Dragons and their attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons and their attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
goku7835
05-04-05, 07:03 PM I am a bit confused on how dragons use their full attack action . . .

In the MM, it shows a chart with a single attack value for the attack. For the damage, it shows a bite attack damage. Now my question is, what are the other attacks accuracy/damage?

For the attack bonus, I am the most confused. If the dragon uses a full attack action and gets 4 attacks, does each attack get the bonus listed as "Attack" under the 'abilities by age catagory' chart? Or does each attack get a separate penalty?

I read the chart that comes before the dragon specifics that show how many attacks the dragon recieves depending on his size. I have one question here: when the chart says "2 wings" or "2 etc.", do you roll for each wing, or is the damage given for both wings combined . . . like using both wings is a single attack?

Just a few more questions . . . a breath attack takes a full-attack action to perform, or does it take a standard action? Also, does a dragon have to forgo using any other bite/claw/etc attacks to use his breath weapon? If a dragon with a "line" breath weapon attacks (such as a blue dragon), will it strike the first person it hits and stop, or will it keep going and hit everyone in the path of it? Speaking of which, if the person dodging the attack has metal armor, does the electricity hurt them any more (same with natural armor vs. a fire breath weapon)?

Thanks a lot for clearing up the confusion guys! I really appreciate it.

;)
allenthailand
05-04-05, 07:38 PM If the whole secondary attacks confuses you, give the dragon the Multiattack and Improved Multiattack feats, which make all attacks happen at the listed attack bonus.

Basically, it's like this: the bite is the primary attack, so it works on the listed attack bonus. Everything else, claws, wings, tails... is a secondary attack, with a -5 to the attack bonus.

A breath weapon is a stardard action that does not provoke AoO. Lines keep going after causing damage, just as a lightning bolt would. Keep in mind that a line can go on the line between two squares, so a 60' line could affect 24 squares total.

Metal armor has no effect on saves vs electrical breath weapons, per the RAW.

The breath weapon replaces the attacks, as it is a standard action, so when a dragon breathes it can't make an attack.
LukiLoki
05-04-05, 07:49 PM Second the Mutiattack. Those are features that should pretty much come standard with your higher end dragon models.

Answering a couple of questions not covered by allen above(edit: until that sneaky bastard edited his post :D : the breath weapon is an area of effect, so the line continues past the first target hit. Breath is a standard action, but IIRC, they can combine it for free with a bite, but only to damage the target bitten. But I might be wrong on that...
allenthailand
05-04-05, 07:56 PM Didn't mean to be sneaky there, Luki... I just couldn't read the post without going back and forth.

Anyway, you can't combine the breath weapon with a bite. They are both standard actions, and you can only do one of those in a round, barring silly polymorph cheese.

It might be an interesting houserule to do that, becasue I was noticing that Dragons can use the snatch feat with their bite attack, and I wondered if someone currently being grappled in the dragon's mouth (!) would even get a saving throw...
LukiLoki
05-04-05, 08:02 PM Yeah, that's what I was thinking of: I think if it's got you in its mouth, and breathes, then you get BW damage, no save. Is that it? Or do I just want dragons to be able to do something like that so much that I'm going delusional. Who can say?
Insane Pixie
05-04-05, 08:07 PM Yeah, that's what I was thinking of: I think if it's got you in its mouth, and breathes, then you get BW damage, no save. Is that it? Or do I just want dragons to be able to do something like that so much that I'm going delusional. Who can say?

Hmm...it would seem like no save, and possibly max damage...
Colmarr
05-04-05, 10:40 PM I don't have my MM at work, so I don't have access to the snatch feat, so forgive me if that feat counterracts what I'm about to say.

Under the grapple rules, a grappling dragon only has a specific list of actions it can take. Use special ability or use breath weapon is not one of them.

None of the dragons, IIRC, have Improved Grab, so they cannot take the -20 to avoid counting as grappled. Once they're grappled, they can only take listed grapple actions, so no breath weapon.
Colmarr
05-04-05, 10:43 PM Found this in the SRD (I hate the way it's divided up!):

SNATCH [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.

The feat itself answers the question. If the dragon has Snatch, no saving throw is allowed for the creature in the Dragon's mouth. There is no increased damage though.

If the dragon doesn't have snatch (eg. if it is Large size or smaller), my earlier post applies.
vegeta7835
05-05-05, 01:03 PM Thanks for all the input guys, it really cleared things up for me. I just have that one question that I need answered: when the attack chart says "2 wings", do both wings get an attack (like 2 claws) or is the attack's damage listed as both wings doing that damage. If they are separate attacks, I know that each attack gets a continuous -5 modifier as the attacks go, but when it is an attack block that has 2 claws or 2 wings, do they get the same modifier to hit? Or would 1 claw get -5 while the other gets -10 and so on?
Ovistavin
05-05-05, 07:27 PM Thanks for all the input guys, it really cleared things up for me. I just have that one question that I need answered: when the attack chart says "2 wings", do both wings get an attack (like 2 claws) or is the attack's damage listed as both wings doing that damage. If they are separate attacks, I know that each attack gets a continuous -5 modifier as the attacks go, but when it is an attack block that has 2 claws or 2 wings, do they get the same modifier to hit? Or would 1 claw get -5 while the other gets -10 and so on?

Each wing is a seperate attack. The claw, wing and tail attacks would have the same attack bonus.
Colmarr
05-05-05, 09:44 PM Agreed.

The creatures primary attack form (for dragons it is bite) is at the creature's full bonus.

All other attack forms (regardless of how many forms or how many attacks in each form) is at -5 (or -2 if the creature has Multiattack).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
goku7835 05-04-05, 07:03 PM	I am a bit confused on how dragons use their full attack action . . . In the MM, it shows a chart with a single attack value for the attack. For the damage, it shows a bite attack damage. Now my question is, what are the other attacks accuracy/damage? For the attack bonus, I am the most confused. If the dragon uses a full attack action and gets 4 attacks, does each attack get the bonus listed as "Attack" under the 'abilities by age catagory' chart? Or does each attack get a separate penalty? I read the chart that comes before the dragon specifics that show how many attacks the dragon recieves depending on his size. I have one question here: when the chart says "2 wings" or "2 etc.", do you roll for each wing, or is the damage given for both wings combined . . . like using both wings is a single attack? Just a few more questions . . . a breath attack takes a full-attack action to perform, or does it take a standard action? Also, does a dragon have to forgo using any other bite/claw/etc attacks to use his breath weapon? If a dragon with a "line" breath weapon attacks (such as a blue dragon), will it strike the first person it hits and stop, or will it keep going and hit everyone in the path of it? Speaking of which, if the person dodging the attack has metal armor, does the electricity hurt them any more (same with natural armor vs. a fire breath weapon)? Thanks a lot for clearing up the confusion guys! I really appreciate it. ;)
allenthailand 05-04-05, 07:38 PM	If the whole secondary attacks confuses you, give the dragon the Multiattack and Improved Multiattack feats, which make all attacks happen at the listed attack bonus. Basically, it's like this: the bite is the primary attack, so it works on the listed attack bonus. Everything else, claws, wings, tails... is a secondary attack, with a -5 to the attack bonus. A breath weapon is a stardard action that does not provoke AoO. Lines keep going after causing damage, just as a lightning bolt would. Keep in mind that a line can go on the line between two squares, so a 60' line could affect 24 squares total. Metal armor has no effect on saves vs electrical breath weapons, per the RAW. The breath weapon replaces the attacks, as it is a standard action, so when a dragon breathes it can't make an attack.
LukiLoki 05-04-05, 07:49 PM	Second the Mutiattack. Those are features that should pretty much come standard with your higher end dragon models. Answering a couple of questions not covered by allen above(edit: until that sneaky bastard edited his post :D : the breath weapon is an area of effect, so the line continues past the first target hit. Breath is a standard action, but IIRC, they can combine it for free with a bite, but only to damage the target bitten. But I might be wrong on that...
allenthailand 05-04-05, 07:56 PM	Didn't mean to be sneaky there, Luki... I just couldn't read the post without going back and forth. Anyway, you can't combine the breath weapon with a bite. They are both standard actions, and you can only do one of those in a round, barring silly polymorph cheese. It might be an interesting houserule to do that, becasue I was noticing that Dragons can use the snatch feat with their bite attack, and I wondered if someone currently being grappled in the dragon's mouth (!) would even get a saving throw...
LukiLoki 05-04-05, 08:02 PM	Yeah, that's what I was thinking of: I think if it's got you in its mouth, and breathes, then you get BW damage, no save. Is that it? Or do I just want dragons to be able to do something like that so much that I'm going delusional. Who can say?
Insane Pixie 05-04-05, 08:07 PM	Yeah, that's what I was thinking of: I think if it's got you in its mouth, and breathes, then you get BW damage, no save. Is that it? Or do I just want dragons to be able to do something like that so much that I'm going delusional. Who can say? Hmm...it would seem like no save, and possibly max damage...
Colmarr 05-04-05, 10:40 PM	I don't have my MM at work, so I don't have access to the snatch feat, so forgive me if that feat counterracts what I'm about to say. Under the grapple rules, a grappling dragon only has a specific list of actions it can take. Use special ability or use breath weapon is not one of them. None of the dragons, IIRC, have Improved Grab, so they cannot take the -20 to avoid counting as grappled. Once they're grappled, they can only take listed grapple actions, so no breath weapon.
Colmarr 05-04-05, 10:43 PM	Found this in the SRD (I hate the way it's divided up!): SNATCH [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger. Benefits: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one. The feat itself answers the question. If the dragon has Snatch, no saving throw is allowed for the creature in the Dragon's mouth. There is no increased damage though. If the dragon doesn't have snatch (eg. if it is Large size or smaller), my earlier post applies.
vegeta7835 05-05-05, 01:03 PM	Thanks for all the input guys, it really cleared things up for me. I just have that one question that I need answered: when the attack chart says "2 wings", do both wings get an attack (like 2 claws) or is the attack's damage listed as both wings doing that damage. If they are separate attacks, I know that each attack gets a continuous -5 modifier as the attacks go, but when it is an attack block that has 2 claws or 2 wings, do they get the same modifier to hit? Or would 1 claw get -5 while the other gets -10 and so on?
Ovistavin 05-05-05, 07:27 PM	Thanks for all the input guys, it really cleared things up for me. I just have that one question that I need answered: when the attack chart says "2 wings", do both wings get an attack (like 2 claws) or is the attack's damage listed as both wings doing that damage. If they are separate attacks, I know that each attack gets a continuous -5 modifier as the attacks go, but when it is an attack block that has 2 claws or 2 wings, do they get the same modifier to hit? Or would 1 claw get -5 while the other gets -10 and so on? Each wing is a seperate attack. The claw, wing and tail attacks would have the same attack bonus.
Colmarr 05-05-05, 09:44 PM	Agreed. The creatures primary attack form (for dragons it is bite) is at the creature's full bonus. All other attack forms (regardless of how many forms or how many attacks in each form) is at -5 (or -2 if the creature has Multiattack).