Dragons and vow of poverty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons and vow of poverty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
X105_Strike
03-01-04, 03:27 AM Can a dragon take vow of poverty??

It seems to be logical for a max/miner to take vow of poverty as a dragon... that would be powerful...

however.. it is also the nature of the dragon to hoard gold....

would you, as a dm, allow it?

how would the abilities of VoP progress?
howlingwolf
03-01-04, 05:18 AM I'm not too sure what or if there are any mechanics, or if a VoP is a background thing, but I'd say it's okay.

If you look in the back of the book, several of the sample dragons for one reason or another give away/spend their hoards freely, or only have what they can carry on them.

So it's safe to say if this is possible, there are those who don't hoard besides what they need to use/eat/whatever. Of course it would be rare!
Derren S.
03-01-04, 11:16 AM The only dragon it would really make sense is a dragon ascendent.
It has to consume it whole hoard and has to be true to its alignment.
Sacred Mesa
03-01-04, 11:44 AM could any one please :confused: tell me what Vow of Poverty is?

i havent bought the Book of Exalted deed yet but i really good like to know its mechanics, system and concept.

ill be thankfull. please
Derren S.
03-01-04, 11:47 AM Its a feat.
You are not allowed to own anything except for food, clothes and a nonmagical weapon and you get massive AC, Skill, Ability, etc. boni and extra feats.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
03-01-04, 12:30 PM I would allow it. In fact, I nearly got to play a gold dragon ascetic a while back. The game never got started so I didnt get to do it, but it was fun coming up with a background.
strenoth
03-01-04, 12:33 PM And it woudl kick butt, with an extra RPing based semi-penalty/condition: Many other dragons would look at you very very very strangely. :)
lukelightning
03-01-04, 02:30 PM I would never allow it. Even if I were to allow the vow of poverty, I wouldn't allow it for anything like a dragon that doesn't need magic items in the first place.
was_fired
03-01-04, 03:44 PM I see nothing wrong with it. Being unable to reproduce (poor dragons get no mates) seems like a downside as does being forced to live a moral life. Also dragons do get major benifits from magical items since they don't have to spend all their money on weapons to be an effective fighter. You lose the ability to have magical armor and dex boosting items which are a dragons best friends. Not to mention the fact they have use magical device as a class skill which they can't use with the vow (at least from what I understand about it they can't carry around magical scrolls and wands).
Sacred Mesa
03-01-04, 05:36 PM Derren thanx for taking care... but could u be more specific...

i really would like to know the details...
strenoth
03-01-04, 06:06 PM he can't be more specific with out violating copyright.

and as for dragon's and magic items.. you mean yoru dragons don't carryaround wands of every spel they need often? with both the sorcerer and cleric list as 'class spells', they can already use those with out UMD.

and their UMD covers druid-spell wands, and any other class-only magic items.
adiaven
03-01-04, 08:09 PM a vow of poverty dragon is like a balor paladin.....
ibitak84
03-02-04, 09:19 AM Originally posted by adiaven
a vow of poverty dragon is like a balor paladin.....

Oh, it has been done before? ;):D
adiaven
03-02-04, 01:05 PM just because you can does not mean you should
Toptomcat
03-02-04, 02:21 PM Would munching on coins and valuables count as disobeying the VoP?
strenoth
03-03-04, 12:55 AM yes actually, well, maybe you could eat a 'single meal's worth, but the rest has to be donated to a charity or church. :) with VoP, you still have to take a share of the treasure, but that share is donated.
ikki
03-03-04, 03:30 PM Originally posted by was_fired
Being unable to reproduce (poor dragons get no mates) seems like a downside as does being forced to live a moral life...

Now where do YOU think all those 1/2 dragons come from..? :D :D :D
BenjCano
03-07-04, 06:42 AM Unfortunately, the Vow of Poverty benefits are based on character level, not Hit Die, so I'm not sure it would work...
Pumpoei
03-07-04, 08:07 AM It sounds like pure munchy cheeze to me.

But I wouldn't disallow it on those grounds alone; don't dragons have to consume huge quantities of precious metals to advance in age catagory?

I hope you like being a Wyrmling for two thousands years...
Derren S.
03-07-04, 08:26 AM Originally posted by Pumpoei
It sounds like pure munchy cheeze to me.

But I wouldn't disallow it on those grounds alone; don't dragons have to consume huge quantities of precious metals to advance in age catagory?

I hope you like being a Wyrmling for two thousands years...

No, thats a Council of Wyrms rule.
jedrious
03-07-04, 10:06 AM Originally posted by BenjCano
Unfortunately, the Vow of Poverty benefits are based on character level, not Hit Die, so I'm not sure it would work... ah except character level is defined as hit dice plus class levels
Mutablegenus
03-07-04, 10:36 AM you know it seems that VoP[vow of poverty or vow of peace] are just magic words for a thread where everyone responds to it... like a thread named

NIGHT HAGS AND VOW OF POVERTY??
Lankin the Mad Mage
03-08-04, 04:17 AM Well, the ascetic taking the VoP are still allowed to eat, right? They don't have to starve. So some of the treasure could very well be used as food (as long as it isn't carried or "owned"). Of cource, MOST of it should still be donated.

The big problem is that the dragon in question will most likely become a Pariah, an outcast. Dragons determine individual worth based on wealth, and younger dragons can actually rise above older dragons if they have a big enough hoard.

Any dragon with absolutely no hoard (Ascendant is perhaps an exception) will be scorned by the rest of the dragons in the world.

Also, mating with dragons is out. But this doesn't stop mating with mortal races....

I like it. I'll try to get it into one of my games as soon as I can.
Veneficus
06-20-04, 07:23 AM I would allow a dragon to take Vow of Poverty, but I would house rule that the benefits accrued with class levels rather than total character level. Also, the dragon could never become a Dragon Ascendant, since that PrC requires the dragon to consume a hoard which the Vow prevents it from possessing to consume.
Derren S.
06-20-04, 07:25 AM Unless the dragon takes the Vow after becoming an ascendant, which imo is a rather logical thing to do.
Drake Dragonslayer
06-20-04, 02:48 PM Heh. I can imagine the looks on the Players faces.

They just beat a souped up Great wyrm and move into it's lair expecting to find a hoard awaiting them. And instead they find nothing.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Derren S.
06-20-04, 02:50 PM But they find something! A walking (flying?) stick and food for one day!
HamHam
06-20-04, 03:13 PM Originally posted by Veneficus
I would allow a dragon to take Vow of Poverty, but I would house rule that the benefits accrued with class levels rather than total character level. Also, the dragon could never become a Dragon Ascendant, since that PrC requires the dragon to consume a hoard which the Vow prevents it from possessing to consume.

What if he eats another dragon's hoard?
Derren S.
06-20-04, 03:21 PM No, it must eat its hord, not the hoard of someone else.

But nothing prevents the ascendant to not eat another dragon after getting into the PRC and take its hoard.
Crimson Hellkite
06-20-04, 04:52 PM Originally posted by Derren S.
Its a feat.
You are not allowed to own anything except for food, clothes and a nonmagical weapon and you get massive AC, Skill, Ability, etc. boni and extra feats.

Unless you happen to be Latin, "boni" is the plural of "boner". The plural of "bonus" is "bonuses".
Mage of Sembia
06-22-04, 12:20 PM If anyone is a very mean DM, just have all of the encounters be against creatures that take vows of poverty. They are much tougher, and there is no reward besides the experience.
Darson
06-22-04, 07:21 PM Vow of poverty for a dragon would be GREAT! First all you are doing is trading treasure for story...That is cool. Second the look on EVERY players face would be great. have some alternate form (human) dragon travling with the party for a while...Always talking about the importance of self control and avoiding over indulgence.....Then l;et a BBEG show. Dragon gets pressed transforms and WHOOPS some..........Then politely changes back and continues his travels as if nothing happened....
strenoth
06-22-04, 10:37 PM Originally posted by Mage of Sembia
If anyone is a very mean DM, just have all of the encounters be against creatures that take vows of poverty. They are much tougher, and there is no reward besides the experience.

well, that woudl meant he character are facing nothing but exaltedly good creatures.... so why are the heroes fighting these creatures?
Lina_Inverse
06-22-04, 11:29 PM Originally posted by strenoth
well, that woudl meant he character are facing nothing but exaltedly good creatures.... so why are the heroes fighting these creatures?

because there named katrina,stauss and the drow? ;)

but on topic,HELL NO!there is NO rp justification for not haveing a horde as a dragon.either
A.there taught from birth to horde tresure and love its shineyness
B.there born loveing shineys
both are kinda hard to ignore xP
jedrious
06-23-04, 12:14 AM Originally posted by Lina_Inverse
because there named katrina,stauss and the drow? ;)

but on topic,HELL NO!there is NO rp justification for not haveing a horde as a dragon.either
A.there taught from birth to horde tresure and love its shineyness
B.there born loveing shineys
both are kinda hard to ignore xP
Kids today: are taught from birth not to lie
are taught from birth that stealing, killing, fighting and all sorts of illegal things are wrong
Now look at the number of Lawyers, Polititians and Criminals we have in the US alone, now tell me that there's no possibility whatsoever that a dragon could grow up and not live by the preconceptions set forth by their parents
Lina_Inverse
06-23-04, 12:22 AM Originally posted by jedrious
Kids today: are taught from birth not to lie
are taught from birth that stealing, killing, fighting and all sorts of illegal things are wrong
Now look at the number of Lawyers, Polititians and Criminals we have in the US alone, now tell me that there's no possibility whatsoever that a dragon could grow up and not live by the preconceptions set forth by their parents

kids today,are taught to do whatever it takes to get ahead.which also concurs with there nature ie be selfish and care only for themselves.
Dracophile
06-23-04, 02:29 AM If someone is brave enough to take the ECL hit and play a dragon, then go ahead and give them a VoP. Dragons are behind the power curve, after all. The Vow ain't gonna put them on par with most PCs.

(And just when dragons start getting cool--high ECL and average player wealth--VoP becomes less attractive anyways.)
Son_Of_Cthulhu
06-28-04, 09:25 AM it all depends on your type of dragon. most dragons pride themselves on their hordes and their status among other dragons depends on the size of their hordes and other valuables. such dragons like the chromatic ones would never in their sane minds take on Vow of Poverty, but if you are playing as a gold dragon or some other EXTREMELY good aligned gragon, i don't see why they wouldn't take a VoP. but personally, i feel that dragons would never take on VoP because pretty much every aspect of their lives (popularity, status, heirachy, etc.) are dependant on their horde. but, i guess it all depends on you and your DM's house rules.
trapspringer
06-28-04, 12:21 PM Yet another reason VOP is waaayyy to powerful for the likes of us mere mortals.
Zif
06-28-04, 12:47 PM Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite
Unless you happen to be Latin, "boni" is the plural of "boner". The plural of "bonus" is "bonuses". I recently took two semesters of Latin and really enjoy knowing the language, but in this case I agree - while "bonus" is from a Latin word, the English word has a mostly different meaning and has its own paradigm, of which "bonuses" is the plural.
rubenlinde
06-28-04, 01:48 PM There are indeed examples of dragons without a hoard but these are rare and usually have a very good reason. My mind simply does not agree with a dragon without hoard. That they have hoards is part of them like having wings scales and teeth. But if such a dragon were to exist hey would be as liked as a knight of tyranny on a bbq party of down bringers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
X105_Strike 03-01-04, 03:27 AM	Can a dragon take vow of poverty?? It seems to be logical for a max/miner to take vow of poverty as a dragon... that would be powerful... however.. it is also the nature of the dragon to hoard gold.... would you, as a dm, allow it? how would the abilities of VoP progress?
howlingwolf 03-01-04, 05:18 AM	I'm not too sure what or if there are any mechanics, or if a VoP is a background thing, but I'd say it's okay. If you look in the back of the book, several of the sample dragons for one reason or another give away/spend their hoards freely, or only have what they can carry on them. So it's safe to say if this is possible, there are those who don't hoard besides what they need to use/eat/whatever. Of course it would be rare!
Derren S. 03-01-04, 11:16 AM	The only dragon it would really make sense is a dragon ascendent. It has to consume it whole hoard and has to be true to its alignment.
Sacred Mesa 03-01-04, 11:44 AM	could any one please :confused: tell me what Vow of Poverty is? i havent bought the Book of Exalted deed yet but i really good like to know its mechanics, system and concept. ill be thankfull. please
Derren S. 03-01-04, 11:47 AM	Its a feat. You are not allowed to own anything except for food, clothes and a nonmagical weapon and you get massive AC, Skill, Ability, etc. boni and extra feats.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 03-01-04, 12:30 PM	I would allow it. In fact, I nearly got to play a gold dragon ascetic a while back. The game never got started so I didnt get to do it, but it was fun coming up with a background.
strenoth 03-01-04, 12:33 PM	And it woudl kick butt, with an extra RPing based semi-penalty/condition: Many other dragons would look at you very very very strangely. :)
lukelightning 03-01-04, 02:30 PM	I would never allow it. Even if I were to allow the vow of poverty, I wouldn't allow it for anything like a dragon that doesn't need magic items in the first place.
was_fired 03-01-04, 03:44 PM	I see nothing wrong with it. Being unable to reproduce (poor dragons get no mates) seems like a downside as does being forced to live a moral life. Also dragons do get major benifits from magical items since they don't have to spend all their money on weapons to be an effective fighter. You lose the ability to have magical armor and dex boosting items which are a dragons best friends. Not to mention the fact they have use magical device as a class skill which they can't use with the vow (at least from what I understand about it they can't carry around magical scrolls and wands).
Sacred Mesa 03-01-04, 05:36 PM	Derren thanx for taking care... but could u be more specific... i really would like to know the details...
strenoth 03-01-04, 06:06 PM	he can't be more specific with out violating copyright. and as for dragon's and magic items.. you mean yoru dragons don't carryaround wands of every spel they need often? with both the sorcerer and cleric list as 'class spells', they can already use those with out UMD. and their UMD covers druid-spell wands, and any other class-only magic items.
adiaven 03-01-04, 08:09 PM	a vow of poverty dragon is like a balor paladin.....
ibitak84 03-02-04, 09:19 AM	Originally posted by adiaven a vow of poverty dragon is like a balor paladin..... Oh, it has been done before? ;):D
adiaven 03-02-04, 01:05 PM	just because you can does not mean you should
Toptomcat 03-02-04, 02:21 PM	Would munching on coins and valuables count as disobeying the VoP?
strenoth 03-03-04, 12:55 AM	yes actually, well, maybe you could eat a 'single meal's worth, but the rest has to be donated to a charity or church. :) with VoP, you still have to take a share of the treasure, but that share is donated.
ikki 03-03-04, 03:30 PM	Originally posted by was_fired Being unable to reproduce (poor dragons get no mates) seems like a downside as does being forced to live a moral life... Now where do YOU think all those 1/2 dragons come from..? :D :D :D
BenjCano 03-07-04, 06:42 AM	Unfortunately, the Vow of Poverty benefits are based on character level, not Hit Die, so I'm not sure it would work...
Pumpoei 03-07-04, 08:07 AM	It sounds like pure munchy cheeze to me. But I wouldn't disallow it on those grounds alone; don't dragons have to consume huge quantities of precious metals to advance in age catagory? I hope you like being a Wyrmling for two thousands years...
Derren S. 03-07-04, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by Pumpoei It sounds like pure munchy cheeze to me. But I wouldn't disallow it on those grounds alone; don't dragons have to consume huge quantities of precious metals to advance in age catagory? I hope you like being a Wyrmling for two thousands years... No, thats a Council of Wyrms rule.
jedrious 03-07-04, 10:06 AM	Originally posted by BenjCano Unfortunately, the Vow of Poverty benefits are based on character level, not Hit Die, so I'm not sure it would work... ah except character level is defined as hit dice plus class levels
Mutablegenus 03-07-04, 10:36 AM	you know it seems that VoP[vow of poverty or vow of peace] are just magic words for a thread where everyone responds to it... like a thread named NIGHT HAGS AND VOW OF POVERTY??
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-08-04, 04:17 AM	Well, the ascetic taking the VoP are still allowed to eat, right? They don't have to starve. So some of the treasure could very well be used as food (as long as it isn't carried or "owned"). Of cource, MOST of it should still be donated. The big problem is that the dragon in question will most likely become a Pariah, an outcast. Dragons determine individual worth based on wealth, and younger dragons can actually rise above older dragons if they have a big enough hoard. Any dragon with absolutely no hoard (Ascendant is perhaps an exception) will be scorned by the rest of the dragons in the world. Also, mating with dragons is out. But this doesn't stop mating with mortal races.... I like it. I'll try to get it into one of my games as soon as I can.
Veneficus 06-20-04, 07:23 AM	I would allow a dragon to take Vow of Poverty, but I would house rule that the benefits accrued with class levels rather than total character level. Also, the dragon could never become a Dragon Ascendant, since that PrC requires the dragon to consume a hoard which the Vow prevents it from possessing to consume.
Derren S. 06-20-04, 07:25 AM	Unless the dragon takes the Vow after becoming an ascendant, which imo is a rather logical thing to do.
Drake Dragonslayer 06-20-04, 02:48 PM	Heh. I can imagine the looks on the Players faces. They just beat a souped up Great wyrm and move into it's lair expecting to find a hoard awaiting them. And instead they find nothing. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Derren S. 06-20-04, 02:50 PM	But they find something! A walking (flying?) stick and food for one day!
HamHam 06-20-04, 03:13 PM	Originally posted by Veneficus I would allow a dragon to take Vow of Poverty, but I would house rule that the benefits accrued with class levels rather than total character level. Also, the dragon could never become a Dragon Ascendant, since that PrC requires the dragon to consume a hoard which the Vow prevents it from possessing to consume. What if he eats another dragon's hoard?
Derren S. 06-20-04, 03:21 PM	No, it must eat its hord, not the hoard of someone else. But nothing prevents the ascendant to not eat another dragon after getting into the PRC and take its hoard.
Crimson Hellkite 06-20-04, 04:52 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Its a feat. You are not allowed to own anything except for food, clothes and a nonmagical weapon and you get massive AC, Skill, Ability, etc. boni and extra feats. Unless you happen to be Latin, "boni" is the plural of "boner". The plural of "bonus" is "bonuses".
Mage of Sembia 06-22-04, 12:20 PM	If anyone is a very mean DM, just have all of the encounters be against creatures that take vows of poverty. They are much tougher, and there is no reward besides the experience.
Darson 06-22-04, 07:21 PM	Vow of poverty for a dragon would be GREAT! First all you are doing is trading treasure for story...That is cool. Second the look on EVERY players face would be great. have some alternate form (human) dragon travling with the party for a while...Always talking about the importance of self control and avoiding over indulgence.....Then l;et a BBEG show. Dragon gets pressed transforms and WHOOPS some..........Then politely changes back and continues his travels as if nothing happened....
strenoth 06-22-04, 10:37 PM	Originally posted by Mage of Sembia If anyone is a very mean DM, just have all of the encounters be against creatures that take vows of poverty. They are much tougher, and there is no reward besides the experience. well, that woudl meant he character are facing nothing but exaltedly good creatures.... so why are the heroes fighting these creatures?
Lina_Inverse 06-22-04, 11:29 PM	Originally posted by strenoth well, that woudl meant he character are facing nothing but exaltedly good creatures.... so why are the heroes fighting these creatures? because there named katrina,stauss and the drow? ;) but on topic,HELL NO!there is NO rp justification for not haveing a horde as a dragon.either A.there taught from birth to horde tresure and love its shineyness B.there born loveing shineys both are kinda hard to ignore xP
jedrious 06-23-04, 12:14 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse because there named katrina,stauss and the drow? ;) but on topic,HELL NO!there is NO rp justification for not haveing a horde as a dragon.either A.there taught from birth to horde tresure and love its shineyness B.there born loveing shineys both are kinda hard to ignore xP Kids today: are taught from birth not to lie are taught from birth that stealing, killing, fighting and all sorts of illegal things are wrong Now look at the number of Lawyers, Polititians and Criminals we have in the US alone, now tell me that there's no possibility whatsoever that a dragon could grow up and not live by the preconceptions set forth by their parents
Lina_Inverse 06-23-04, 12:22 AM	Originally posted by jedrious Kids today: are taught from birth not to lie are taught from birth that stealing, killing, fighting and all sorts of illegal things are wrong Now look at the number of Lawyers, Polititians and Criminals we have in the US alone, now tell me that there's no possibility whatsoever that a dragon could grow up and not live by the preconceptions set forth by their parents kids today,are taught to do whatever it takes to get ahead.which also concurs with there nature ie be selfish and care only for themselves.
Dracophile 06-23-04, 02:29 AM	If someone is brave enough to take the ECL hit and play a dragon, then go ahead and give them a VoP. Dragons are behind the power curve, after all. The Vow ain't gonna put them on par with most PCs. (And just when dragons start getting cool--high ECL and average player wealth--VoP becomes less attractive anyways.)
Son_Of_Cthulhu 06-28-04, 09:25 AM	it all depends on your type of dragon. most dragons pride themselves on their hordes and their status among other dragons depends on the size of their hordes and other valuables. such dragons like the chromatic ones would never in their sane minds take on Vow of Poverty, but if you are playing as a gold dragon or some other EXTREMELY good aligned gragon, i don't see why they wouldn't take a VoP. but personally, i feel that dragons would never take on VoP because pretty much every aspect of their lives (popularity, status, heirachy, etc.) are dependant on their horde. but, i guess it all depends on you and your DM's house rules.
trapspringer 06-28-04, 12:21 PM	Yet another reason VOP is waaayyy to powerful for the likes of us mere mortals.
Zif 06-28-04, 12:47 PM	Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite Unless you happen to be Latin, "boni" is the plural of "boner". The plural of "bonus" is "bonuses". I recently took two semesters of Latin and really enjoy knowing the language, but in this case I agree - while "bonus" is from a Latin word, the English word has a mostly different meaning and has its own paradigm, of which "bonuses" is the plural.
rubenlinde 06-28-04, 01:48 PM	There are indeed examples of dragons without a hoard but these are rare and usually have a very good reason. My mind simply does not agree with a dragon without hoard. That they have hoards is part of them like having wings scales and teeth. But if such a dragon were to exist hey would be as liked as a knight of tyranny on a bbq party of down bringers.