Dragons' Skills, Am I missing something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons' Skills, Am I missing something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Quintessence
03-02-04, 10:43 AM I've been looking over the skill ranks of various dragons in both the Monster Manual and the Draconomicon and they simply don't seem to add up. In the Monster Manual, Dragons are given a short list of class skills and each subrace is further attributed a few extra class skills (usually three) to choose from. Now assuming a dragon doesn't have any class levels and its max ranks in any class skill or cross class skill is determined by its hit dice (like all creatures), and even taking into account ability bonuses, synergy bonuses, feat bonuses and magical item bonuses, most of the example dragons in the Monster Manual and the Draconomicon seem to have far too many skill ranks for their age. I know that there are a few possible hidden bonuses (such as a creature with a swim speed having a +8 bonus on swim checks) but overall the numbers just don't seem to make any sense. Their total skill points are often dozens and dozens of skill points over what they should be. If anyone can help explain this situation I'd apreciate any insight into the matter.

Do all printed monster stat blocks have the same problem?:confused:
Sacred Mesa
03-02-04, 08:47 PM :confused: :confused:

I really dont know what are u talking about. i re-checked skill points from some dragons in Draconomicon and all skill points are correct, second i dont know which version of MM u have, i own MM3.0 & MM3.5 and none of them have skills for dragon, no dragon have explicit skills: swim, jump or whatever.

BY THE WAY... while i was checking on skills i realized that skills points in Draconomicon have no retroactive to Dragon abilitie increase, i thoght that i readed some where that skills point increase while Dragon's inteligence increase because of age.
NorthSaber
03-03-04, 02:50 AM I had the same problem, but assumed the discrepancies were because I don't have the 3.5 MM (and Draconomicon is 3.5 compatible, I believe).
Quintessence
03-03-04, 10:09 AM Sacred Mesa, from the 3.5 SRD:

Skills: All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) x (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)"

Hide, Move Silently, and Swim are considered class skills for black dragons.
Bluff, Hide, and Spellcraft are considered class skills for blue dragons.
Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently are considered class skills for green dragons.
Appraise, Bluff, and Jump are considered class skills for red dragons.
Hide, Move Silently, and Swim are considered class skills for white dragons.
Bluff, Gather Information, and Survival are considered class skills for brass dragons.
Disguise, Swim, and Survival are considered class skills for bronze dragons.
Disguise, Heal, and Swim are considered class skills for gold dragons.
Bluff, Disguise, and Jump are considered class skills for silver dragons.

If we take the skill bonuses from one dragon out of the Draconomicon, say Luminia the Wyrmling Gold Dragon, she should have a total of 88 skill points to distribute with a maximum of 11 ranks for her class skills and 5.5 ranks for her cross-class skills.

Bluff +6
Diplomacy +14
Disguise +10
Escape Artist +8
Intimdidate +4
Jump +19
Knowledge (arcana) +10
Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +10
Listen +10
Search +10
Spot +10
Swim +27

If you subtract Luminia's ability bonuses, synergy bonuses and the +8 to her Swim checks for having a Swim Speed, you get the total ranks assigned to her skills:

Bluff: 8 (cross-class skill)
Diplomacy: 10
Disguise: 8
Escape Artist: 8
Intimdidate: 2
Jump: 32 (cross-class skill)
Knowledge (arcana): 8
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): 8
Listen: 8
Search: 8
Spot: 8
Swim: 16

A total of 124 ranks; 36 more than she should have. She also exceeded her maximum allowable ranks in both Jump (from 11 to 32) and Swim (from 11 to 16).

The other dragons I checked in both the Monster Manual 3.5 and the Draconomicon had similar exagerated skill lists. Can anyone explain this?
Arachest
03-03-04, 12:13 PM Well I can help a little with the extra skill points spent. In 3.0 MM gold dragons get a bonus of 1 jump ranks per hit die
was_fired
03-03-04, 03:23 PM You are fairly close but you forgot that they get a +12 to jump for their 60ft speed (+4 for every 10ft over 30ft). You are right though they did give them too many skillpoints thanks to swim. They also get a +2 synergy bonus to diplomacy since they have over 5 ranks in knowlege nobility.

Bluff: 8 (cross-class skill)
Diplomacy: 8
Disguise: 8
Escape Artist: 8
Intimidate: 2
Jump: 8 (cross-class skill)
Knowledge (arcana): 8
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): 8
Listen: 8
Search: 8
Spot: 8
Swim: 16

= 98

I might be missing a few things which could drop it by 10. If 8 less was spent in swim which would follow the rules for max ranks spent (I might be missing where the extra +8 comes from) and if I missed something else then it adds up.
Quintessence
03-03-04, 04:59 PM You are fairly close but you forgot that they get a +12 to jump for their 60ft speed (+4 for every 10ft over 30ft). You are right though they did give them too many skillpoints thanks to swim. They also get a +2 synergy bonus to diplomacy since they have over 5 ranks in knowlege nobility.

was_fired is right,:embarrass I did miss the bonus to Jump checks due to superior speed. Though I had already deducted the synergy bonus from her Diplomacy score due to her nobility and royalty synergy bonus. Since there aren't any other synergy bonuses to Diplomacy (she doesn't have enough ranks in Bluff to qualify) then her total bonus of +14 is reduced to 10 (+2 Charisma bonus and +2 synergy bonus).

It makes for a total of 100 skill points (still 12 more than normal). Any other hidden bonuses we missed?
was_fired
03-03-04, 05:30 PM Sorry I must have kept it too low when I was fixing a mistake I made (I forgot they only had 4 and not 5 in bluff). It looks like you are right and they over spent. I really do want to know where they got the swim from since I can't find anything in 3.5 for that.
jcw8705
03-03-04, 06:09 PM I plugged the numbers into my character sheet and got the following:

Bluff 4 ranks
Diplomacy 10 ranks (and a +2 from Knowledge: Nobility)
Disguise 8 ranks
Escape Artist 8 ranks
Intimidate 2 ranks
Jump 4 ranks (and 12 from 60' speed)
Knowledge: Arcana 8 ranks
Knowledge: Nobility 8 ranks
Listen 8 ranks
Search 8 ranks
Spot 8 ranks
Swim 16 ranks (and 8 from swim speed)

Total of 92 ranks and should have only 88.
This can be fixed by assigning Alertness instead of Multiattack, or Endurance (which adds 4 to Swim checks to avoid fatigue).

However, the wyrmling gold dragon is still technically limited to no more than 11 ranks in any skill, so I would suggest reducing her Swim score by 5 ranks.

With the 1 rank left over, splurge on something you like.
jcw8705
03-03-04, 06:14 PM I forgot to factor in that Bluff and Jump are technically cross-class skills. Perhaps that is where the major problem is, dragons might should have access to all skills...

Course that's just my perspective on things.
Quintessence
03-03-04, 07:00 PM The gold Wyrling I posted was only one random example from the draconomicon. The other dragon stat blocks that I've taken a look at from both the Draconomicon and the 3.5 Monster Manual seem to have similar unexplained bonuses.

I forgot to factor in that Bluff and Jump are technically cross-class skills. Perhaps that is where the major problem is, dragons might should have access to all skills...

I'm not certain that I'd make all skills available to dragons, though I do find it odd that dragons don't all have Survival (for tracking prey) and Appraise (being as obsessed with treasure as they are) as class-skills. Even if they could buy them all as class-skills, it still wouldn't explain all the discrepancies in their exagerated skill bonuses.
Sacred Mesa
03-03-04, 07:29 PM my dear friend Quintescense.

Taking your own example, i most say:

Luminia have 8HD and Inteligence 14 (2): 6+2=8x11=88 yes?

Bluff +6 (2 Cha 8 Rank CC)
Diplomacy +14 (2 Cha 2 Sinergy K. Royalty 10 Rank)
Disguise +10 (2 Cha 8 Rank)
Escape Artist +8 (8 Rank)
Intimidate +4 (2 Cha 2 Rank)
Jump +19 (3 Str 12 Speed 4 Rank)
K. Arcana +10 (2 Int 8 Rank)
K. Royalty +10 (2 Int 8 Rank)
Listen +10 (2 Wis 8 Rank)
Search +10 (2 Int 8 Rank)
Spot +10 (2 Wis 8 Rank)
Swim +27 (8 Swim Speed 3 Str 8Rank 8) 8 Ranks UNKNOWN

8+10+8+8+2+4+8+8+8+8+8+8=88, yes?

8Rank to Swim that i dont know where they came from but i think i readed some where that some dragons gets a bonus to swim because of their tails.

Regrats
Sacred Mesa
03-03-04, 07:32 PM DOUBLE POST - - SORRY
MajesticMoose
03-03-04, 07:46 PM Originally posted by Sacred Mesa

8Rank to Swim that i dont know where they came from but i think i readed some where that some dragons gets a bonus to swim because of their tails.

Regrats

If the dragon has a swim speed they gain a +8 and can take 10.
Quintessence
03-03-04, 07:49 PM 8Rank to Swim that i dont know where they came from but i think i readed some where that some dragons gets a bonus to swim because of their tails.

If you can remember where you read this please let us know. It might explain a few things. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quintessence 03-02-04, 10:43 AM	I've been looking over the skill ranks of various dragons in both the Monster Manual and the Draconomicon and they simply don't seem to add up. In the Monster Manual, Dragons are given a short list of class skills and each subrace is further attributed a few extra class skills (usually three) to choose from. Now assuming a dragon doesn't have any class levels and its max ranks in any class skill or cross class skill is determined by its hit dice (like all creatures), and even taking into account ability bonuses, synergy bonuses, feat bonuses and magical item bonuses, most of the example dragons in the Monster Manual and the Draconomicon seem to have far too many skill ranks for their age. I know that there are a few possible hidden bonuses (such as a creature with a swim speed having a +8 bonus on swim checks) but overall the numbers just don't seem to make any sense. Their total skill points are often dozens and dozens of skill points over what they should be. If anyone can help explain this situation I'd apreciate any insight into the matter. Do all printed monster stat blocks have the same problem?:confused:
Sacred Mesa 03-02-04, 08:47 PM	:confused: :confused: I really dont know what are u talking about. i re-checked skill points from some dragons in Draconomicon and all skill points are correct, second i dont know which version of MM u have, i own MM3.0 & MM3.5 and none of them have skills for dragon, no dragon have explicit skills: swim, jump or whatever. BY THE WAY... while i was checking on skills i realized that skills points in Draconomicon have no retroactive to Dragon abilitie increase, i thoght that i readed some where that skills point increase while Dragon's inteligence increase because of age.
NorthSaber 03-03-04, 02:50 AM	I had the same problem, but assumed the discrepancies were because I don't have the 3.5 MM (and Draconomicon is 3.5 compatible, I believe).
Quintessence 03-03-04, 10:09 AM	Sacred Mesa, from the 3.5 SRD: Skills: All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) x (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)" Hide, Move Silently, and Swim are considered class skills for black dragons. Bluff, Hide, and Spellcraft are considered class skills for blue dragons. Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently are considered class skills for green dragons. Appraise, Bluff, and Jump are considered class skills for red dragons. Hide, Move Silently, and Swim are considered class skills for white dragons. Bluff, Gather Information, and Survival are considered class skills for brass dragons. Disguise, Swim, and Survival are considered class skills for bronze dragons. Disguise, Heal, and Swim are considered class skills for gold dragons. Bluff, Disguise, and Jump are considered class skills for silver dragons. If we take the skill bonuses from one dragon out of the Draconomicon, say Luminia the Wyrmling Gold Dragon, she should have a total of 88 skill points to distribute with a maximum of 11 ranks for her class skills and 5.5 ranks for her cross-class skills. Bluff +6 Diplomacy +14 Disguise +10 Escape Artist +8 Intimdidate +4 Jump +19 Knowledge (arcana) +10 Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +10 Listen +10 Search +10 Spot +10 Swim +27 If you subtract Luminia's ability bonuses, synergy bonuses and the +8 to her Swim checks for having a Swim Speed, you get the total ranks assigned to her skills: Bluff: 8 (cross-class skill) Diplomacy: 10 Disguise: 8 Escape Artist: 8 Intimdidate: 2 Jump: 32 (cross-class skill) Knowledge (arcana): 8 Knowledge (nobility and royalty): 8 Listen: 8 Search: 8 Spot: 8 Swim: 16 A total of 124 ranks; 36 more than she should have. She also exceeded her maximum allowable ranks in both Jump (from 11 to 32) and Swim (from 11 to 16). The other dragons I checked in both the Monster Manual 3.5 and the Draconomicon had similar exagerated skill lists. Can anyone explain this?
Arachest 03-03-04, 12:13 PM	Well I can help a little with the extra skill points spent. In 3.0 MM gold dragons get a bonus of 1 jump ranks per hit die
was_fired 03-03-04, 03:23 PM	You are fairly close but you forgot that they get a +12 to jump for their 60ft speed (+4 for every 10ft over 30ft). You are right though they did give them too many skillpoints thanks to swim. They also get a +2 synergy bonus to diplomacy since they have over 5 ranks in knowlege nobility. Bluff: 8 (cross-class skill) Diplomacy: 8 Disguise: 8 Escape Artist: 8 Intimidate: 2 Jump: 8 (cross-class skill) Knowledge (arcana): 8 Knowledge (nobility and royalty): 8 Listen: 8 Search: 8 Spot: 8 Swim: 16 = 98 I might be missing a few things which could drop it by 10. If 8 less was spent in swim which would follow the rules for max ranks spent (I might be missing where the extra +8 comes from) and if I missed something else then it adds up.
Quintessence 03-03-04, 04:59 PM	You are fairly close but you forgot that they get a +12 to jump for their 60ft speed (+4 for every 10ft over 30ft). You are right though they did give them too many skillpoints thanks to swim. They also get a +2 synergy bonus to diplomacy since they have over 5 ranks in knowlege nobility. was_fired is right,:embarrass I did miss the bonus to Jump checks due to superior speed. Though I had already deducted the synergy bonus from her Diplomacy score due to her nobility and royalty synergy bonus. Since there aren't any other synergy bonuses to Diplomacy (she doesn't have enough ranks in Bluff to qualify) then her total bonus of +14 is reduced to 10 (+2 Charisma bonus and +2 synergy bonus). It makes for a total of 100 skill points (still 12 more than normal). Any other hidden bonuses we missed?
was_fired 03-03-04, 05:30 PM	Sorry I must have kept it too low when I was fixing a mistake I made (I forgot they only had 4 and not 5 in bluff). It looks like you are right and they over spent. I really do want to know where they got the swim from since I can't find anything in 3.5 for that.
jcw8705 03-03-04, 06:09 PM	I plugged the numbers into my character sheet and got the following: Bluff 4 ranks Diplomacy 10 ranks (and a +2 from Knowledge: Nobility) Disguise 8 ranks Escape Artist 8 ranks Intimidate 2 ranks Jump 4 ranks (and 12 from 60' speed) Knowledge: Arcana 8 ranks Knowledge: Nobility 8 ranks Listen 8 ranks Search 8 ranks Spot 8 ranks Swim 16 ranks (and 8 from swim speed) Total of 92 ranks and should have only 88. This can be fixed by assigning Alertness instead of Multiattack, or Endurance (which adds 4 to Swim checks to avoid fatigue). However, the wyrmling gold dragon is still technically limited to no more than 11 ranks in any skill, so I would suggest reducing her Swim score by 5 ranks. With the 1 rank left over, splurge on something you like.
jcw8705 03-03-04, 06:14 PM	I forgot to factor in that Bluff and Jump are technically cross-class skills. Perhaps that is where the major problem is, dragons might should have access to all skills... Course that's just my perspective on things.
Quintessence 03-03-04, 07:00 PM	The gold Wyrling I posted was only one random example from the draconomicon. The other dragon stat blocks that I've taken a look at from both the Draconomicon and the 3.5 Monster Manual seem to have similar unexplained bonuses. I forgot to factor in that Bluff and Jump are technically cross-class skills. Perhaps that is where the major problem is, dragons might should have access to all skills... I'm not certain that I'd make all skills available to dragons, though I do find it odd that dragons don't all have Survival (for tracking prey) and Appraise (being as obsessed with treasure as they are) as class-skills. Even if they could buy them all as class-skills, it still wouldn't explain all the discrepancies in their exagerated skill bonuses.
Sacred Mesa 03-03-04, 07:29 PM	my dear friend Quintescense. Taking your own example, i most say: Luminia have 8HD and Inteligence 14 (2): 6+2=8x11=88 yes? Bluff +6 (2 Cha 8 Rank CC) Diplomacy +14 (2 Cha 2 Sinergy K. Royalty 10 Rank) Disguise +10 (2 Cha 8 Rank) Escape Artist +8 (8 Rank) Intimidate +4 (2 Cha 2 Rank) Jump +19 (3 Str 12 Speed 4 Rank) K. Arcana +10 (2 Int 8 Rank) K. Royalty +10 (2 Int 8 Rank) Listen +10 (2 Wis 8 Rank) Search +10 (2 Int 8 Rank) Spot +10 (2 Wis 8 Rank) Swim +27 (8 Swim Speed 3 Str 8Rank 8) 8 Ranks UNKNOWN 8+10+8+8+2+4+8+8+8+8+8+8=88, yes? 8Rank to Swim that i dont know where they came from but i think i readed some where that some dragons gets a bonus to swim because of their tails. Regrats
Sacred Mesa 03-03-04, 07:32 PM	DOUBLE POST - - SORRY
MajesticMoose 03-03-04, 07:46 PM	Originally posted by Sacred Mesa 8Rank to Swim that i dont know where they came from but i think i readed some where that some dragons gets a bonus to swim because of their tails. Regrats If the dragon has a swim speed they gain a +8 and can take 10.
Quintessence 03-03-04, 07:49 PM	8Rank to Swim that i dont know where they came from but i think i readed some where that some dragons gets a bonus to swim because of their tails. If you can remember where you read this please let us know. It might explain a few things. :)