Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Etharion 04-12-07, 10:16 PM	Hy..i have a question about Dragons and them swallowing opponents whole. I play by the 3. edition rules and books, so the dragons i talk about are from the Monster Manual 3. edition. My question is such, because i can nowhere find anything on Dragons swallowing their opponents whole, like a purple worm or similar large creatures. So..lets say a Gargantuan or Collosal Dragon is fighting some medium opponents. Why couldnt he just swallow him? No fuss no muss.. The fires (or applyiable energy type) inside it can easily speed up the digesting and crushing damage, so why not make short work of it? Its just odd that it dosent mention anywhere that a Dragon can swallow a opponent.. So..have there been some changes in the newer MM on this, and has Swallowing whole been introduced, or is it still absent? If so..why is it absent?? Why couldnt a Dragon swallow its medium or smaller sized opponent??
Derren S. 04-13-07, 03:31 AM	So..have there been some changes in the newer MM on this, and has Swallowing whole been introduced, or is it still absent? If so..why is it absent?? Why couldnt a Dragon swallow its medium or smaller sized opponent?? Dragons do not have the swallow whole ability. To be able to swallow whole more is neccessary than a big stomach. The stomach and digestive track also has to be armored enough to withstand live prey who fights for its live in panick. The stomach of a dragon is not made for this and thus dragons normally eat dead prey as otherwise they would be seriously hurt.
Etharion 04-13-07, 08:37 AM	Aww... :( I always thought that a Collosal dragon could swallow opponents without a problem.. That's not fair..
Derren S. 04-13-07, 08:43 AM	Considering that swallowing is most of the time a rather bad option not being able to do it is not a big disadvantage
Wererhino 04-13-07, 03:29 PM	I would even dare say that a dragon wouldn't wish to swallow an oppent whole. Think of the possible magic items to add to its ever growing horde.
Rickiel 04-13-07, 05:20 PM	I agree with Wererhino. Greed is a deciding factor in why Dragons don't have the Swallow Whole ability. Mommy Dragon: Perachinoslochacs! Don't swallow your food whole like that! It might have a few coppers in its pocket!
Slagger the Chuul 04-13-07, 07:47 PM	If you really wanted to do it, you could probably allow it as a grapple option against an opponent at least four size categories smaller than the creature. For fun, I've whacked together a quick and relatively simple variant for swallowing opponents whole using the basics of the swallow whole ability. VARIANT: Swallow Whole in a Grapple Using this variant, a grappling creature can attempt to swallow its opponent whole with a successful grapple check. To successfully swallow whole, the creature must be at least four size categories larger than its opponent. Each round, on the swallowing creature's turn, the opponent takes damage equal to the swallowing creature's unarmed strike, plus acid damage as described on the table, below. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted on the table, below), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armour Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is equal to 10 + ½ its natural armour bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be swallowed again. Size Acid Damage HP Medium 2 5 Large 3 10 Huge 4 15 Gargantuan 6 20 Colossal 8 25
Torvald 04-16-07, 11:47 PM	Hail Slagger, Good variant. I made a post a couple days ago but it went directly into dormant mode. Do you know of any rules where by the swallowed opponent chooses to stay inside the gullet and fight but the monster gets a chance to puke him up? Torvald
SpoonyBard 04-17-07, 12:10 AM	Hey, Slagger, does that mean ANY creature can take Gape of the Serpent? XD
liviajulia 04-18-07, 04:58 PM	Dragons have a feat available in the Draconomicon called Snatch and Swallow. It allows them to swallow an opponent 3 sizes less or smaller whole after using the Snatch feat. The feat description gives swallow (crushing damage) and energy damage - although it does not give the appropriate damage neccessary to cut one's way out of a dragon. Do you know of any rules where by the swallowed opponent chooses to stay inside the gullet and fight but the monster gets a chance to puke him up? the feat description also says that a swallowed creature may try to crawl out by breaking the grapple, so one could argue that since you have to break the grapple to crawl back out, the dragon would just have to release the grapple, then re-grapple and spit you out (activating muscular action in the opposite direction - like when you know you've swallowed a bad clam and you make yourself heave it up). but why would you stay inside and fight when you are taking damage from both the swallow and the energy damage every round (6d6/round total for a gargantuan old red dragon), without significant benefit? its AC may be 10 points lower, but still! all that said, does the dragon get it's str bonus to damage on it's bludgeoning damage from swallowing? the purple worm and rhemoraz do, but there is no specific mention of this in the description of the snatch and swallow feat. i would assume yes? which would then raise the damage for the swallow in question above to 6d6+12/round for an old red dragon. admittedly, it is cool - i'll grant you that - "just as it is about to deliver the deathblow to poor Fithpot the Crafty, the great beast bellows mightily and crashes to the ground, dead as Szass Tam. deader even. suddenly, a sickening rending sound announces the return of Sundog the Barbarian as he strides out of the dragon's thoat with his greataxe, covered in ichor, through a portal of his own making..." heehee! but i wouldn't say that greed would be a factor - granted most dragons can eat just about anything, but magic items (the focus of most would-be dragonslayer's lives) should survive (?). I would say that their mouths are not the right shape or size (relative) for it - which is why the Snatch and Swallow feat puts a size cap on the edible creature that is different from the standard Swallow Whole ability.
DungeonMaster 04-19-07, 12:30 AM	Keep in mind a collosal dragon can use snatch to hold prey in its mouth and do double damage with the bite. Say a collosal red dragon. Just with power-attack and strength it's 8d8+80+34 = ~150 damage. Add in a few low-level spells, divine favor, greater magic fang, bull's strength and you're at 176 damage. Throw in poweful spells like righteous might and you'll easily breach 200 damage on a single bite. Not many things survive 150 damage, let alone 200 in the game. So the image of the dragon snaping something in its jaws, then transfering it down its gullet is not unreasonable.
Torvald 04-24-07, 03:34 PM	the feat description also says that a swallowed creature may try to crawl out by breaking the grapple, so one could argue that since you have to break the grapple to crawl back out, the dragon would just have to release the grapple, then re-grapple and spit you out (activating muscular action in the opposite direction - like when you know you've swallowed a bad clam and you make yourself heave it up). but why would you stay inside and fight when you are taking damage from both the swallow and the energy damage every round (6d6/round total for a gargantuan old red dragon), without significant benefit? its AC may be 10 points lower, but still! This particular case was a cheesed out monk inside a hive mother beholderkin with the swallow whole ability. With his saint template, he (the monk) was immune to acid and figured he could punch the thing unconscious from the inside before it could chew him up. I wanted to be able to spit him out but had not prepared for someone wanting to stay inside where the antimagic cone couldn't affect him. So, is there a puke-up opposed grapple roll to get a pesky PC out of a poor hungry orb of death or what? Any ideas or suggestions? Torvald
liviajulia 04-24-07, 05:56 PM	So, is there a puke-up opposed grapple roll to get a pesky PC out of a poor hungry orb of death or what? Any ideas or suggestions? well, since beholderkin don't normally have fingers that they can shove down their throats bulemia-style, i would say that a creature being injured has the ability to induce vomiting as a full-round action and puke up the character at the beginning of next round, possibly leaving the vomiting creature dazed or fatigued - retroperistalsis is a very powerful muscle action. or you could just house-rule it as another opposed grapple, identical to the original, but possibly with a bonus for the beholder, since it would be grasping the character from all sides anyway - but if that monk can withstand the strength of a beholdermum's spasming esophagus because he has some crazy grapple check, then i think she may be SOL. Some kind of assistance to create a more forceful vomit might help (like, i don't know, if she can get ahold of syrup of ipecac, or have a nausea spell cast on her), but you might want to ask yourself just how much breathable air is actually in the stomach of such a creature. again, it would be a house rule but, but if the character can't hold their breath for the entire time they are in there, they're likely to suffocate. however, this raises another question - can a monk or character with bludgeoning weapons actually get enough swing inside an esophagus or stomach to do serious damage? the rules state that a small or smaller slashing or piercing weapon would be required to cut one's way out, acknowledging that you wouldn't be able to move your broadsword around in tight quarters. sooooo, given that you have to get some steam up to hit, even if you're Beatrice Kiddo, i'm not sure that it would be possible for your monk to do his worst from inside - think of him as being trapped inside a gigantic acidic condom held tightly by a bigby's grasping hand - which is the point of the whole *escape to the mouth by making an opposed grapple check* rule - you can climb your way out, but you can't really fight in there. i think the moral of the story here is: don't eat things that are immune to acid - you're only going to have to pass them whole later on down the line...:behold:
Torvald 04-25-07, 11:12 AM	well, since beholderkin don't normally have fingers that they can shove down their throats bulemia-style, i would say that a creature being injured has the ability to induce vomiting as a full-round action and puke up the character at the beginning of next round, possibly leaving the vomiting creature dazed or fatigued - retroperistalsis is a very powerful muscle action. <snip> sooooo, given that you have to get some steam up to hit, even if you're Beatrice Kiddo, i'm not sure that it would be possible for your monk to do his worst from inside - think of him as being trapped inside a gigantic acidic condom held tightly by a bigby's grasping hand - which is the point of the whole *escape to the mouth by making an opposed grapple check* rule - you can climb your way out, but you can't really fight in there. Ya know, I was thinking harder than I had to. THe full round volunteary action works for me. The monk, as I said, was ubercheesy with all the high level abilities - breathing isn't necessary, divine smite, crap like that. I ruled that in order to hit, he had to match the exterior AC rather than the AC20 of the gullet. He still managed to knock her out. Next time, the hive will be on to him though, so no more of that will happen. Torvald