Dragons as Wizards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons as Wizards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DudeMan101
07-30-04, 10:54 PM I'm thinking of makign this particular Green dragon have spell casting as an x-level wizard instead of a sorceror. I think it goes mroe with the theme of an evil arcane experimentor of great age unleashing untold horrors from the depths of his vile imagination then does sorceror casting ability.

I figure the only major complication would be the storing of spell books and things. But are there any toher concerns I ought watch out for? Would this raise or lower his CR? ECL? Would simply dropping Sorc equivelent levels for Wizard levels even make any sense?
Ramaloke
07-30-04, 11:15 PM it would raise his CR, and the easiest way to do this is give him virtual levels, gods usually use them there could be a 40 hd outsider with 20 virtual levels in fighter, he has all the abilities of a 20 hit die fighter in addition to his outsider hit dice but I beleive he lacks the hit dice from the fighter, do a search on it to find more info.
Derren S.
07-31-04, 03:13 AM If you just replace the soecerer caster level with wizard then the CR would drop because in combat sorcerer is stronger.

If you add wizard levels, the CR would rise, of course.
Freefall
07-31-04, 03:19 AM If you are talking about a simple trade-in of sorcerer levels for wizard ones, then I would say that it would not really affect its CR. By the rules a 5th level sorcerer should be the same CR as a 5th level wizard, so if you mean something like changing an adult green dragon from casting as a 5th level sorcerer to casting as a 5th level wizard, then the CR probably shouldn't change because by the rules both classes should be about the same CR at the same levels.
Sarig the Genie
07-31-04, 03:36 AM I used a combo for a dragon once.

He had normal spell slots for his sorcerer caster level, and a bit more known spells than he should. But he also had a large spell book he was given by a kind wizard (alright, the dragon ate him) which I let him prepare spell from, trading in a sorcerer spell slot for it. Still no more spell per day than a sorcerer, I bumped up the CR quite a bit ;)

Can you belive my disapointment when the players didn't fight it? ;)
DudeMan101
08-01-04, 11:01 PM Originally posted by Derren S.
If you add wizard levels, the CR would rise, of course.

Yeah, I'm gonna do that to. And when it gets older, the caster level will just add to his wizard levels for purposes of spells per day and such.

See, this dragon isn't going to be like those other chronic procrastanators. Yeah, you have a milenia to do the things you want to, but imagine how much you could accomplish if you acted like you only had a century, as humans do? A frickin lot.

This is gonna be a Young Black Dragon w/ 9 levels in Wizard. Now that's some initiative!

Such a dragon would sure cause some suprises. It may well get 20 levels in Wizard before it reaches Young Adult, plus the levels it gets for being a dragon. Imagine if an Adult Red Dragon decided to steal it's hoard, since most dragons assume that smaller, younger dragons must be weaker then them. It's hoard would be a lot bigger then a normal Young Adult Black dragon.

Red: d00d! y0|_|r |-|0@r|) i5 t3|-| |337!*
Black:7hx
Red: 4|| y0ur |-|04r|) 4r3 |3e|0|\|6 70 /\/\3!
Black: S7F|_| n00b!
<Lower Spell Resistance>
Red: WTF?!?! I p\/\/|\| j00!
<Time Stop>
<Haste>
<Delayed Blast Frostball>
<Delayed Blast Frostball>
<Maximised Delayed Blast Frostball>
<Maximised Delayed Blast Frostball>
<Maximised Delayed Blast Frostball>
<Comet Swarm>
<Comet Swarm>
<End Time Stop>
<Ambient temperature a mile away drops by 8 degrees.>
Red: p\/\/|\|3|)! <Goes unconcious.>
<Maximised Empowered Heightened Ray of Frost>
<Red dies>
Black: n00b.
Derren S.
08-02-04, 02:33 AM You know that its very unlikely that a wizard would have prepared this set of spells? A sorcerer on the other hand can metamagic them on the spot.

Wizard castings only offer advantage for PCs and reoccuring villians. Normal combat encounter benefit more from sorcerer casting except that they would maybe one spell level behind.
DudeMan101
08-03-04, 10:22 PM ok, so that example works better for a Sorc, but the point is that a sufficiently motivated dragon has an edge on all the uninspired ones.
Freefall
08-04-04, 12:59 AM How do you cast 8 spells in 1 Time Stop? And Delayed Blast Fireball is a 7th level spell. I'm kind of assuming that Delayed Blast Frostball would be as well, in which case, maximising it would make it a 10th level spell, and the dragon would need 10th level spell slots.

And I'm sure most Adult Red Dragons know either Resist Energy or Protection from Energy (or both), or maybe have some of those feats or spells from Draconomicon to make them less vulnerable to cold.
Derren S.
08-04-04, 03:38 AM Originally posted by DudeMan101
ok, so that example works better for a Sorc, but the point is that a sufficiently motivated dragon has an edge on all the uninspired ones.

It should rather mean the dragon with caster level 22 has an advantage over the caster level 9 ones.
Daemon Nailo
08-04-04, 07:24 AM u can do one thing...substitute the srcerer levels for wizards level........with this u can make dragon wizards, dragon sorecerer even dragon fighter (the gem dragons are psions just as chromatic and mettalic as sorcerers).........and u can do even make a gold dragon paladin (thats sound funny).........just remenber one thing: don't use any ability thats grant mount/ companion/familiar, dragons sorcerer usually dont have familiars and its gona be weird a dragon with a SPECIAL MOUNT.

Maybe with this u can sustitute the new levels for levels in prestige class (a rogue black dragon with levels in assassin, levels per age)....overpowered...yes, but they are dragons...

a sample example

1 - -
2 - -
3 - -
4 - +1 level in choosen class
5 - +3 level in choosen class
6 - +5 level in choosen class
7 - +7 level in choosen class
8 - +9 level in choosen class
9 - +11 level in choosen class
10 - +13 level in choosen class
11 - +15 level in choosen class
12 - +17 level in choosen class
Eagle Prince
08-04-04, 09:28 PM There is a template I believe in Dragon #313 called Spellhoarding, it converts a dragon's spellcasting to wizard. Its a pretty cool template, I use it quite a bit. It also does more than just convert sorcerer caster levels to wizard, it also lets them scribe their spellbooks onto their scales and most of their dragonhoard is spent doing this (but each scale has a chance of staying intact, and can be used by the PCs as scrolls, so you end up with about the same amount of treasure but most if it is in scrolls).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DudeMan101 07-30-04, 10:54 PM	I'm thinking of makign this particular Green dragon have spell casting as an x-level wizard instead of a sorceror. I think it goes mroe with the theme of an evil arcane experimentor of great age unleashing untold horrors from the depths of his vile imagination then does sorceror casting ability. I figure the only major complication would be the storing of spell books and things. But are there any toher concerns I ought watch out for? Would this raise or lower his CR? ECL? Would simply dropping Sorc equivelent levels for Wizard levels even make any sense?
Ramaloke 07-30-04, 11:15 PM	it would raise his CR, and the easiest way to do this is give him virtual levels, gods usually use them there could be a 40 hd outsider with 20 virtual levels in fighter, he has all the abilities of a 20 hit die fighter in addition to his outsider hit dice but I beleive he lacks the hit dice from the fighter, do a search on it to find more info.
Derren S. 07-31-04, 03:13 AM	If you just replace the soecerer caster level with wizard then the CR would drop because in combat sorcerer is stronger. If you add wizard levels, the CR would rise, of course.
Freefall 07-31-04, 03:19 AM	If you are talking about a simple trade-in of sorcerer levels for wizard ones, then I would say that it would not really affect its CR. By the rules a 5th level sorcerer should be the same CR as a 5th level wizard, so if you mean something like changing an adult green dragon from casting as a 5th level sorcerer to casting as a 5th level wizard, then the CR probably shouldn't change because by the rules both classes should be about the same CR at the same levels.
Sarig the Genie 07-31-04, 03:36 AM	I used a combo for a dragon once. He had normal spell slots for his sorcerer caster level, and a bit more known spells than he should. But he also had a large spell book he was given by a kind wizard (alright, the dragon ate him) which I let him prepare spell from, trading in a sorcerer spell slot for it. Still no more spell per day than a sorcerer, I bumped up the CR quite a bit ;) Can you belive my disapointment when the players didn't fight it? ;)
DudeMan101 08-01-04, 11:01 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. If you add wizard levels, the CR would rise, of course. Yeah, I'm gonna do that to. And when it gets older, the caster level will just add to his wizard levels for purposes of spells per day and such. See, this dragon isn't going to be like those other chronic procrastanators. Yeah, you have a milenia to do the things you want to, but imagine how much you could accomplish if you acted like you only had a century, as humans do? A frickin lot. This is gonna be a Young Black Dragon w/ 9 levels in Wizard. Now that's some initiative! Such a dragon would sure cause some suprises. It may well get 20 levels in Wizard before it reaches Young Adult, plus the levels it gets for being a dragon. Imagine if an Adult Red Dragon decided to steal it's hoard, since most dragons assume that smaller, younger dragons must be weaker then them. It's hoard would be a lot bigger then a normal Young Adult Black dragon. Red: d00d! y0\|_\|r \|-\|0@r\|) i5 t3\|-\| \|337!* Black:7hx Red: 4\|\| y0ur \|-\|04r\|) 4r3 \|3e\|0\|\\|6 70 /\/\3! Black: S7F\|_\| n00b! <Lower Spell Resistance> Red: WTF?!?! I p\/\/\|\\| j00! <Time Stop> <Haste> <Delayed Blast Frostball> <Delayed Blast Frostball> <Maximised Delayed Blast Frostball> <Maximised Delayed Blast Frostball> <Maximised Delayed Blast Frostball> <Comet Swarm> <Comet Swarm> <End Time Stop> <Ambient temperature a mile away drops by 8 degrees.> Red: p\/\/\|\\|3\|)! <Goes unconcious.> <Maximised Empowered Heightened Ray of Frost> <Red dies> Black: n00b.
Derren S. 08-02-04, 02:33 AM	You know that its very unlikely that a wizard would have prepared this set of spells? A sorcerer on the other hand can metamagic them on the spot. Wizard castings only offer advantage for PCs and reoccuring villians. Normal combat encounter benefit more from sorcerer casting except that they would maybe one spell level behind.
DudeMan101 08-03-04, 10:22 PM	ok, so that example works better for a Sorc, but the point is that a sufficiently motivated dragon has an edge on all the uninspired ones.
Freefall 08-04-04, 12:59 AM	How do you cast 8 spells in 1 Time Stop? And Delayed Blast Fireball is a 7th level spell. I'm kind of assuming that Delayed Blast Frostball would be as well, in which case, maximising it would make it a 10th level spell, and the dragon would need 10th level spell slots. And I'm sure most Adult Red Dragons know either Resist Energy or Protection from Energy (or both), or maybe have some of those feats or spells from Draconomicon to make them less vulnerable to cold.
Derren S. 08-04-04, 03:38 AM	Originally posted by DudeMan101 ok, so that example works better for a Sorc, but the point is that a sufficiently motivated dragon has an edge on all the uninspired ones. It should rather mean the dragon with caster level 22 has an advantage over the caster level 9 ones.
Daemon Nailo 08-04-04, 07:24 AM	u can do one thing...substitute the srcerer levels for wizards level........with this u can make dragon wizards, dragon sorecerer even dragon fighter (the gem dragons are psions just as chromatic and mettalic as sorcerers).........and u can do even make a gold dragon paladin (thats sound funny).........just remenber one thing: don't use any ability thats grant mount/ companion/familiar, dragons sorcerer usually dont have familiars and its gona be weird a dragon with a SPECIAL MOUNT. Maybe with this u can sustitute the new levels for levels in prestige class (a rogue black dragon with levels in assassin, levels per age)....overpowered...yes, but they are dragons... a sample example 1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - +1 level in choosen class 5 - +3 level in choosen class 6 - +5 level in choosen class 7 - +7 level in choosen class 8 - +9 level in choosen class 9 - +11 level in choosen class 10 - +13 level in choosen class 11 - +15 level in choosen class 12 - +17 level in choosen class
Eagle Prince 08-04-04, 09:28 PM	There is a template I believe in Dragon #313 called Spellhoarding, it converts a dragon's spellcasting to wizard. Its a pretty cool template, I use it quite a bit. It also does more than just convert sorcerer caster levels to wizard, it also lets them scribe their spellbooks onto their scales and most of their dragonhoard is spent doing this (but each scale has a chance of staying intact, and can be used by the PCs as scrolls, so you end up with about the same amount of treasure but most if it is in scrolls).