Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rhuell 01-06-04, 03:00 AM	Looking at Advanced Dragons and ALL dragons with more than 21 HD seem to IGNORE the Epic rules for the Epic Bonus to Base Attack Bonus. ALL dragons follow the Fighter attack bonus progression even beyond 20HD. Dragons with 45 HD have a +45 BAB. Don't believe me? Go See for yourself. Draconomicon, Monster Manual 3.5, Monster Manual II, Epic Level Handbook. ALL of these books have sample dragons. ALL Dragons have +1 BAB for every 1 HD. HOWEVER Dragons base saves DO follow the Epic rules for Saving throw Progression. At 20 HD the Saves do not improve, and they follow the Epic rules from there on out. This doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me. I'm not really contesting it because it makes dragons MUCH more dangerous in Epic levels. However it does raise the questions: 1) How many others noticed it? 2) Has there been an errata changing it? and 3) Why did WotC allow the dragons to be that way?
Tarril Wolfeye 01-06-04, 05:48 AM	Originally posted by Rhuell Looking at Advanced Dragons and ALL dragons with more than 21 HD seem to IGNORE the Epic rules for the Epic Bonus to Base Attack Bonus. ALL dragons follow the Fighter attack bonus progression even beyond 20HD. Dragons with 45 HD have a +45 BAB. Don't believe me? Go See for yourself. Draconomicon, Monster Manual 3.5, Monster Manual II, Epic Level Handbook. ALL of these books have sample dragons. ALL Dragons have +1 BAB for every 1 HD. HOWEVER Dragons base saves DO follow the Epic rules for Saving throw Progression. At 20 HD the Saves do not improve, and they follow the Epic rules from there on out. This doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me. I'm not really contesting it because it makes dragons MUCH more dangerous in Epic levels. However it does raise the questions: 1) How many others noticed it? 2) Has there been an errata changing it? and 3) Why did WotC allow the dragons to be that way? These are racial HD. They don't fall under epic rules. Dragon Saves are all good saves exactly as Epic Saves, so they don't really use the Epic rules.
Snake87 01-06-04, 04:46 PM	It probobly has to do with different balancing issues.
Lord of the Ninth 01-06-04, 06:26 PM	Yeah, so do all the monsters in all editions of the MM (and other monster supplements) that have more than 20 HD. So: 1) Probably a few, but see 2 2) No, nor will there be seeing as how this very issue has been mentioned in several books (like the ELH). It is not an oversight, it was done intentionally. 3) I don't know, but I think it might be mentioned in the ELH. My guess is that they don't want everyone who uses these monsters, or makes their own 21+ HD critters, to need a copy of the ELH (because it's not Core, or 3.5). 'course Epic rules are now in the DMG (if briefly), but it is presented as a varient.
Wilds 01-06-04, 08:36 PM	dragons aren't mortals those rules don't apply to them, that would be like a god being limited in the power it can have at a certain level (i do have the deites book, i don't think that, that is a bad analagy)
Steve Russell 01-07-04, 01:11 AM	I hate it but it's done because many monsters have Hit Dice far, far in excess of their Challenge Rating. Look up the Colossal Monstrous Scorpion. That critter has 40 HD and is meant for CR 12. The rules for creating monsters with a ton of Hit Dice precede the Epic book. The rule as written works better for monsters that are intended for non-epic play. Yet when I do a monster above 20th level I rewrite it and it uses epic bab and saves.
Tenzhi 01-07-04, 01:35 AM	The Epic rules are largely bunk anyway. Best to just set a tolerable ceiling for class advancement and use normal advancement. Any advancement past that should be limited to ascension into the divine ranks of Immortals.
toftof 01-07-04, 06:19 AM	i was surprised to see full BAB progression for prestige class that have obvious epic level requirement. I still don't get the mecanism of it, do or don't i use epic bab or these bab progression for example if i want to build a gold wyrm dragon ascendant...
cwslyclgh 01-07-04, 08:57 PM	dragons do not us the rules for epic attack bonus or save bonues unless they have more then 20 class levels, it is intirley possibe for a dragon with lots of HD to qualify for an epic prestige class before actually having 20 class levels (since monsters can qualify for epic feats and such with out class levels by virture of HD etc.)
Selah 01-07-04, 10:51 PM	Originally posted by Rhuell Looking at Advanced Dragons and ALL dragons with more than 21 HD seem to IGNORE the Epic rules for the Epic Bonus to Base Attack Bonus. ALL dragons follow the Fighter attack bonus progression even beyond 20HD. Dragons with 45 HD have a +45 BAB. Don't believe me? Go See for yourself. Draconomicon, Monster Manual 3.5, Monster Manual II, Epic Level Handbook. ALL of these books have sample dragons. ALL Dragons have +1 BAB for every 1 HD. HOWEVER Dragons base saves DO follow the Epic rules for Saving throw Progression. At 20 HD the Saves do not improve, and they follow the Epic rules from there on out. This doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me. I'm not really contesting it because it makes dragons MUCH more dangerous in Epic levels. However it does raise the questions: 1) How many others noticed it? 2) Has there been an errata changing it? and 3) Why did WotC allow the dragons to be that way? The ELH states quite clearly that Monster Hit Dice and the attached BAB, save, etc progression does not follow the Epic Rules. Its on a sidebar within the first 10 pages (don't have the book on me).
KBAZZ 01-08-04, 01:21 AM	well they dont call the game dugeons and dragons for nothing
Kenkai 01-08-04, 09:27 PM	so 41 HD dragons have 41/36/31/26/21/16/11/1 on a full attack (provided they have at least one class level and can then use simple weapons)? thats messed up hehe.
jagggar 01-08-04, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by Kenkai so 41 HD dragons have 41/36/31/26/21/16/11/1 on a full attack (provided they have at least one class level and can then use simple weapons)? thats messed up hehe. No. I can't remember what the exact number is, but it's like at 4 or 5 attacks that you can't gain any more attacks per round because it's just not right. It's the point at which no more attacks can be fit into the round.
Tenzhi 01-09-04, 12:03 AM	Originally posted by jagggar No. I can't remember what the exact number is, but it's like at 4 or 5 attacks that you can't gain any more attacks per round because it's just not right. It's the point at which no more attacks can be fit into the round. I'm not certain about the rule in 3.5, but in 3.0 there were monsters that exceeded that number of attacks (and I do mean with a weapon/progressive BAB and not natural attack schemes). As I recall, that rule was strictly an Epic Advancement rule.
toftof 01-09-04, 07:42 AM	i thought i 3.5 that if you got more than 21 when adding hit dices and class level you'll go epic... so if I got a dragon with 19 HD and I give him 2 sorcerers levels , I am stepping into the realm of the ELH? am i?
Starspider 01-09-04, 04:11 PM	You can never have more than four iterative attacks. So a dragon with BAB +41 has +41/+36/+31/+26 and that's all. As far as dragons with racial HD and class HD go... I think it's a bit trickier. Basically, you would only worry about epic level saves/BAB modifiers if the class level rises above 21+. I.e. if your dragon becomes a Fighter 21 or Fighter 11/Blackguard 10 or the like, then epic saves/BAB would apply to the class levels. However, a dragon with 19 HD and 2 class levels would qualify for epic feats and the like, since it had 21+ HD. It just wouldn't have the epic save/BAB mods, since those don't apply to monster HD. :D
Willie the Duck 01-10-04, 05:08 PM	Someone please post where it says you can't exceed five iterative attacks, otherwise I'm going to assume your pulling it out of YNW. Dragons don't get iterative attacks, they use natural weapons.
Tenzhi 01-10-04, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by Willie the Duck Someone please post where it says you can't exceed five iterative attacks, otherwise I'm going to assume your pulling it out of YNW. In 3.5 you can't exceed 4 iterative attacks, apparently (the only reason there was a limitation of 4 or 5 previously was due to the UBAB of the Monk which no longer exists in 3.5). For an example of this in action, just flip through the 3.5 MM and look at some of the monster files that use iterative attacks and have over +20 BAB - Angels, for instance. In 3.0 there was no such rule except for characters who advanced into Epic via class levels, as evidenced by selfsame "Angels." (Though one could say that this ruling was retconned by the ELH, but one should keep in mind that the ELH is an optional supplement.)
Togashi Kabara 01-11-04, 12:06 AM	they dont have 5 iterative attacks. they have secondary attacks. for example: a dragon will claw claw bit wing wing tail (6 attacks) but these are not iterative attacks. they are naturaly weapons using the secondary attack rules.
Tenzhi 01-11-04, 12:16 AM	Originally posted by Togashi Kabara they dont have 5 iterative attacks. they have secondary attacks. This is only true if they are using their natural attacks. The iterative attack speculation obviously revolves around a dragon using weapons instead of their natural attack scheme.
Cloud Strife 01-14-04, 05:45 AM	In 3.0 there is a rule that you cannot make more than 4 iterative attacks, I just don't remember where. This was one of the first things I learned of 3.0 rules and it has stuck ever since.
Lord Schpungus 01-14-04, 11:46 PM	Aaagh!! I see this everywhere and I hate it. It clearly states in the Epic Level Handbook, in a sidebar, right near the bit about monsters as PCs, Monsters with ONLY racial hit dice keep increasing their BAB as they gain more. If you so much as have ONE class level, then you stop gaining 'monster' BAB and use the ELH rules instead, even if you gain more racial hit die later. It's right there in the book, people.
thugpoetry 01-15-04, 06:21 PM	The rule concerning a maximum number of iterative attacks is in the Epic Level Handbook, just before the section discussing Epic saves. Please neither assume nor take the tones of angry 8 year olds.
badger3k 01-15-04, 07:44 PM	Using the epic level handbook (3.0) doesn't work 100% with the 3.5 rules. At least, every other book has been changed somewhat, so that probably will be too. Using 3.0 epic rules on a 3/5 creature may not make a good argument. Is there anything in the DMG epic rules that counter/say the same thing? The Draconomicon may show new epic rules, or they may have did that to make dragons tougher than normal critters.
Tenzhi 01-16-04, 01:43 AM	The ELH was optional, anyway, and before it came along there were definite cases of creatures with more than 4-5 iterative attacks in the MM. In 3.5, the creatures that had a gratuitous amount of iterative attacks due to high BAB in the 3.0 MM are now limited to 4 iterative attacks in the 3.5 MM. Given that, it seems that regardless of what it says or doesn't say in the ELH the evidence indicates an apparent limit of 4 iterative attacks in 3.5.
Elgonn 01-16-04, 03:44 PM	Originally posted by Lord Schpungus If you so much as have ONE class level, then you stop gaining 'monster' BAB and use the ELH rules instead, even if you gain more racial hit die later. It's right there in the book, people. Where is the rule that states that if someone has a single non-racial hit die they use the epic rules? The sidebar on page 7 of the ELH which goes over racial hit dice as ignoring the BAB limit doesn't say anything about that at all. Elgonn
Kenkai 01-18-04, 04:12 PM	do iterative attacks count the first one? for example: 16/11/6/1, are the iterative attacks 16/11/6/1, or are the iterative attacks just 11/6/1?