Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shadow mage 02-07-04, 06:23 PM	I've a quesion regarding the size of dragons. I'm designing a landscape for an island pretty much dominated by dragons, and I became curious about their sizes at the different categories (medium-sized, large, huge, gargantuan, and colossal). It occured to me that while the space/reach were given, the actual sizes weren't. For example: A dragon at colossal size is assumed (page 149 in PHB) to be 30 feet (or more) long. But I'm having a hard time believing that a creature of thirty feet in length can be that intimidating. C'mon, that's what, two F-150s in length? No, I scratched that. I'm at loss to figure out the length and wingspan of these awesome creatures at the various age/size categories, so would anyone like to help?
Charles Phipps 02-07-04, 07:22 PM	Essentially realize that the largest thing your character has probably seen is a castle, now see a moving castle. :-)
shadow mage 02-07-04, 07:47 PM	-scratches head, clearing throat- Gee, thanks. Anyway, Here's a guess of mine. It says they range from several feet (imagine 3-6) in length as a wyrmling and more than one hundred feet as a great wyrm. When put in perspective, one hundred feet is a pretty good sized dragon, considering the length of the tail and head/neck area. Overall, that's fine (a little bigger than the PHB's 30 feet, eh? ):smirk: However, that's only the length. Now we'd move on to the critter's wingspan, which is at least twice its length. That's at least a two hundred foot wingspan (wow, um, yeah), probably closer to 250-300 feet. Essentially a football field in length. And the wing's width is also pretty impressive, considering the sail-like wing membrane. We're looking at a monsterous creature here, and flying for this bad boy is going to be interesting unless it's in open skies a mile or so up.
Charles Phipps 02-07-04, 09:36 PM	sorry, I expected more people to respond to your thread and was making a flippant response. [For example: A dragon at colossal size is assumed (page 149 in PHB) to be 30 feet (or more) long. But I'm having a hard time believing that a creature of thirty feet in length can be that intimidating. C'mon, that's what, two F-150s in length? No, I scratched that. I'm at loss to figure out the length and wingspan of these awesome creatures at the various age/size categories, so would anyone like to help?] My response is to indicate that 30 feet in height, i.e. the size of many castles wall heights is actually quite large. Effectively a dragon on his hind legs is as size as the creature in Helm's deep. In general if you want to know my response, I put dragon wingspan as varying tremendously amongst the races of dragon (since dragons in my game use a form of telekenesis to travel) Dragons shouldn't be awesomely huge but in fact in my opinion actually larger than humans enough that they are somewhat able to meet eye-sight and thus invoke the fear a tall human does. I actually only put wingspan as long as half the wyrm in question onboth sides. Hence a dragon whose thirty feet has 30 foot long wingspan. Yours is entirely possible as well of course. Then again sometimes I just THROW OUT the recommended sizes. Dark Star I said was a "Great Old Wyrm" but I said that he was three football field (900 feet in size) in length and filled an entire valley with breath that exploded more or less like a bomb going off that could destroy castles in single blasts THAT put the fear of Tiamat in them
The_Fan 02-07-04, 10:50 PM	Also, remember the 30 ft space is merely the area they completely control in combat. Their massive reach makes up much of their body length as well, as when they get into combat they whip around their tail, neck, and wings to keep opponents at bay (that's where they make their attacks of opportunity). The distribution of tail, neck, and body length vary from type to type. Overall length is pretty standard amoung the size categories, though, but keep in mind all these stats vary wildly from dragon to dragon and species to species: T: 4 ft S: 8 ft M: 16 ft L: 31 ft H: 55 ft G: 85 ft C: 120 ft Compare that with their space and reach: T: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft (5 ft bite) S: 5 ft/5 ft M: 5 ft/5 ft L: 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft bite) H: 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft bite) G: 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft bite) C: 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft bite) Oh, and for the record, body width (measured across shoulders) and height (measured to the shoulder) for the various size categories: T: 1 ft, 1 ft S: 2 ft, 2 ft M: 3 ft, 4 ft L: 5 ft, 7 ft H: 8 ft, 12 ft G: 10 ft, 16 ft C: 15 ft, 22 ft So, it's clear that the average dragon is several times as long as it's "space" would indicate, often out to the absolute maximum of it's reach. It's also relatively narrow and not actually all that tall, although when rearing up they can reach terrifying heights.
Insanity 02-07-04, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by shadow mage For example: A dragon at colossal size is assumed (page 149 in PHB) to be 30 feet (or more) long. But I'm having a hard time believing that a creature of thirty feet in length can be that intimidating. I personally would a creature 2-3 times the size of an elephant, capable of power flight and setting small villages to flames quite intimidating. Wingspans for large dragons, Medium or larger would be quite large. A Medium dragon weighing in at about 500 lbs would have a wingspan of almost 70 ft.
shadow mage 02-07-04, 11:13 PM	-nods- Well, I've come up with a few more numbers to toss out here. I just drew up a dragon from above using the same model presented by the picture in Draconomicon of the white dragon's silhouette (sp?). That pretty much means the dragons wingspan, tip to tip, is about 2.2 (ish?) times its overall length. -checks paper- Ok, this guys a little less than 80 feet long and has a wingspan of 155 feet. I guess that'd be considered gargantuan size. Anyway, these are just my doings for a great wyrm. The_Fan's numbers seem to be in the same ballpark as mine, so this is good. Again, to put it into perspective, a Ford F-150 Crew Cab is roughly 19 feet in length (-coughs- My dad and his truck. inseperable.). When I said that 30 feet wasn't big or intimidatin, consider that its wingspan is probably close to 57 feet and most of the length of it is tail and neck. I mean, consider the colossal sized Tarasque. 50 feet tall is a big number there, and it's even longer full extended. The guy's bigger than a lot of the "oldest" dragons, without much neck or tail.
Kayli 02-16-04, 11:24 PM	All Mature Adult Dragons are at least Huge in size. This means that they weigh 10 tons, if it stamps on the ground you will feal it. If it steps on you, You Will Feel it. Most Huge Dragons will be broader than you are tall and more than twice as long as you are tall (body only not counting neck or tail). They will stand almost 3 times your hieght from the sholders down. His Wing Span is almost half the Length of a football field. How Can you not be intimidated. He Can Run 80 ft per round and fly at least 200' per round, so you can't run away from him. He has Damage Reduction, and Spell Resistance, and spells that he can cast at you. He has a Breath weapon at his disposal, and with the right feats he can swallow you whole in one bite. How can you not be intimidated by him? He is Bigger than any midevil house, and as big as some castles. And he consumes 10,000 lbs of food every day (that means you could barely even be considered an apatizer). How can you not be intimidated? As for the Tarrasque, Most Ancient and older Dragons would be a match for him, and they out number him. One thing to keep in mind when creating your island. Dragons need lots and lots a space. Minamum tarritory one dragon will claim as his sole domain is approx 45,000 sq miles. Max Domain claimed by one Dragon For his Personal Fiefdom aprox 200,000 sq miles.
shadow mage 02-17-04, 08:21 PM	I must thank you for your input, because it certainly puts things into perspective. Yes, I can see how that would be intimidating at huge size. Where the weight comes from I'm unsure of, considering they must still be relatively lightweight for their size (otherwise you'd be looking for wings twice the size and four time the muscle to move something ten tons), but that's something easily dealt with, as is the pounds of food consumed per day. Remember that dragons don't feed every day, usually once every couple days (or however long, depending on the individual dragon's metabolism). Now we have somewhere to start, a basic size for Huge mature adult dragon. Look for something with a wingspan of 150 feet, a body length of around 12-14 feet long, a height of roughly 18 feet (at the shoulder I'll assume, imagining proper posture), possibly 6 feet across at the shoulder (not including wings and muscles associated with the wings), and a probable realistic weight of 4 tons. Now all we need is possible sizes for wyrmlings and then for ancient wyrms, and from there you've the guidline for dragonkind in general (of course individual dragons will vary). I'll post again later once I've time to do some number crunching myself.
Kayli 02-18-04, 10:36 PM	Dragon Weights are provided in Draconomicon, they are T: 5 S: 40 M: 320 L: 2,500 H: 20,000 G: 160,000 C: 1,280,000 * all weights given in lb's, and aplies to all dragons regardless of type This can very for any given dragon by as much as 25% Also Dragons eat 1/2 their weight every day, if possible. :D In most cases Dragon wingspans are about equal to or a little longer then the dragon is from nose to tail tip. This does very from Dragon to Dragon, I believe that the Red has the Longest Wings of all the Dragons Dragons Have Eight Major Muscle Groups Devoted to Controlling the Dragons Wings and Powering it in Flight. These muscle groups take up almost the entire Chest and flank of the Dragon running from the base of his kneck all the way to the bottom of his ribs. So His Fight Muscles are plenty Big. 4 tons for a Huge Dragon is too little, even if he is as thin as rails (for a Dragon), Unless he is a bone Dragon?. Remember his Scales are not like those of a snake or most other lizards. They are Thick (sometimes inches thick) and heavy. A single scale is like a large Steel shield (or even Iron) then multiply this by the meny hundreds that cover the Dragons body. This is why he is so much heavier then his mere size would normally indicate. Also, My Car, which you might, at best, call large, is 2 tons. The Dragon is quite a bit larger then a buick LeSaber I SHould Hope. And at 10 tons he is still lighter then an M1A1 Abrams MBT
scaryfroman 02-19-04, 01:30 PM	Originally posted by Charles Phipps Effectively a dragon on his hind legs is as size as the creature in Helm's deep. i apoligize for being a LotR stickler, but i assume you mean the Balrog in the Mines of moria, or else i really have to reread the two towers...
shadow mage 02-21-04, 02:26 PM	-grumbles- I seriously need Draconomicon... Well, if the weights are given there, then you would have to remove the assumtion that a dragon's wingspan is only a little bigger than it's total length, otherwise the muscles would have to be the size of a pair of houses side-by-side in order to power the dragon's flight. Using everything that I've found regarding flying creatures and their effective length in comparion to their wingspan, most creatures have a wingspan of nearly twice as long as their total length (with a few notable exceptions, the hummingbord and some falcons included). Originally posted by Kayli This can very for any given dragon by as much as 25% Also Dragons eat 1/2 their weight every day, if possible. :D I'll assume once again that these are facts provided by Draconimicon? Otherwise I'd have to dispute them as I am now, seeing as how in every book I've read dragons older than juvenile only seem to eat once every couple days, but often the longer they weight the more the gorge themselves. As a D&D example, the book Cormyr: A Novel by Edd Greenwood and Jeff Grubb, the great purple dragon only ate once a month at the most, and the one incident that its hunt is shown it eats...four, five cattle? I believe that's far less than the tons suggested. The weight aside (This can be worked around) we have the lengths, heights, widths, and wingspans now to worry about....
Hrothgar the Dwarf 02-21-04, 03:14 PM	The weight aside (This can be worked around) we have the lengths, heights, widths, and wingspans now to worry about.... All the lengths, heights, widths and wingspans are in the Draconomicon .. Chapter 1
shadow mage 02-21-04, 10:35 PM	Grrr, I REALLY need this book. Does Draconomicon really have all of this? Wow...
Hrothgar the Dwarf 02-22-04, 09:54 AM	Yes, all of this information is listed for each of the MM chromatic and metallic dragons under their description in the book. Definately get this book.. our group refers to it simply as "The New players book" hrothgar
shadow mage 02-23-04, 02:37 PM	Well, I finally have my copy of Draconomicon. I haven't read much into it yet, still in the anatomy area, but I plan on reading it later tonight. Hopefully it will answer all of my questions, as unusually detailed as they usually are, and if it doesn't then looks like this board will rise yet again. Until then... -tips hat-
Kayli 02-23-04, 03:48 PM	Dragon Wingspan to body length ratio is both stated in the Draconomicon and is illistrated by all the pictures (except for the gold dragon). I think the confusion your having is that the wing span is the length of one wing, not both put to gether, if you measure from wing tip to wing tip then their span is twice the length of the body as you are suggesting so we are both right. And remember also that dragons have exceedingly long tails wich most animals of flight do not. Also, the Dragons flight is not purely powered by his wing muscles but also by his Draconis Fundementum which also supplies the fuel for his Breath attack. As for the Dragons Wieght, again my buick is about 2 tons and would probably be considered a Huge Monster so a Huge Dragon that is 2500 lb's or just over 1 ton is not out of line. As for his eating habbits, this is only a little more than what other large predatory animals must eat, but the Dragon must also eat to supply his Draconis Fundementum.
shadow mage 02-24-04, 02:39 PM	Kayli I must say you have a valid point, and most of the sizes I need are given for the two main types of dragons (metallic and chromatic). From here finding the sizes of the various other dragons, from brown to mercury to shadow and mist, will be relatively simple. However, your mentioning of the wings brings back a past argument of mine. Dragons with wings such as the gold dragon can't fly. I don't see how it's possible. The muscle sizes as indicated by the picture is not nearly enough, even with the draconis fundementum, to make wings so small propell a dragon. The sail-like wings would have to be enormous, MUCH bigger than as shown in any of the descriptions, to be able to move a multi-ton creature through the air. Up-down strokes would cause a ripple-like motion that would keep the dragon aloft, IF, and I must stress that word, the "sails" are porportionally larger than the wings of the other dragons with_"normal" wings.
Kayli 02-24-04, 07:18 PM	Your probably right. But there are two things. One this is fantasy so logic and aerodynamics will not always apply even when they should. Secondly, the Picture of the Gold dragon in the Draconomicon does not relate to the numerical discriptions of him in the book. You will note that the length of his wing frim tip to spine is about the length of his body minus his tail or from nose to rump (in the picuter). while the discription states that his wing from tip to spine is longer then he is from nose to tail tip. In any case most dragons fly primarely by finding thermals and gliding up in circulare paterns until they reach a desired hight, then they would glide towards their destination, using their wing muscles primaraly to provide the ocasional forward thurst. they would mostly glide and lose altitude as they went, eventually they would find anouther thermal and rise up high into the sky to regain their altitude and continue the cycle until they reached their destination. This is in fact how most large birds fly (and why I think Dragons fly this way as well). They Flap their wings mostly at take off and landing the flight is mostly wings out (like an airplane) to catch the air and provide lift. Also there are several airplanes that have Stubby(for lack of a better word) wings. While granted they don't use their wings for thust like dragons do, short wings that are long (body wise) can provide quite a bit of lift, and in flight, lift is every thing. :D There could also be a game mechanics reason for not giving Gold Dragons the longer wingspan that they should have. If the Wings are longer, then he has a longer reach with them, and instead of 2 reach veriables to keep track of in combat, you would have 3 (one for his wings, one for his bite, and one for his claws).
shadow mage 03-02-04, 02:45 PM	It is true that most winged beings fly by riding thermals, but there is a large difference between dragons and anything as we know it. The main difference is muscle mass and the long tail. Although useful, thermals would play a proportionally smaller part in the flight patters of a dragon than it would in other creatures with lighter infrastructures. As a variant, I was thinking of something to do about my wing issues, and before anyone says, "You're the DM, do what you want to," I aim for as much realism as possible according to the setting. And yes Draconomicon had exactly what I needed, with only a few minor modifications (the shorter wingspan would likely mean decreased weight, but again, that's just my view). As a rule I planned to pretty much abandon the sail-like wings and assume dragons to have "normal" wings like those of the silver, chromatic, gem, and other such dragons. The only dragon that would be hard to modify in this way would be the gold dragon out of simple appearance, seeing as how physically it is almost completely different than any of the other dragons. The whiskers and sail-like wings, as well as the serpentine build, make it seem more akin to the oriental dragons. What's your views here, Kayli?
strenoth 03-03-04, 12:54 AM	given the fact that there are dragon species that entirely lack wngs that can fly just fine, i wouldn;t worry about flight issues. :)
Kayli 03-03-04, 02:48 AM	Of all the dragons, stylisticaly speacking, the gold probably underwent the most significant changes from 2ed to 3ed. And yes it is definetly more reminescent of Oriental dragons, but it still has wings wich most oriental dragons do not. if you whant an example of a Gold dragon with more bat like wings then I would look to old Dragon Lance Pictures. there is one of a Gold and Red Locked in Arial Combat with their riders jousting each other that is from Either the Legend of Huma or from the Dragon Lance Chronicles. That has a more traditional Gold Dragon. If you can't find that picture then you could take the Red as a Template, and makle a few modifications to body shape and facial structure. One thing to consider, the weights given are not that out of line considering the dragons size. A Medium Dragon is Weighs as much as a Lion for instance. A Large One is like a horse. And Clidesdales can reach up to a ton, and the Dragon is going to have way more muscle mass then any horse. the Huge Dragon well your looking at an Elephant, the Gargantuan is something like a Blue Whale in size. And Muscle weighs quite a lot, the Draogns Muscle mass prebably equates to something like 70+% of his weight. You could reduce his weight by making his bones hollow like a birds (assuming that WOTC didn't take this into consideration when they came up with their weight tables) but yu are only talking about 2-3% reduction in weight. Also if you look at some weigt to size increase tables when the size increases the weight increase at a much more rapid pace and is not linear. The PHB 3.0 sugests that weight increases at a cubed rate compared to size increase. Lets take a 10 pound turcky for exampel. He is about 2 feet so if we were to increas his size to 6 feet (300% increase) his weight would increase to 270 lb's. As for the Wings, the X30(?) flies just fine and its wings are like 4-6 ft long, mayby less. I often go back and forth on the style of teh Gold and weathere I like the things they did to it in 3ed or if I like a more traditional body type better for him. I have a question for you. Will you alow Dragon PC's in your campaign? Have you considered porting Draconians into your campaign world?
shadow mage 03-03-04, 02:46 PM	I will most certainly look at the Dragonlance pictures, but I have a feeling the red or silver will be my starting points for the modified gold dragon. Yes dragon PCs will exist in this world, it's made to be somewhat of a homeworld for the PCs, actually. That means that my brand new copy of Draconomicon (a serious blessing) will be used a LOT. As for the X30 (a high speed plane, if I'm not mistaken), it has short wings because it is very light, very small, and flies at very high speeds compared to other planes of its size. (I'll look this up to make sure, though, I'm going by what I think I remember from Popular Science). As for dragons without wings flying, do list a few examples, please? If a dragon does not have wings (the brown for instance) it can't fly naturally. Dragons with wings (aside from dracoliches) fly as an extraordinary ability, unless otherwise stated. Correct, me if I'm wrong.
Derren S. 03-03-04, 02:52 PM	Originally posted by shadow mage As for dragons without wings flying, do list a few examples, please? If a dragon does not have wings (the brown for instance) it can't fly naturally. Dragons with wings (aside from dracoliches) fly as an extraordinary ability, unless otherwise stated. Correct, me if I'm wrong. Dragons with wings fly because they have wings. Dragons without wings mostly have Fly as Ex ability (Lung Dragons found in the OA look here (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=/dnd/images/oa_gallery/Lung_dragons2.jpg&origin=dnd_ag_20011012a) for examples)