Dragons with class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons with class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gadren
08-27-07, 05:39 PM Is there anything that should keep dragons from taking class levels? All their advancement just seems to come from getting older, regardless of whether they are out slaying enemies or just spend all that time sitting on their butts, which make me wonder why more dragons don't have class levels...

Is there anything preventing a gold dragon from taking a couple levels in paladin, or a copper dragon from taking some in bard? Maybe a white dragon with a temper could become a barbarian, or red dragon might even take levels in black guard?
Meep326
08-27-07, 05:53 PM Is there anything preventing a gold dragon from taking a couple levels in paladin, or a copper dragon from taking some in bard? Maybe a white dragon with a temper could become a barbarian, or red dragon might even take levels in black guard?
Nope, other than the fact that it takes away their racial progression of their spells/breath weapon and other abilities. Even the Dragon Prestige classes in Draconomicon aren't as good as a going straight dragon (the whole Class levels =/= age thing gets in the way of this). One thing to keep in mind if you're making a BBEG or it's good equivelint (BBGG?) is that they lose their full BAB progression once they take a class level after 20 hit dice.
Talisman
08-27-07, 06:04 PM Dragon rogue. :devil:
Naderion
08-27-07, 06:17 PM The Morume-Dragons in Faerūn are all (or most of them) also sorcerers. In fact, it's a good question why not every dragon has a lot of class levels.
There's nothing that would stop one from giving them class levels, but I would suggest to just give them three to six levels, else they would become much more powerful than all the other dragons with no class levels.
runestar
08-27-07, 09:03 PM Nothing, just that they end up sucking for their cr, though it is great for adding flavour. Cr-wise, the benefits of class lvs just pales to the raw power afforded by more dragon HD, especially when epic progression rules start kicking in.

If it is as an NPC you don't expect the PCs to take on, go wild. If it is an end boss, watch the cr increase carefully. Most of the time, the increase tend to be overinflated, though a few exceptions might be made for non-associated classes.
Gadren
08-28-07, 01:14 AM Nothing, just that they end up sucking for their cr, though it is great for adding flavour. Cr-wise, the benefits of class lvs just pales to the raw power afforded by more dragon HD, especially when epic progression rules start kicking in.

If it is as an NPC you don't expect the PCs to take on, go wild. If it is an end boss, watch the cr increase carefully. Most of the time, the increase tend to be overinflated, though a few exceptions might be made for non-associated classes.

I was thinking a couple levels in classes from the Book of Nine Swords could work out pretty well, since the dragon HD count towards what maneuvers they can learn.

And I think a red dragon blackguard would just be cool. (Just like two levels.)
Borris
08-28-07, 02:17 AM The main reason why most dragons don't gain class levels is that they don't need to. While a human fighter has to train constantly to improve himself (and will even get worse from aging), a dragon merely had to wait and survive a few decades to get bigger, stronger, smarter, tougher, and even gain sorcerer spellcasting. And since a wise dragon, who wants to increase its hoard but has very long-term plans, will only face threats it is absolutely certain to overcome (and since it has such horrible level adjustment), it won't be gaining much experience from those encounters.
Derren S.
08-28-07, 02:28 AM The reason most dragons have no class levels is that WotC is too lazy to always stat classed dragons. They rather put a preformatted MM dragon into their books with a random (most of the time very weak) spell/feat selection.

There are some classes which give dragons a huge power boost like monk. And the dragon PRCs in the draconomicon are always a power boost.

Beware that depending on when the dragon takes the class level he might have to follow the epic progression of that class. (The dragon PRCs are an exception. You always get the normal progression for them no matter your HD).
runestar
08-28-07, 06:30 AM I was thinking a couple levels in classes from the Book of Nine Swords could work out pretty well, since the dragon HD count towards what maneuvers they can learn.

Then in that case, I think the cr may end up being an underestimate. I recall someone at the CO boards mentioning how initiator lvs do not mesh well with racial HD. To be more specific, it breaks down when used with monster npcs who tend to have a lot of racial HD for their cr, since its design assumes a 1-for-1 scaling rate, as is the case for PCs.

Still, 1 class lv is always useful for tacking on the elite stat array for free.:D
Gadren
08-31-07, 11:38 AM Then in that case, I think the cr may end up being an underestimate.

Well, true dragons (in my experience) are very powerful for their CR, more so than most other monsters (not including the crap in MMII).

Still, 1 class lv is always useful for tacking on the elite stat array for free.:D

Yeah, that too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 08-27-07, 05:39 PM	Is there anything that should keep dragons from taking class levels? All their advancement just seems to come from getting older, regardless of whether they are out slaying enemies or just spend all that time sitting on their butts, which make me wonder why more dragons don't have class levels... Is there anything preventing a gold dragon from taking a couple levels in paladin, or a copper dragon from taking some in bard? Maybe a white dragon with a temper could become a barbarian, or red dragon might even take levels in black guard?
Meep326 08-27-07, 05:53 PM	Is there anything preventing a gold dragon from taking a couple levels in paladin, or a copper dragon from taking some in bard? Maybe a white dragon with a temper could become a barbarian, or red dragon might even take levels in black guard? Nope, other than the fact that it takes away their racial progression of their spells/breath weapon and other abilities. Even the Dragon Prestige classes in Draconomicon aren't as good as a going straight dragon (the whole Class levels =/= age thing gets in the way of this). One thing to keep in mind if you're making a BBEG or it's good equivelint (BBGG?) is that they lose their full BAB progression once they take a class level after 20 hit dice.
Talisman 08-27-07, 06:04 PM	Dragon rogue. :devil:
Naderion 08-27-07, 06:17 PM	The Morume-Dragons in Faerūn are all (or most of them) also sorcerers. In fact, it's a good question why not every dragon has a lot of class levels. There's nothing that would stop one from giving them class levels, but I would suggest to just give them three to six levels, else they would become much more powerful than all the other dragons with no class levels.
runestar 08-27-07, 09:03 PM	Nothing, just that they end up sucking for their cr, though it is great for adding flavour. Cr-wise, the benefits of class lvs just pales to the raw power afforded by more dragon HD, especially when epic progression rules start kicking in. If it is as an NPC you don't expect the PCs to take on, go wild. If it is an end boss, watch the cr increase carefully. Most of the time, the increase tend to be overinflated, though a few exceptions might be made for non-associated classes.
Gadren 08-28-07, 01:14 AM	Nothing, just that they end up sucking for their cr, though it is great for adding flavour. Cr-wise, the benefits of class lvs just pales to the raw power afforded by more dragon HD, especially when epic progression rules start kicking in. If it is as an NPC you don't expect the PCs to take on, go wild. If it is an end boss, watch the cr increase carefully. Most of the time, the increase tend to be overinflated, though a few exceptions might be made for non-associated classes. I was thinking a couple levels in classes from the Book of Nine Swords could work out pretty well, since the dragon HD count towards what maneuvers they can learn. And I think a red dragon blackguard would just be cool. (Just like two levels.)
Borris 08-28-07, 02:17 AM	The main reason why most dragons don't gain class levels is that they don't need to. While a human fighter has to train constantly to improve himself (and will even get worse from aging), a dragon merely had to wait and survive a few decades to get bigger, stronger, smarter, tougher, and even gain sorcerer spellcasting. And since a wise dragon, who wants to increase its hoard but has very long-term plans, will only face threats it is absolutely certain to overcome (and since it has such horrible level adjustment), it won't be gaining much experience from those encounters.
Derren S. 08-28-07, 02:28 AM	The reason most dragons have no class levels is that WotC is too lazy to always stat classed dragons. They rather put a preformatted MM dragon into their books with a random (most of the time very weak) spell/feat selection. There are some classes which give dragons a huge power boost like monk. And the dragon PRCs in the draconomicon are always a power boost. Beware that depending on when the dragon takes the class level he might have to follow the epic progression of that class. (The dragon PRCs are an exception. You always get the normal progression for them no matter your HD).
runestar 08-28-07, 06:30 AM	I was thinking a couple levels in classes from the Book of Nine Swords could work out pretty well, since the dragon HD count towards what maneuvers they can learn. Then in that case, I think the cr may end up being an underestimate. I recall someone at the CO boards mentioning how initiator lvs do not mesh well with racial HD. To be more specific, it breaks down when used with monster npcs who tend to have a lot of racial HD for their cr, since its design assumes a 1-for-1 scaling rate, as is the case for PCs. Still, 1 class lv is always useful for tacking on the elite stat array for free.:D
Gadren 08-31-07, 11:38 AM	Then in that case, I think the cr may end up being an underestimate. Well, true dragons (in my experience) are very powerful for their CR, more so than most other monsters (not including the crap in MMII). Still, 1 class lv is always useful for tacking on the elite stat array for free.:D Yeah, that too.