| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Scholar_of_Nature03-10-07, 02:22 PM | Dragons are very powerful and fiersome creatures, when a player character faces a dragon, they need to fear it. There is no oh wow, yet another dragon. I've played with several Dungeon Masters and well it just seems that they like to take the name of the game (Dungeons and Dragons) a bit to literal. Why not throw in a demon of some sort, or how about a group of gnolls? Oh a really fun thing to pin them up against is a pack of dire wolves... i don't know... my point is dragon's are overused, am i right? |
| Derren S.03-10-07, 02:26 PM | Probably. Dragons are one of the best know fantasy creatures and thus many use them. Also that the last year was "the year of the dragon" didn't help. |
| Witch03-10-07, 02:31 PM | Dragons are fascinating in a sense. I agree that they should be quite impressive when you meet them in a game, which is often not the case. Unfortunate, in a way. In my game, a player has been begging for a dragon to ride for ages. He's not met one yet, and the campaign has been going on for a few months. Now, when he does meet one, and he manages to convince it to let him ride it, he'll be even more pleased - but he'll not be meeting a dragon until that would be appropriate. Dragons aren't just random encounters, after all. |
| Scholar_of_Nature03-10-07, 02:35 PM | Probably. Dragons are one of the best know fantasy creatures and thus many use them. Also that the last year was "the year of the dragon" didn't help. I agree... poor dragons got screwed... |
| Scholar_of_Nature03-10-07, 02:37 PM | Dragons are fascinating in a sense. I agree that they should be quite impressive when you meet them in a game, which is often not the case. Unfortunate, in a way. In my game, a player has been begging for a dragon to ride for ages. He's not met one yet, and the campaign has been going on for a few months. Now, when he does meet one, and he manages to convince it to let him ride it, he'll be even more pleased - but he'll not be meeting a dragon until that would be appropriate. Dragons aren't just random encounters, after all. Yeah, my players once begged me to let them fight a dragon and they were only level 3. I refused and said that not only would they die, but it was not the time, they didn't have the respect for a dragon yet. I said that players should fear dragons, but in reality, they should respect them enough to run away and hide... |
| Asadeseth03-10-07, 02:52 PM | play age of wyrms LOTS and lots of dragons in that one. |
| Scholar_of_Nature03-10-07, 02:53 PM | Dragons are legendary magical beasts and should not just be flaunted about like a group of goblins or gnolls... |
| Sudnji_cas03-10-07, 04:08 PM | They are overoveroveroveroverused!!!! There is no fear anymore. Every third thing in DnD universe has half-dragon template. All the sorcerers and bards have some dragon blood in there! There shoulden't be that much dragon blood!!!! Whenever WotC is out of ideas they say: "Let's pick random color/metal and make it a dragon". And now there are pseudo dragons. they are smaller so we can put more in one room. Thanks to them dragons are lame!!!:rant: |
| Derren S.03-10-07, 04:30 PM | There is an easy fix for that. Remove the dragons in the MM from your game and use the epic dragons instead (replacing breath weapon and scale color as needed). That way the players might be able at some point to fight a very young dragon but have no chance against an adult. |
| Qube03-10-07, 04:58 PM | IMO, its DM dependant: in our games, dragons have no need for fear aura: we have always get the "oh cr*p, a dragon, run for it" feeling |
| JarionSilverblades03-10-07, 05:21 PM | I agree dragons are over used as Monsters, I’ve been in so many campaigns where the dragon is just basically a monster in a cave. You know the story “townsfolk need help, big dragon demanding gold and food.”. I think dragons are under used as Masterminds and plotting villians. |
| Derren S.03-10-07, 05:31 PM | I agree dragons are over used as Monsters, I’ve been in so many campaigns where the dragon is just basically a monster in a cave. You know the story “townsfolk need help, big dragon demanding gold and food.”. I think dragons are under used as Masterminds and plotting villians. Yes, that is a big problem which sadly WotC also has. Generally everything not in the PHB suffers from the "monster in a cave" syndrom no matter what its mental scores are. |
| Loki_God'o'Chaos03-12-07, 05:40 PM | *smirks deviously* In my campaign worlds, I always tell my players two things as we open the game, one. Dragons exist in two places, Fantasy and the far realms (not the plane, just a title for somewhere far away) and Two, they will not likely encounter one here of anything less than Wyrm status. Im the only DM in my area who uses Dragons, simply because players got tired of, as you all put it, "monster in cave" as the Dragon, I use my dragons (all wyrm or great wyrm) to execute master plans, control huge numbers of ninjas, monsters and other villians, and are the boss at the end of my games. Imho, thats about the only way a dragon should show up in any DnD game, as a boss or venerated leader or some such thing, and raiding its keep should involve getting past its traps, spells, OFFSPRING, students, and sometimes even its mate and the dragon itself....in other words, Dragons have huge hordes, lets make the players work for em, eh guys? |
| malignor03-12-07, 06:39 PM | I disagree completely, at least with my DMs. Back in the day, we had a DM who threw a dragon at us once a month. Now, though, the DMs (myself included) make dragons seem invincible and terrifying in the extreme. We exaggerate every precaution, and avoid a confrontation in their lair (or favorable territory) like the plague. In one campaign, we've seen 2 (in 18 months of gaming) and we only fought one, which was a total nightmare. A white in its own lair is played like something from the Aliens movies, with traps, slides, freezing water, fog-concealed pits, surprise attacks coming out of the walls and floor... I'm amazed the party didn't die. This campaign, we've seen 2 dragons and we've been playing for the last 8 levels without seeing one. One we just plum will NOT mess with, and it's been stalking us for days, eating giants alive in front of us, to show its might. I still don't want to mess with it. Then we met its rival, and we were lucky that this dragon was cocky, and went after the bait (the VoP monk) while we were in ambush behind total cover. |
| Angelflesh03-12-07, 09:10 PM | I never used Dragons often because the idea of a huge lizard that speaks and cast spells sort of rubbed me the wrong way. I brought this up in another thread a while ago. One of the board members, i don't remember his name, but he came up with a great example of what i liked to use my Dragons as. A big cat, like a Jaguar or something similar. I don't want them to be big dumb animals, but cunning and intelligent predators. I used this template recently called "Feral Dragon". The template removes supernatural and spell-like attacks except breath weapons, the ability to cast spells, damage reduction, spell resistance, and supernatural and spell-like qualities. This template also lowers the Cr for the Dragon. I like the template a lot because it allows me to use Dragons as predatory creatures, and a little more often. Don't get me wrong though, in my campaigns, Dragon encounters are few and far between, and i still use unaltered Dragons from time to time also. |
| Derren S.03-13-07, 01:54 AM | Why do you think a predator has to be unintelligent? |
| Angelflesh03-13-07, 02:07 AM | I don't want them to be big dumb animals, but cunning and intelligent predators. Read my post more thoroughly so you don't risk looking like an idiot. :rolleyes: |
| Sudnji_cas03-13-07, 03:59 AM | I used this template recently called "Feral Dragon". The template removes supernatural and spell-like attacks except breath weapons, the ability to cast spells, damage reduction, spell resistance, and supernatural and spell-like qualities. This template also lowers the Cr for the Dragon. I like the template a lot because it allows me to use Dragons as predatory creatures, and a little more often. Don't get me wrong though, in my campaigns, Dragon encounters are few and far between, and i still use unaltered Dragons from time to time also. Could you post that template? It sure sounds better than the classical dragon. |
| malignor03-13-07, 11:48 AM | The whole idea of dragons probably comes from myths of sea monsters, the loch-ness monster and similar things. Dinosaurs flew. Dinosaurs were big. Just imagine an intelligent super-dinosaur, with all the best stuff from all the dinosaurs at once. Flight like a Pterosaur, jaws of a Tyrannosaur and the massive body, long neck and tail of a Diplodocus, and the claws of a Raptor. Then add high intelligence and fire breath. Dragons are pretty much ultra-magical dinosaurs of the D&D world. As for other dragon types, if you want a dragon-like mammalian predators, just make half-dragon dire lions and such. |
| DMDaddy03-13-07, 05:03 PM | I'm not sure if Dragons are overused and not feared by the majority of players and DMs. What I do know is that my players fear such monsters as Demons, Devils, Beholders, and Dragons, especially after I learned how to properly use such monsters. There are so many monsters that can effectively challenge a party, I see no reason why they would ever face more than 4 or so dragons in their entire adventuring career, if even that many. |
| Angelflesh03-13-07, 07:28 PM | The Feral Dragon Template (This is Open Gaming Content) "Feral Dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any true dragon (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A feral dragon uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Armor Class: The feral dragon's natural armor bonus is equal to the bases creature's -2 (minimum +0). If the base creature had no natural armor bonus, this feature of the template causes no change. Special Attacks: The feral dragon loses all the base creature's supernatural and spell-like special attacks except it's breath weapons. It also loses the ability to cast spells. It retains all the base creature's other special attacks. Special Qualities: The feral dragon loses the base creature's damage reduction and spell resistance (if any), and all its supernatural and spell-like qualities the base creature had. Abilities: Change from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex -4 (minimum 1), Con +4, Int -15 (minimum 1), Wis -4 (minimum 1). Skills: Recalculate the feral dragon's skill points for it's racial Hit Dice according to the following formula (6 + new Int modifier) x (HD + 3). Then spend its skill points afresh. The skills named in the descriptive text for the base creature and the true dragon description in the MM are class skills for the feral dragon; all others are cross-class. Feats: A feral dragon has the same number of feats as the base creature does, though they should be chosen with an eye toward which ones are most useful with it's diminished abilities. Challenge Rating: A feral dragon's challenge rating equals its racial Hit Dice divided by 2 or the base creature's CR -4, whichever is greater. Treasure: Double standard. Alignment: Usually neutral, but feral dragons often grow closer to the base creature's alignment as they age and gain Intelligence. Level Adjustment: - |
| Sudnji_cas03-13-07, 07:50 PM | Thanks. |
| Holy_Beholder03-13-07, 10:09 PM | The problem with dragons is that they are so weak. Simply put, they cant deal enough damage. In FUDGE, which I play in addition to D&D (DMing for young children, who like the simplicity) it is somewhat improved. As in, a mighty knight with a magic sword is about equal to a thin skinned fifteen foot dragon. Except without fire breath(or ice, or lightning ect.) So basically, in the HP system, rather than making the dragons tougher, do this. Triple the hit dice. After making modifications, double all the abilities. Now double the natural armor bonus to AC. Now for the evil part, have a big dragon polymorph themselves into a smaller dragon. Give the PC's about twenty tough NPC allies. Have the dragon kill them all. :D |