Dragons-cr is wack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons-cr is wack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Daydreamer
03-28-07, 03:28 PM A situation came up in one of my games were a pc was defeated by a dragon, that he essentially got himself stuck facing one on one. Mostly due to poor decisions on his behalf and the cunning of the dragon.

Now the dragon was listed as cr 16-old black dragon.

The pc is a 19th level figher, and he had his butt handed to him. NO he is not an idiot he has magic items for location, and he has good ranged weapons. But i found as i could use the dragons abilities to simply counteract anything he could do.

Dragons seem to be much stronger than there Cr would indicate. Of course given what happens at epic levels it kind of goes out the window for dragons over cr 20, but pre 20th level pcs dont match up well. Theoretically a 16 level character would have a 50/50 shot with a dragon. But any Cr 16 dragon in the monster manuel would wipe the floor not only with any 16 level character in 1on1, but with any other cr 16 monster in the book for that matter.

What say you.
Chrome_Golem
03-28-07, 03:41 PM I think it was just a bad match-up. I do believe CR is intended to reflect a moderate challenge to a party of 4 members, not an individual reflection. Though the level 19 character faced a CR 16 Dragon perhaps he/she was lacking something that a 4 member party of lower level has, versatility. An individual 19th level character can't pour a potion down his own throat or cast a healing spell on himself when he/she is in the negatives, or create a flank, or shield himself from an attack, or get the equivilant of 4 characters worth of spells and attacks, etc. A single target allows the Dragon (an admittedly versatile creature if done correctly) to focus all it's powers on a single target rather than having to spread out it's resources.
Derren S.
03-28-07, 03:41 PM Dragons are on the high end of the CR scale and the CR assumes that the players know which dragon they face and can prepare. When encountering the dragon unprepared the CR is higher.

Also CR is made for a group of 4 people. A single character, especially a fighter will have troubles fighting against a dragon alone.
In your example the dragon could have simply used its size to grappel/crush the fighter. Without Freedom of Movement he has no chance.

Sadly, because of all the power creep and anti dragon feats/spells/equipment, a prepared party can now kill a dragon of any power easily.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-28-07, 05:49 PM Dragons are intentionally under-CRed, so that they can be suitably amazing encounters.
HolyGrenadeFrenzy
03-29-07, 12:59 AM First of all these guys are correct about the CR ratings being for 4 characters and the chance to prep. too. If the player is at fault as much as you say then it was all still fair. If the dragon had erred so would anyone complain? Or would the cunning of the players be just deserts for the said dragon.

Complainers should face at High levels a Dragon of any type with the Paragon Template from the Epic Level Handbook and the Monster of Legend from the MM2....Those two templates on a Dragon are phenomenal and will show what a truely powerful one of a kind dragon can do....P.S. Do it only if you plan to kill the characters because you want to start a new campaign or you want the dragon to capture them or something like that. If you players were to beat such a creature it reflects poorly on the DM and not so much well on the players because the point of such a creature is that it shouldn't be killed but instead beaten on a temporary case basis.
ank
03-29-07, 09:06 PM P.S. Do it only if you plan to kill the characters because you want to start a new campaign or you want the dragon to capture them or something like that. If you players were to beat such a creature it reflects poorly on the DM and not so much well on the players because the point of such a creature is that it shouldn't be killed but instead beaten on a temporary case basis.

There are easier ways to kill charecters, if you want to cheat a little and use a 3.0 source. Take the Multi-headed template, using the variant with re-growable head, started with an L, and apply it to a half-black red dragon. This boosts the dragons CR by 6 (4 for multiheaded if you add one head, and 2 for half-dragon) and now PC's have a dilema. The dragons body is impenetrable, the only way to kill it is to sever all the heads. The heads will automatically regrow quickly, like a hydra, unless fire or acid damage is dealt to them. A half-black red dragon has immunity to both fire and acid. I'll let your mind figure out what this means for the party :schemes:
CantripN
03-30-07, 04:46 AM Won't it just grant Fast Healing to the body? I've found that simply hitting the body till it dies tends to work... It's no Regeneration.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daydreamer 03-28-07, 03:28 PM	A situation came up in one of my games were a pc was defeated by a dragon, that he essentially got himself stuck facing one on one. Mostly due to poor decisions on his behalf and the cunning of the dragon. Now the dragon was listed as cr 16-old black dragon. The pc is a 19th level figher, and he had his butt handed to him. NO he is not an idiot he has magic items for location, and he has good ranged weapons. But i found as i could use the dragons abilities to simply counteract anything he could do. Dragons seem to be much stronger than there Cr would indicate. Of course given what happens at epic levels it kind of goes out the window for dragons over cr 20, but pre 20th level pcs dont match up well. Theoretically a 16 level character would have a 50/50 shot with a dragon. But any Cr 16 dragon in the monster manuel would wipe the floor not only with any 16 level character in 1on1, but with any other cr 16 monster in the book for that matter. What say you.
Chrome_Golem 03-28-07, 03:41 PM	I think it was just a bad match-up. I do believe CR is intended to reflect a moderate challenge to a party of 4 members, not an individual reflection. Though the level 19 character faced a CR 16 Dragon perhaps he/she was lacking something that a 4 member party of lower level has, versatility. An individual 19th level character can't pour a potion down his own throat or cast a healing spell on himself when he/she is in the negatives, or create a flank, or shield himself from an attack, or get the equivilant of 4 characters worth of spells and attacks, etc. A single target allows the Dragon (an admittedly versatile creature if done correctly) to focus all it's powers on a single target rather than having to spread out it's resources.
Derren S. 03-28-07, 03:41 PM	Dragons are on the high end of the CR scale and the CR assumes that the players know which dragon they face and can prepare. When encountering the dragon unprepared the CR is higher. Also CR is made for a group of 4 people. A single character, especially a fighter will have troubles fighting against a dragon alone. In your example the dragon could have simply used its size to grappel/crush the fighter. Without Freedom of Movement he has no chance. Sadly, because of all the power creep and anti dragon feats/spells/equipment, a prepared party can now kill a dragon of any power easily.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-28-07, 05:49 PM	Dragons are intentionally under-CRed, so that they can be suitably amazing encounters.
HolyGrenadeFrenzy 03-29-07, 12:59 AM	First of all these guys are correct about the CR ratings being for 4 characters and the chance to prep. too. If the player is at fault as much as you say then it was all still fair. If the dragon had erred so would anyone complain? Or would the cunning of the players be just deserts for the said dragon. Complainers should face at High levels a Dragon of any type with the Paragon Template from the Epic Level Handbook and the Monster of Legend from the MM2....Those two templates on a Dragon are phenomenal and will show what a truely powerful one of a kind dragon can do....P.S. Do it only if you plan to kill the characters because you want to start a new campaign or you want the dragon to capture them or something like that. If you players were to beat such a creature it reflects poorly on the DM and not so much well on the players because the point of such a creature is that it shouldn't be killed but instead beaten on a temporary case basis.
ank 03-29-07, 09:06 PM	P.S. Do it only if you plan to kill the characters because you want to start a new campaign or you want the dragon to capture them or something like that. If you players were to beat such a creature it reflects poorly on the DM and not so much well on the players because the point of such a creature is that it shouldn't be killed but instead beaten on a temporary case basis. There are easier ways to kill charecters, if you want to cheat a little and use a 3.0 source. Take the Multi-headed template, using the variant with re-growable head, started with an L, and apply it to a half-black red dragon. This boosts the dragons CR by 6 (4 for multiheaded if you add one head, and 2 for half-dragon) and now PC's have a dilema. The dragons body is impenetrable, the only way to kill it is to sever all the heads. The heads will automatically regrow quickly, like a hydra, unless fire or acid damage is dealt to them. A half-black red dragon has immunity to both fire and acid. I'll let your mind figure out what this means for the party :schemes:
CantripN 03-30-07, 04:46 AM	Won't it just grant Fast Healing to the body? I've found that simply hitting the body till it dies tends to work... It's no Regeneration.