Dragons are Wrong???? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons are Wrong???? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Malakiel
05-11-04, 12:20 PM this post its a call for help, im running a Dragon PC Campaing right now (very fun indeed) and looking at the Dragon advance i see some mistakes (in my view)

may be im missing something here, thats why i write this post.

lets take for example Brass Dragon, why a Brass dragon have Summon Djinn?? or Control Wind? or Control Weather? or Speak with Animals? or Digging Speed. I thught that Dragon had an affinity to an element using my example (Brass Dragon = Fire). So why Brass dragon have Air and Earth related abilities.

this kind of things are all over dragons advance for Why a Silver Dragon has Reverse Gravity?? to Why Blue Dragon its inmune to electricity???

please help
teclis
05-11-04, 12:38 PM Originally posted by Malakiel
this post its a call for help, im running a Dragon PC Campaing right now (very fun indeed) and looking at the Dragon advance i see some mistakes (in my view)

may be im missing something here, thats why i write this post.

lets take for example Brass Dragon, why a Brass dragon have Summon Djinn?? or Control Wind? or Control Weather? or Speak with Animals? or Digging Speed. I thught that Dragon had an affinity to an element using my example (Brass Dragon = Fire). So why Brass dragon have Air and Earth related abilities.

this kind of things are all over dragons advance for Why a Silver Dragon has Reverse Gravity?? to Why Blue Dragon its inmune to electricity???

please help

dragons are not just one element or another. they have multiple themes assigned to them. brass dragons are aparently air and fire. and a burrow speed need not have anything to do with earth afinity. blue dragons are immune to electricity because that is their breath weapon. you just have to remember that the abilities of the various colors of dragons were developed independent of the aristotlian veiw of the elements.
venomandme
05-12-04, 03:17 AM Blue Dragon is better at his electricty which is why it's my favorite dragon even though my DM killed my Cohort well enough abou t that.

Brass dragon is not really all fire it has some abilities thanks to his immunity and breath weapon yet you also need to remind yourself that dragons are almost like magical creatures.

Plus some dragons have different abilities for different perposes like a copper is more athletic so it can climb extremly fast compared to a silver dragon yet a silver dragon is greater in other aspects what ya need to remember is that Dragons have these abilities to defend themslevs not just to help there rider.
Malakiel
05-12-04, 08:48 AM i respect your opinios, but dont you think that having a Elemental Subtype its enought to say that dragons have Elemental Afinity?

besides Blue dragons are supoused to be Earth Dragons Air and Earth are supoused to be enemies. according to WoC

i think, and its just my opinion that the ability of copper dragons to Stone Climb its more that just Athletic its a Spell Like Ability not a Competence Bonus. its magical.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
05-12-04, 09:52 AM They have an affinity with that element, but that doesn't mean they don't get abilities from other elements. The subtypes are more of an afterthought than a defining characteristic

For example, the Blue dragon is earth subtype because it lives beneath the sands, and has a connection to the desert. But much as drifting sand can gather a charge, their breath is electricity. A dragon is always immune to their breath.

As I said, the elemental subtype is an afterthought. The dragons powers, and its thinking, are more about itself than about its element. And if you check the dragon elemental master, they mention that most dragons really have two elements anyway, their elemental affinity, and the element of their breath.
The_Dark_One
05-12-04, 12:51 PM The abilites of the Brass Dragon are probably a result of them living in the desert. The summoning ability may be the result of an ancient pact between the dragons and the Djinn. Make sense?
Mancer
05-12-04, 06:42 PM The most important thing to remember is that dragons aren't elementals. Yes, they all have an elemental subtype, but thats not the same thing. Plus, they're dragons. They can do what they want.
Ancient Baatorian
05-14-04, 09:19 AM Exactly.

*draconic voice*

"AND DON'T YOU PUNY HUMANOIDS FORGET IT!"

:D
Malakiel
05-17-04, 08:35 AM May be they arent elemental but you cant denie that they have atleast a Elemental

afinity every ability even the wrong ones are based on elements or can be simbolic

related to one element. Dragons like anyother criature in D&D "CAN'T" do whatever

they want even gods have rules and they cant go beyond them. I also thought about

adaptation as a big part of Draconic powers after all its a powerfull force, but

even then there are problems for example if Blue Dragon adapted to his enviroment

why it keeps the Air related Breath Weapon. After all if you adapt you do it full

not what u want to adapt. LOL

About Summon Djinn I thought that too, may be some where there is a Pact between Brass

Dragons and Djinn. So i did some research, i even bought the Council of Wyrm to created

my campaing (give me some credit for that) and there is no sign of such Pact.

what will be the problem of making some changes to Dragon system,

i mean to change some NON-history related changes that could make system more accurate.

first change i would make its to change Blue Dragon subtype to Air (instead of Earth)
Derren S.
05-17-04, 08:37 AM Ahhhh, my eyes.

Formatting please!
Hrothgar the Dwarf
05-17-04, 04:41 PM There are elemental dragons, they're called Fire Drakes and are in the Draconomicon I think.

As for evolution, why would it be evolutionally sound for a creature to be so wholly attuned to one environment that it is hindered in other situations? Especially with the movement capabilities of dragons flying full days at a time to cross a continent. Dragons are not elementals. They are dragons. Because they have a subtype, that is the only thing they are allowed to focus on? And out of all things, changing a blue to air? If anything keep it earth and change the breath weapon. but frankly, this may be the first problem I've heard of people wiht the dragons and any changes to them might effect balance. I mean, with that thinking should the Earth dragons even be able to fly? That has to do with Air, same with Fire and Cold. Nothing to do with Air and flying.. so better chop off those wings while you're at it.

Bottom line - Dragons are Dragons. Elementals are Elementals.
Dragons are not Elementals. Remember that.
kliate
05-17-04, 07:30 PM Originally posted by Hrothgar the Dwarf
Bottom line - Dragons are Dragons. Elementals are Elementals.
Dragons are not Elementals. Remember that.

But what if I want to make a half-silver dragon fire elemental?

:angel:
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
05-17-04, 07:54 PM Think of it this way. If you create an electrical elemental savant (Tome and Blood)...is he absolutely required to never ever ever cast an acid spell, ever?

The dragons have a formidable set of abilities, each formulated to their own unique style and environment, and I think making each one a uniformly "earth" creature or "air" creature would be horribly foolish, and cause them to lose a lot of their flavor.

In other words, you can do that if everything just HAS to fit into your little elemental box, but that's your thing, and don't expect many people to agree with you.
Azual
05-18-04, 04:29 PM Originally posted by Malakiel
this post its a call for help, im running a Dragon PC Campaing right now (very fun indeed) and looking at the Dragon advance i see some mistakes (in my view)

may be im missing something here, thats why i write this post.

lets take for example Brass Dragon, why a Brass dragon have Summon Djinn?? or Control Wind? or Control Weather? or Speak with Animals? or Digging Speed. I thught that Dragon had an affinity to an element using my example (Brass Dragon = Fire). So why Brass dragon have Air and Earth related abilities.

this kind of things are all over dragons advance for Why a Silver Dragon has Reverse Gravity?? to Why Blue Dragon its inmune to electricity???

please help

ok.... :embarrass :eek: *choke*

the reason why a brass has that is because it livs ina destert and has adapted to the lack of stuctures for a lair, so itdigs. Djinn are ver arabian nights (desert) control wind and weather and speak are (i think)common abilities among dragons.

a silver dragon has reverse gravoty b/c it commonly likes to send the prey up in the air, leve it helpless, the go in for the kill.

AND FINNALLY BLUE DRAGONS ARE IMMUNE TO ELECTRICITY B/C THEY BREAHTE ELECTRICITY (that was special)
Pystian
05-18-04, 04:43 PM Heh. You said "Dragons are wrong". I dare you to walk up to a Great Wyrm and say that.
Pongolyn
05-18-04, 05:54 PM The world isn't going to fall to pieces because a creature with the earth subtype has an air-type power.

If dragons behaved the way you expected them to, they wouldn't be so powerful.

That goes for just about any monster.
Azual
05-18-04, 05:55 PM Originally posted by Pystian
Heh. You said "Dragons are wrong". I dare you to walk up to a Great Wyrm and say that.

i'll try THAT
(my best forend in the game is a great wyrm gold dragon, we collect a library to gether. he beats me EVERY TIME at trivia)
Malakiel
05-21-04, 08:01 PM i think you are getting this the wrong way... if the world isnt going to fall apart because dragons have those powers why it would fall if dragons have others??? think about it with open mind...

i propouse a variation of Copper Dragon, tell me what do u think.

HD and SIZE: dont change
Speed: 40'100'FlyPoor40'Burrow

instead of Spider Climb over stones they get an ability call 'Stone Climb' at wyrmling age. stone climb: works as spider climb on stone surface and increase land speed +20' on stone surface.

DR: all dragons get the same DR at the same age, because one could expect Earth Dragons to have harder skin I put DR two ages category before any other metallic dragon (Juvenil) DR 5/Magic and increases every two age categories. at Wyrm state he gets 20/Epic instead of 20/Magic.

thats all

did the world fall apart?

P.S. its not like i am destroying D&D, take it cool people.
Pongolyn
05-21-04, 09:36 PM did the world fall apart?

Nope. Kudos for taking initiative and fixing it yourself. ;-)
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
05-23-04, 06:42 PM Of course the world didn't fall apart. you took an earth dragon with an earth breath weapon, and changed the name on one of his abilities.

But others have more of a dual-elemental flavor. The black, for example, with its water subtype (due to living in a swamp) and acid breath, which just fits thematically.

I still argue that you'll be losing a lot of dragons' unique flavor by changing them to single-element creatures.
Rogue1stclass
05-23-04, 07:49 PM A dragon is an elemental roughly the way that a Wizard is an ape.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
05-24-04, 12:50 AM couldn't have said it better
eclipticavatar
05-24-04, 11:18 PM I do hand it to you, you gave me a good laugh.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malakiel 05-11-04, 12:20 PM	this post its a call for help, im running a Dragon PC Campaing right now (very fun indeed) and looking at the Dragon advance i see some mistakes (in my view) may be im missing something here, thats why i write this post. lets take for example Brass Dragon, why a Brass dragon have Summon Djinn?? or Control Wind? or Control Weather? or Speak with Animals? or Digging Speed. I thught that Dragon had an affinity to an element using my example (Brass Dragon = Fire). So why Brass dragon have Air and Earth related abilities. this kind of things are all over dragons advance for Why a Silver Dragon has Reverse Gravity?? to Why Blue Dragon its inmune to electricity??? please help
teclis 05-11-04, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by Malakiel this post its a call for help, im running a Dragon PC Campaing right now (very fun indeed) and looking at the Dragon advance i see some mistakes (in my view) may be im missing something here, thats why i write this post. lets take for example Brass Dragon, why a Brass dragon have Summon Djinn?? or Control Wind? or Control Weather? or Speak with Animals? or Digging Speed. I thught that Dragon had an affinity to an element using my example (Brass Dragon = Fire). So why Brass dragon have Air and Earth related abilities. this kind of things are all over dragons advance for Why a Silver Dragon has Reverse Gravity?? to Why Blue Dragon its inmune to electricity??? please help dragons are not just one element or another. they have multiple themes assigned to them. brass dragons are aparently air and fire. and a burrow speed need not have anything to do with earth afinity. blue dragons are immune to electricity because that is their breath weapon. you just have to remember that the abilities of the various colors of dragons were developed independent of the aristotlian veiw of the elements.
venomandme 05-12-04, 03:17 AM	Blue Dragon is better at his electricty which is why it's my favorite dragon even though my DM killed my Cohort well enough abou t that. Brass dragon is not really all fire it has some abilities thanks to his immunity and breath weapon yet you also need to remind yourself that dragons are almost like magical creatures. Plus some dragons have different abilities for different perposes like a copper is more athletic so it can climb extremly fast compared to a silver dragon yet a silver dragon is greater in other aspects what ya need to remember is that Dragons have these abilities to defend themslevs not just to help there rider.
Malakiel 05-12-04, 08:48 AM	i respect your opinios, but dont you think that having a Elemental Subtype its enought to say that dragons have Elemental Afinity? besides Blue dragons are supoused to be Earth Dragons Air and Earth are supoused to be enemies. according to WoC i think, and its just my opinion that the ability of copper dragons to Stone Climb its more that just Athletic its a Spell Like Ability not a Competence Bonus. its magical.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-12-04, 09:52 AM	They have an affinity with that element, but that doesn't mean they don't get abilities from other elements. The subtypes are more of an afterthought than a defining characteristic For example, the Blue dragon is earth subtype because it lives beneath the sands, and has a connection to the desert. But much as drifting sand can gather a charge, their breath is electricity. A dragon is always immune to their breath. As I said, the elemental subtype is an afterthought. The dragons powers, and its thinking, are more about itself than about its element. And if you check the dragon elemental master, they mention that most dragons really have two elements anyway, their elemental affinity, and the element of their breath.
The_Dark_One 05-12-04, 12:51 PM	The abilites of the Brass Dragon are probably a result of them living in the desert. The summoning ability may be the result of an ancient pact between the dragons and the Djinn. Make sense?
Mancer 05-12-04, 06:42 PM	The most important thing to remember is that dragons aren't elementals. Yes, they all have an elemental subtype, but thats not the same thing. Plus, they're dragons. They can do what they want.
Ancient Baatorian 05-14-04, 09:19 AM	Exactly. draconic voice "AND DON'T YOU PUNY HUMANOIDS FORGET IT!" :D
Malakiel 05-17-04, 08:35 AM	May be they arent elemental but you cant denie that they have atleast a Elemental afinity every ability even the wrong ones are based on elements or can be simbolic related to one element. Dragons like anyother criature in D&D "CAN'T" do whatever they want even gods have rules and they cant go beyond them. I also thought about adaptation as a big part of Draconic powers after all its a powerfull force, but even then there are problems for example if Blue Dragon adapted to his enviroment why it keeps the Air related Breath Weapon. After all if you adapt you do it full not what u want to adapt. LOL About Summon Djinn I thought that too, may be some where there is a Pact between Brass Dragons and Djinn. So i did some research, i even bought the Council of Wyrm to created my campaing (give me some credit for that) and there is no sign of such Pact. what will be the problem of making some changes to Dragon system, i mean to change some NON-history related changes that could make system more accurate. first change i would make its to change Blue Dragon subtype to Air (instead of Earth)
Derren S. 05-17-04, 08:37 AM	Ahhhh, my eyes. Formatting please!
Hrothgar the Dwarf 05-17-04, 04:41 PM	There are elemental dragons, they're called Fire Drakes and are in the Draconomicon I think. As for evolution, why would it be evolutionally sound for a creature to be so wholly attuned to one environment that it is hindered in other situations? Especially with the movement capabilities of dragons flying full days at a time to cross a continent. Dragons are not elementals. They are dragons. Because they have a subtype, that is the only thing they are allowed to focus on? And out of all things, changing a blue to air? If anything keep it earth and change the breath weapon. but frankly, this may be the first problem I've heard of people wiht the dragons and any changes to them might effect balance. I mean, with that thinking should the Earth dragons even be able to fly? That has to do with Air, same with Fire and Cold. Nothing to do with Air and flying.. so better chop off those wings while you're at it. Bottom line - Dragons are Dragons. Elementals are Elementals. Dragons are not Elementals. Remember that.
kliate 05-17-04, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by Hrothgar the Dwarf Bottom line - Dragons are Dragons. Elementals are Elementals. Dragons are not Elementals. Remember that. But what if I want to make a half-silver dragon fire elemental? :angel:
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-17-04, 07:54 PM	Think of it this way. If you create an electrical elemental savant (Tome and Blood)...is he absolutely required to never ever ever cast an acid spell, ever? The dragons have a formidable set of abilities, each formulated to their own unique style and environment, and I think making each one a uniformly "earth" creature or "air" creature would be horribly foolish, and cause them to lose a lot of their flavor. In other words, you can do that if everything just HAS to fit into your little elemental box, but that's your thing, and don't expect many people to agree with you.
Azual 05-18-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Malakiel this post its a call for help, im running a Dragon PC Campaing right now (very fun indeed) and looking at the Dragon advance i see some mistakes (in my view) may be im missing something here, thats why i write this post. lets take for example Brass Dragon, why a Brass dragon have Summon Djinn?? or Control Wind? or Control Weather? or Speak with Animals? or Digging Speed. I thught that Dragon had an affinity to an element using my example (Brass Dragon = Fire). So why Brass dragon have Air and Earth related abilities. this kind of things are all over dragons advance for Why a Silver Dragon has Reverse Gravity?? to Why Blue Dragon its inmune to electricity??? please help ok.... :embarrass :eek: choke the reason why a brass has that is because it livs ina destert and has adapted to the lack of stuctures for a lair, so itdigs. Djinn are ver arabian nights (desert) control wind and weather and speak are (i think)common abilities among dragons. a silver dragon has reverse gravoty b/c it commonly likes to send the prey up in the air, leve it helpless, the go in for the kill. AND FINNALLY BLUE DRAGONS ARE IMMUNE TO ELECTRICITY B/C THEY BREAHTE ELECTRICITY (that was special)
Pystian 05-18-04, 04:43 PM	Heh. You said "Dragons are wrong". I dare you to walk up to a Great Wyrm and say that.
Pongolyn 05-18-04, 05:54 PM	The world isn't going to fall to pieces because a creature with the earth subtype has an air-type power. If dragons behaved the way you expected them to, they wouldn't be so powerful. That goes for just about any monster.
Azual 05-18-04, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by Pystian Heh. You said "Dragons are wrong". I dare you to walk up to a Great Wyrm and say that. i'll try THAT (my best forend in the game is a great wyrm gold dragon, we collect a library to gether. he beats me EVERY TIME at trivia)
Malakiel 05-21-04, 08:01 PM	i think you are getting this the wrong way... if the world isnt going to fall apart because dragons have those powers why it would fall if dragons have others??? think about it with open mind... i propouse a variation of Copper Dragon, tell me what do u think. HD and SIZE: dont change Speed: 40'100'FlyPoor40'Burrow instead of Spider Climb over stones they get an ability call 'Stone Climb' at wyrmling age. stone climb: works as spider climb on stone surface and increase land speed +20' on stone surface. DR: all dragons get the same DR at the same age, because one could expect Earth Dragons to have harder skin I put DR two ages category before any other metallic dragon (Juvenil) DR 5/Magic and increases every two age categories. at Wyrm state he gets 20/Epic instead of 20/Magic. thats all did the world fall apart? P.S. its not like i am destroying D&D, take it cool people.
Pongolyn 05-21-04, 09:36 PM	did the world fall apart? Nope. Kudos for taking initiative and fixing it yourself. ;-)
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-23-04, 06:42 PM	Of course the world didn't fall apart. you took an earth dragon with an earth breath weapon, and changed the name on one of his abilities. But others have more of a dual-elemental flavor. The black, for example, with its water subtype (due to living in a swamp) and acid breath, which just fits thematically. I still argue that you'll be losing a lot of dragons' unique flavor by changing them to single-element creatures.
Rogue1stclass 05-23-04, 07:49 PM	A dragon is an elemental roughly the way that a Wizard is an ape.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-24-04, 12:50 AM	couldn't have said it better
eclipticavatar 05-24-04, 11:18 PM	I do hand it to you, you gave me a good laugh.