. The Phaerimm cast all their spells as spell-like ablities, but they gain spells known/per day as sorcerers. I've just been reading up on dragons lately..and i never got the impression that they had to do nearly as much as normal casters to use their spells. And that is what I'm looking for..a way showing that..and the Phaerimm way of casting is the best shot. Derren S. As far as I can tell, dragons in 3.5 all cast exactly as sorcerers..thus requiring components to cast. They even have a feat for dragons, in the Draconomicon called Embedded Focus..it lets them embed expensive spell components in their scales. And dragons don't have Eschew Material Components as a bonus feat. It's for this exact reason that I was looking for an alternative way for them to cast.
Derren S. 04-26-05, 02:41 PM	Dragons still need focus, but no material components (Draconomicon page 24) In fact, that extends to all creatures with innate spellcasting (apparently it also seay so in the MM but I haven't found it so far in there) That makes dragon excellent friends to have (True Ressurection for free) and they can abuse fabricate like hell.
BelRex 04-26-05, 02:47 PM	I completely overlooked that sidebar, thanks for pointing that out. But what do you think of allowing them to cast as I proposed?
Borris 04-26-05, 03:09 PM	With the current rules, grappling prevents a dragon from casting spells with somatic components and pinning prevents him to cast spells with verbal components. Of course, any dragon with a decent spellcaster level will have tremendous Str and size bonuses on grapple checks, but the option still exists.
VanRiper 04-26-05, 03:48 PM	One thing against making the dragons spells be spell-like abilities = the quicken spell-like ability feat. It would make dragons tougher when they can quicken any spell they have and take a full attack.
BelRex 04-26-05, 03:59 PM	That may be true, but you can only quicken spells up to a certain level..according to your caster level. Plus you can only do it 3/day. Most dragons at great wyrm stage, are caster level 19*13 for white*..which is max spell level 5 to be quickened. *Using the charts in SS*. Plus to take the feat, a dragon would have to be mature adult *gold* or ancient *white* to take it. And then he could only quicken 0 level spells. Also, as suggested..a dragon could just learn a quickened version of a spell.