Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Enox Sarinox 05-24-04, 10:41 AM	Hello, I hope any of you have suggestions on how to kill dragons? Last time I encountered a dragon was a Green juvenile (CR8). We walked into a which after we walked collapest from behind so there was no way out, when we looked downwards into the cave there was the dragon. He had the highest Intniative and did a breath weapon which knocked down (-1HP) my sorc lvl 8 and our roque lvl 8. The three that were standin were the barbarian7/fighter1, the fighter2/cleric6 and the ranger8. Just by pure luck and some alterations by our DM(lower HP, otherwise were all dead) we surrived. But now we have to go back again and we know there is the same dragon. HOW DO YOU KILL IT? has high saves so my sorc is pretty much useless. has high AC, and megga high attack which can hit our melee fighters pretty easly. Yours Sincerely, Enox Sarinox
DeathOfRats 05-24-04, 11:05 AM	You have to get it on a battlefield of your choosing. Fighting anything in its lair is a bad idea as it is constructed specifically to aid fight/flight. Not letting it fly is a good idea, as is spreading out to avoid maximum people in one area for breath weapon attacks. Don't forget to use vulnerbilities to elemental damage to your advantage too.
CrimsonPhoenix 05-24-04, 01:50 PM	You could try to get help from another dragon...any metallic dragons living in that area would be more than glad to get rid of a chromatic near them. Depending on the type of campaign you are playing it shouldn't be too hard to find one if you're looking for them. Might want a reward tho...
BrianMc223 05-24-04, 02:19 PM	Soverin glue-2400gp 20ft chain-60gp Scroll of Planeshiftx2-4550gp Scroll of Gate-8825gp You DM's face :OMG! when you open the gate from beneath an ocean of lava on the elemental plane of fire 20-feet above the dragon you just chained to the ground: Priceless.
Chachi 05-24-04, 04:31 PM	I hope those scrolls of plane shift are for running the Hell away, because the unpleasant thing about a near-unlimited source of magma is the way it's going to, you know, fill up whatever space it's conjured in. Or are we assuming that the characters will survive (and maybe even enjoy) taking 20d6 damage a round as they try to escape a billion tons of liquid rock?
BrianMc223 05-24-04, 07:48 PM	Chain and run..........
Derren S. 05-25-04, 01:45 AM	And hope that the dragon doesn't break/destroy the chain.
Kalender 05-25-04, 07:04 AM	and doesn't move in the whole round before the sovereign glue works
fiskpaj 05-26-04, 03:15 PM	Because of all the planning and dangers involved in the slaying of a dragon, PC's should get more XP for it. But this leads to an intresting conclusion: If they give more XP, and more treasure, and are harder to kill (the DM should know this and the party must have rested and so on), why not just give dragons a higher CR? Triple treasure at a higher CR would be a bit closer to the tales about dragons gigantic treasure hoards. And come on, why is it cool to slay something with a low CR?
Nightshade22 05-26-04, 05:42 PM	be creative. on the What's a Dm to do? board, there's a thread about players defeating a dragon (or trying to) by throwing a Quall's feather token (oak tree) in it's mouth. :devil: Downwards into the cave? Drop something to block it's way, or drown it, or boil it, or drop anything else nasty down there. When you have the advantage of gravity...
Shadowslayer 05-26-04, 07:15 PM	Depending on the size, age, and species of dragon tactics will vary. For instance, a juvenile green dragon does not have SR, so softening him up with area attack spells or spells that don't require attack rolls helps immensely. If at all possible, melee combat should be avoided. Five or six attacks with a full attack coupled with a high AC and insanely high attack bonus potentially makes an unprepared toe-to-toe confrontation with a dragon akin to skydiving w/o a parachute. Ranged support is a must, especially if the dragon is flying. Think 150 ft. a round with strafing breath weapon capabilities. If you can, choose a battlefield which restricts flight altogether. A common mantra among warriors is that if you can't move, you're dead. Speaking of moving, ranks in the Tumble skill are especially useful for closing the gap with Large size or bigger dragons, because of their reach (not to mention the Large and In Charge feat). Rogues are (perhaps not surprisingly) effective in a dragon encounter. Evasion and high Ref saves make them among the most survivable characters vs. breath weapons, and a few ranks in Tumble allows them to close in and flank the dragon - providing a useful bonus to the melee fighters on the other side and facilitating his sneak attack. If all else fails, don't be too proud to retreat. The tactics are endless. The best possible advice (I believe) is to always try to be prepared. Knowledge is your best tool here; gather whatever intelligence you can on the dragon's characteristics and habitat, and formulate a sound plan using every possible tool to your advantage (terrain, spell combos, weather, etc.). If at all possible, AMBUSH! Easier said than done, I know, due to keen senses and blindsense.
Smite-Mo-Tron 05-27-04, 11:19 AM	You just need a few Longspears of Piercing. That ought to get 'em. After that if you have money, Staff of the Dragonslayer. You can suppress his breath and use a few others, like lowering his spell resistance. Enter with stealth, and spread out. Flank it, Flank it, Flank It. If you have dodge, ABOVE ALL ELSE, remember to say "I am Dodging the Dragon."
Nolgoth 06-03-04, 04:21 PM	Don't forget that you have already lost one good element, surprise. If you are preparing for the dragon, I would assume that the dragon is sitting in it's lair thinking, "Damn, some adventurers have discovered my lair. Even though I trashed them once, they are adventurers. That means they will probably be back. Should I prepare? Or should I just sleep?"
trapspringer 06-04-04, 12:14 PM	Ray of enfeeblement followed by grappling. He won't get a save against the ray, which is a touch attack. Maximise it, empower it, quicken it, heck, just dump everything you have into that ray. (true-strike might be a good idea) Once he is grappled, it will be a race to kill the dragon before it's breath weapon kills your fighter. (but hey, your not the fighter, so who cares?)
bullfrog 06-04-04, 12:55 PM	If it’s a green dragon get as many items to protect from acid as you can. If the battle takes place out of its cave it will most likely be in a forest. Use the cover from the trees to hide from it if it flies over. Try and hit it with as many spells and ranged weapons as you can before it closes in. From its size it may have difficulty moving in a forest. It would ether have to knock down the trees in its way ( witch should slow it down a bit.) Of fly. Good luck.
Ruinous 06-04-04, 01:22 PM	Take a suitably fighter like undead, cover it in sovreign glue and get to climb in to the dragons mouth (possibly with the help of some protection from [Element]), then get some grappaling hooks attached to walls by liberal use of sovreign glue and throw over dragon- no flight, no move, no breath- all you got to watch out for is spells (and its likley its going to have some trouble casting them). Of course this only lasts a couple of rounds so you will probably want some archers (2-3 with many shot) to fire suitable arrows (peircing, elemental damage, custom magic etc.) for as long as possible, summon up some elementals of a suitable type, fire/cold/acid/lightning balls, rogues with wands, hired thugs (with iron will and owls wisdom etc.) to die by fighting it to the death.
Deluxe 247 G 06-04-04, 02:43 PM	Okay, so you guys are all ECL 8. I'm sure if you guys pooled your money together, then you could get some greater slaying arrows(dragon). For DC save...what is it? 23 about? I know that the dragon has very good fortitude, but if you hit him with 20 arrows, heck, odds are on at least one of his saves he'll get a natural one on at least one of his saves. I don't have my books, but maybe a 2 or 3 may even fail. Or you could just get some greater slaying or just slaying weapons. I have the calculations at home, but I just multiplied the cost of the arrows by 50, and then move the price up until it hits an enchanment bonus. I think the greater arrows are about 2,500 GP each right? Well if they are, then 2,500 x 50 = 125,000. + 7 enhancemnt is 98,000 +1 = 2,000 +3 = 8,000 +3 = 18,000 +4 = 32,000 +5 = 50,000 +6 = 72,000 +7 = 98,000 +8 = 124,000 +9 = 162,000 +10 = 100,000 thats the table, so you could either say that greater slaying is a +8 and be nice, or say that it's a +9 and be mean. Well, I guess not mean, cuz it is homebrew...but then again, that is A LOT of GPs. BTW, I multiplied by 50 because you can buy a +1 bow for 2,000 GP(ONLY enhancement), and 50 +1 arrows for 2,000(ONLY enhancement), so why not with other abilities? It says somewhere in the DMG you can make enhancements in 50s for ammo, why not turn that bad boy around. Also, I do realize that it's a set amount and should probably stay that way, I'm just looking for some more 'ease' to the game. More freedom to what you can do. Now I know that your party probably doesnt have this much money, but if they do, it's just another option. Or do the same procedure for lesser slaying(dragons) and hope he gets a natural one...Or maybe just enhance all of your weapons an additional +1 and get Bane (dragon). Also, you're prolly gonna wanna buy some lesser acid resist on all of your armors. Keep in mind, it's a set price, so it won't hinder any future upgrades to your armor. Hope it helps. Eli
Deluxe 247 G 06-04-04, 02:46 PM	Oops, entered my post too soon. +8 would be 128,000(sorry i did all the calculations in my head), so therefore the price would almost be set in stone at +8 (assuming the price is 2,500) Also, I don't know why I put that +7 enhancement = 98,000 right before the tables, sorry. Eli
Arnkel 06-09-04, 02:02 PM	Another good thing to have: help. at a mere 20 gp a day, with a 300 gp down payment, you can hire and outfit a small band of mercenaries to assist in your assault on the dragon. Expect heavy casualties(like all of them). I reccomend equiping them with a cheap missile weapon of some variety(reccomended: 50% sling, 50% Javelin) next arm them with a cheap reach weapon(long spear). Use the band to keep the beast at bay while your melee chars flank and the spell caster hits with as many damaging spells as possible. I reccomend spells such as Magic Missile and Flaming Arrow. Also, don't be stingy with the potions and spells of buffing. You can easily make a group of 1st lvl warriors fight as well as a group of 5th lvl warriors by using the correct spells. Also, make sure you spend scads of your wealth on scrolls, wands, etc. After all, Dragons have hordes don't they?
spike81101 06-09-04, 03:42 PM	Anything to slow the dragon down. Spells like enervation! Anything that requires a touch attack should be easy. Dragons have less than 10 touch ac most of the time due to size and 10 dex. There are no saves against some of the spells that require touch attacks.
HamHam 06-09-04, 08:44 PM	Originally posted by spike81101 Anything to slow the dragon down. Spells like enervation! Anything that requires a touch attack should be easy. Dragons have less than 10 touch ac most of the time due to size and 10 dex. There are no saves against some of the spells that require touch attacks. Wouldn't that involve the caster actually getting close enough to touch it, though?
spike81101 06-10-04, 12:38 AM	Originally posted by HamHam Wouldn't that involve the caster actually getting close enough to touch it, though? No, close, but not that close. Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) So at level 8 you need to be within 45 ft.
Undercover 06-11-04, 12:23 PM	Damnit, 2 years ago I (as DM) lost a juvenile white dragon to Tasha's Hideous Laughter... the players just pounded it to oblivion while it laughed it's ass off. Damn!
Make The Prince 06-12-04, 11:27 PM	I pitty You undercover .... But to kill any hard monsters ambush is THE solution. Take the juvenile green dragon for exemple : Get your rogue to **** it off so it follows the rogue ( who have more chance then any other to dodge ) into a trap/ambush. If it's in a dungeon, take it in a corridor just a bit too small for the dragon and with a room access. Close the access to the room, make the rest of the party wait there. The dragon pass beyond the room, crawling after the rogue. The party opens access to the room and "back-stab it". Tail and back claws are dangerous, but less than the rest. Just make sure the corridor ( or whatever You had at your disposal ) is tight enough so it can't turn around .... That should do the trick.
The Livewire 06-13-04, 11:58 AM	Tanglefoot bag/entangling ectoplasm to slow it down. Ray of enfeeblement. Silence. Heck cast silence of the tanglefoot bag, bind him up and shut him up cast enlarge person on the barb, and let him go to town. Hire a Wilder to go lay a 10d6 crystal shard on him, repeat as needed. (YOu'll need about 5 shards) Have the cleric prepare one of the fast healing spells out of Complete Divine. an empowered ray of enfeeblement (if you have empower) will do (1d6+4) * 1.5 points of damage. Dropping it's strength to somewhere between 13 and 4, lets see it get out of that tanglefoot bag! even a regular one will drop it down to between 14 and 9. both of these reduce it's BAB further. If you can risk your familiar, using it to deliver touch of idiocy can hamper it's spells/will save Does your rogue have UMD? A shocking grasp touch attack (Assuming tumbling to flank) would allow a sneak attack to do 5d6 points of electrical damage. Cleric can throw wind wall to counter the breath weapon, if he tanks up wade into melee with the poison spell memorized (lower the con, lower the fort save/hp) Bless and Prayer stack, BTW. Hope these help
Ipsissimus 06-13-04, 12:19 PM	I like the suggestion that LiveWire, I was going to suggest tanglefoot bags as well among other things that cause confusion and hinder the dragon. Instead of just casting Enlarge person on the barbarian, do it for everyone except maybe yourself. Dragon's natural enemies are Giants after all and being able to deliver more damage with reach will give you party a few extra rounds and the sorc to throw a few more spells in there before you start wailing it with direct damage. From the MM, a juvenile Green Dragon has the following ability scores: Str - 19, Dex - 10, Con - 7, Int - 14, Wis - 15, Cha - 14 Of course you don't really know the dragon's stats but you can make an educated guess that due to it's size it will most likely have a high str and low dex. Target the weaker of the two and it's saves. Though your sorcerer may not have all these spells, try getting some scrolls of them to help. Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of exhaustion, Enervation, Touch of Idiocy The cleric can cast Prayer which buffs the group and lowers the dragon's saves as well. Soften him up with stat debilitating spells, then he starts to become more of a dangerous lizard than a deadly dragon. Good luck and don't forget to search real good in his lair.
masterofmayhem 06-14-04, 10:44 AM	EDIT: POSTED BY: Commander of Chaos (hacking into my account ;) ) Try scorching ray If you can, buy a rod of maximize. Three maxed rays adds up to 144 damage. Considering the dragons low toch AC hitting shouldn't be a problem. Brute force is always a valid option when fighting anything that isn't supposed to win.( BBEG's and the like)
masterofmayhem 06-14-04, 10:50 AM	Originally posted by masterofmayhem Try scorching ray If you can, buy a rod of maximize. Three maxed rays adds up to 144 damage. Considering the dragons low toch AC hitting shouldn't be a problem. Brute force is always a valid option when fighting anything that isn't supposed to win.( BBEG's and the like) :OMG! :confused: I didn't post that . . . . . :confused: EDIT: ah, my friend was using my account again . . .
bournie 07-02-04, 02:22 AM	Ok a pack of people taking on a juvie green is fine, but what about the crazy among us who aspire to Vassal of Bahamut status? We are only allowed to go a Juvie red toe to toe on our own, anyone got any ideas on that.....
Amaron Blackthorn 07-02-04, 12:31 PM	Green dragons? Theys be cool! They are my favorite dragon.:smirk: Are there many people out there trying to become Vassals of Bahamut?
elvnsword 07-04-04, 02:51 AM	a VoB does have to face down a Juv. Red Dragon to achieve recognition. So here is what you do. Most VoB will be Clerics of Bahamut anyway, go to the local Silver/Gold Dragon, (likly a worshipper) and ask politly if they have any information concerning a Red Dragon, and possibly any way to aid in defeating it. (state you wish to do so for bahamut and they might give it). If they ask what you need: Dragonbane anything, Amulet/Armor/Shield of Fire Resistance Red Dragon armor, etc etc etc Keep in mind the Red Dragons weakness' and take a level of Ranger before the encounter (choosing Dragon (red)) for the bonuses to defeat it. Agian, prior to the encounter invest in a repeating crossbow, and bolts with the Brillant Energy, and (can't remember the name no books with me), +1d6, +3d6 on crit cold dmg. Now keep in mind what everyone has said al lot of it applies to all dragons, never fight them in they're den, always make them come to you, and choose the battle ground. Use the crossbow first, firing the bolts at it, with the bonus to attack from the Rng level, you have a much better chance of getting your shot in, if he uses the breath weapon, pray for a good roll and be glad of the Fire resistant armor. draw the melee as a last resort or if he enters melee range ONLY. set traps, or have the local rogue set traps. Above all keep in mind the book says you have to fight it alone. It does not state you can't stack the deck. elvnsword
masterofmayhem 07-04-04, 04:45 AM	Originally posted by elvnsword prior to the encounter invest in a repeating crossbow, and bolts with the Brillant Energy, In 3.5, Brilliant energy weapons ignore non-living matter only. I dont know if that's the same in 3.0.
Derren S. 07-04-04, 04:48 AM	Its the same in 3.0 Brilliant energy doesn't ignore natural armor.
Caleb2004 07-04-04, 06:52 AM	Our group used terminal velocity to our advantage when attacking two green dragons in their lair. The dragons were juvenile and young adult, but assisted by a 12th level half dragon sorcerer, and a kobold city. We decided that sneaking wasn’t an option, so we needed to use speed instead, so falling gave us our best bet. Our cleric cast wind walk on all of us , then our wizard cast levitate on her self and the cleric. We went into cloud form and flew very high over the dragons lair. Then the wizard and cleric dropped out of cloud form, and began buffing. When they were almost done the rest of us started dropping out of cloud form, and then began our plummet to the ground while they finished off our group buffs like haste (3.5 haste, everything else 3.0). When we were in the lair and feet off the ground our feathers of falling went off and we floated safely to the ground, at least for those of use that didn’t have fly because we attacked. The first dragon was dead half way through the second round, the second dragon was dead at the end of 8 (dam improved invisibility, and obscuring mist), and the sorcerer was dead two rounds later. Then it was just some clean up of a whole lot of kobolds, but were feeing because we had just killed their gods. We were over all very happy at the end of the encounter.
elvnsword 07-04-04, 12:10 PM	Sorry about that, like it says 3 am post, with no books... lol. Anyway, somthing else that could be done instead of Brillant Energy, is hire a mage to cast buffs on you before hand. Haste is a good buff, but fly is a nigh neccasary buff if facing the dragon in less then ideal circumstance. Nothing bites more then the party being stuck on the ground while the dragon circles waiting for it's breath weapon to recharge.... Elvnsword
Derren S. 07-04-04, 02:29 PM	If you ask me, dragons are still too easy to kill. The cause is not the dragons stats, but some spell/item combination which let you kill anything in short time. Just see above for some examples like the triple maximized scorching ray. Imo, the SR of dragons should be increased by ~4 points.