Drowned in MMIII - CR 8 - What the? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Drowned in MMIII - CR 8 - What the? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Herremann the Wise
12-09-04, 05:36 PM Hello everyone,

I pitted a few "drowned" from MMIII against my players (average party level 17) and as I thought, it was quite a challenge for them - the sorcerer went down followed by the favored soul. Only quick action from the others saved those characters lives - the chance for multiple character deaths and even a TPK was very real.

Is the CR 8 correct, a typo or a big mistake? Is there any errata out there?

A creature that has:
- A 30' Miasma-like aura (DC 10 Con check or straight to 0hp and unconscious, and then by the third round in the aura, death)
- 20HD Undead - Immunity to criticals, mind affects and difficult to turn, over 100hp
- Hide check of +20
seems a little overpowered for CR 8.

Three of these in an underground watery tunnel was enough to give four 17th level (average) characters absolute kittens.

Can you help me at least work out a more suitable CR in terms of experience - a level is at stake which will mean advancing to 9th level spells for the sorcerer and favoured soul. Therefore, it is a big decision for me and them that I would prefer to have an official flavor to.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Templar_Prime
12-10-04, 07:49 PM You think drowned are bad? Try Bonedrinkers.

CRs in MM3 and Libris Mortis are off. I would recomend - at the very least - increasing them by 2.
Luminosity
12-11-04, 01:51 PM Doesn't Water Breathing gimp them severely?
Herremann the Wise
12-11-04, 07:08 PM Doesn't Water Breathing gimp them severely?

It does. However, that's one third level spell the average party is not going to have directly on hand. If they could prepare for a drowned, fine - the CR is perhaps not so bad - although 230hp to ZERO because you rolled a 5 on your con check (and you have a con of 18) is very very tough, regardless of level.

The other issue is whether the characters actually know they are being drowned or choked. Drowned have 20HD and therefore to garner knowledge about them is pretty difficult (Knowledge [Religion] DC 30). It might be reasonable to say that a party would not automatically know that a water breathing would work. A poor check or a lack of knowledge might best be represented as - you think you are being choked/suffocated to death, you can't breathe.

I have decided to upgrade the CR to 14 for that particular encounter. This may be a little bit knee-jerk but dissolving hp's that quickly deserves respect - and reward.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Imruphel
12-11-04, 09:23 PM I think you've just highlighted one of the major drawbacks of the WotC monster design philosophy as first revealed in MMII. Basically it goes like this:

1. Developer reminds designers that there are monster design rules that must be used.
2. Designer goes away and designs a monster according to those rules.
3. Developer discovers that too much monsters are bunched around each CR and needs a wider spread... um, because he must have a wider spread!
4. Developer starts a whole stack of arbitrary changes to HD and ability scores to boost the CR of certain creatures.
5. Developer forgets to update certain numbers while this process is being done. Anyway, nobody cares about maths, do they?
6. Developer finalises his marvellous work. He is very proud about how "creation" could beat any similar creation in MMI. His giants are much more powerful for their size, as are his undead and, frankly, everything else.
7. Developer makes a note to ensure all prestige classes in the next publication are similarly boosted in power to cope with these far more dangerous monsters.
8. Designer goes home crying when his carefully designed creation is revealed with all its design flaws and dreading the next round of feedback on the internet.

Please note that this eight step process does not mention the editor, however, I'm sure that they're in there, somewhere... or, at least, that's what I'm told.

While I'm making my point with a combination of cynicism and sarcasm, the truth is that "power creep" is a real problem with MMII and MMIII. Too many monsters are simply bolstered to meet a certain CR (and, in the case of the drowned, I don't think the developers got it right) instead of being designed according to the rules.
Dartanel
12-11-04, 10:04 PM The main problem I have with that particular monster is,
how does a creature with a visible 30' emanation hide at all?
Slagger the Chuul
12-12-04, 04:12 AM A creature that has:
- A 30' Miasma-like aura (DC 10 Con check or straight to 0hp and unconscious, and then by the third round in the aura, death)
- 20HD Undead - Immunity to criticals, mind affects and difficult to turn, over 100hp
- Hide check of +20
seems a little overpowered for CR 8.

The biggest point is not to fight them in closed spaces. They're most vulnerable to ranged attacks, particularly damage spells, since they have no special protection against magic. In a melee fight they can be nearly impossible, since the combination of drowning, high hit points, and fast healing 5 make them extremely resilient. It's interesting to note that because their drowning aura is an emanation (rather than a spread), and any form of total cover will block it (including a correctly deployed tower shield). Summoned creatures can also be useful if you have something that is amphibious, or doesn't need to breathe at all.

Many of the creatures in the Monster Manual 3 were designed to be tough against particular kinds of tactics. With this in mind, I assume the drowned was designed to be especially tough (and perhaps a little too tough) against melee opponents.
Luminosity
12-13-04, 10:37 AM The biggest point is not to fight them in closed spaces. They're most vulnerable to ranged attacks, particularly damage spells, since they have no special protection against magic.

That's why I make mine Spellwarped.

/muhuhahaha
Kiirnodel
12-13-04, 12:02 PM The biggest point is not to fight them in closed spaces. They're most vulnerable to ranged attacks, particularly damage spells, since they have no special protection against magic. In a melee fight they can be nearly impossible, since the combination of drowning, high hit points, and fast healing 5 make them extremely resilient. It's interesting to note that because their drowning aura is an emanation (rather than a spread), and any form of total cover will block it (including a correctly deployed tower shield). Summoned creatures can also be useful if you have something that is amphibious, or doesn't need to breathe at all.

Many of the creatures in the Monster Manual 3 were designed to be tough against particular kinds of tactics. With this in mind, I assume the drowned was designed to be especially tough (and perhaps a little too tough) against melee opponents.

Exactly, I playtested the Drowned against two parties after I saw that CR
These were actually test runs but the players didn't know that, so they still clung tenaciously to their characters
TPK:
Dwarf Fighter 8
Half Elf Fighter4/Rogue4
Warforged Fighter2/Paladin6
Human Ranger8
Shifter Monk 8

Annihilated the Poor lil Drowned:
Elf Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1
Half Orc Warlock 8
Elf Transmuter 6/Rogue2
Human Wizard5/Elemental Savant(Air)3

Less people in the second group but...here's how combat went
Dwarf Fighter Power Attacks and uses powerful charge. Impressive damage.
Fighter/Rogue realizes fent won't work and charges with his glaive.
Paladin has shield of Faith precast and now casts divine favor
Ranger desperately tries to fire at it from afar
Monk charges so he can flurry the following round.
Drowned Annihilates the Dwarf dropping him to near half hp.

Next round.
Monk fails con check by rolling a 4, he's terrified that he went from 57 to 0 without the drowned making an action...
Dwarf continues to beat the drowned to death....nad is actually doing surprisingly well...
Elf decided to keep his distance but can not withdraw in time...and is dropped from 47 to 0.
The Warforged being immune to suffocation decides that saving the others is more dire...and helps the elf.
The Ranger keeps up his ranged assault but the dwarf is providing cover, so one attack misses (out of three)
The Drowned almost drops the dwarf.

Next Round.
Shifter starts dying, Elf starts to recover but gets dropped to 0 again to to its con check...
Paladin orders the ranger to pick up the elf nearby to get him out of the aura and he'll pick up the shifter...
The Dwarf continues his assault, he's really trying now...(all of them think their character is about to die)
Drowned brings dwarf to -5.

Next round.
Elf gets dropped to neg 1 and Shifter drowns.
Warforged still picks up the shifter and starts to carry him and the ranger starts to go after the elf but wants to avoid the aura and retreats

blah blah...Drowned harriers the much slower warforged and eventually beats him to death, the ranger escapes...

Then I tell them its just a CR I wanted to test and get bombarded by mountian dew bottles...(empty)

The Second party, ah...this was hilarious
Wait! Knowledge Religion check, (Transmuter)
"NO ONE GET NEAR IT!"
Warlock uses Fell Flight and Begins an Assault of Eldritch Spears.
Spellsword begins to feel sad he can't charge as normal but instead lobs a fireball at him.
Elemental Savant throws an orb of electricity at the drowned
Transmuter Hastes the party and the move actions that all of them take move them back sixty feet.
The Drowned TRIES to close with the spellcasting enemies.

Next Round:
Warlock continues to blast his enemy from 120 feet in the air.
Spellsword uses Web, Transmuter uses grease. Elemental Savant...throws another orb of electricity...
The Drowned is feeling very silly right now

Another blast or two of spells...No damage dealt to the party, but they had to use thier big guns, the only person who was ready for another fight was the warlock. Either way, the CR is off :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Herremann the Wise 12-09-04, 05:36 PM	Hello everyone, I pitted a few "drowned" from MMIII against my players (average party level 17) and as I thought, it was quite a challenge for them - the sorcerer went down followed by the favored soul. Only quick action from the others saved those characters lives - the chance for multiple character deaths and even a TPK was very real. Is the CR 8 correct, a typo or a big mistake? Is there any errata out there? A creature that has: - A 30' Miasma-like aura (DC 10 Con check or straight to 0hp and unconscious, and then by the third round in the aura, death) - 20HD Undead - Immunity to criticals, mind affects and difficult to turn, over 100hp - Hide check of +20 seems a little overpowered for CR 8. Three of these in an underground watery tunnel was enough to give four 17th level (average) characters absolute kittens. Can you help me at least work out a more suitable CR in terms of experience - a level is at stake which will mean advancing to 9th level spells for the sorcerer and favoured soul. Therefore, it is a big decision for me and them that I would prefer to have an official flavor to. Best Regards Herremann the Wise
Templar_Prime 12-10-04, 07:49 PM	You think drowned are bad? Try Bonedrinkers. CRs in MM3 and Libris Mortis are off. I would recomend - at the very least - increasing them by 2.
Luminosity 12-11-04, 01:51 PM	Doesn't Water Breathing gimp them severely?
Herremann the Wise 12-11-04, 07:08 PM	Doesn't Water Breathing gimp them severely? It does. However, that's one third level spell the average party is not going to have directly on hand. If they could prepare for a drowned, fine - the CR is perhaps not so bad - although 230hp to ZERO because you rolled a 5 on your con check (and you have a con of 18) is very very tough, regardless of level. The other issue is whether the characters actually know they are being drowned or choked. Drowned have 20HD and therefore to garner knowledge about them is pretty difficult (Knowledge [Religion] DC 30). It might be reasonable to say that a party would not automatically know that a water breathing would work. A poor check or a lack of knowledge might best be represented as - you think you are being choked/suffocated to death, you can't breathe. I have decided to upgrade the CR to 14 for that particular encounter. This may be a little bit knee-jerk but dissolving hp's that quickly deserves respect - and reward. Best Regards Herremann the Wise
Imruphel 12-11-04, 09:23 PM	I think you've just highlighted one of the major drawbacks of the WotC monster design philosophy as first revealed in MMII. Basically it goes like this: 1. Developer reminds designers that there are monster design rules that must be used. 2. Designer goes away and designs a monster according to those rules. 3. Developer discovers that too much monsters are bunched around each CR and needs a wider spread... um, because he must have a wider spread! 4. Developer starts a whole stack of arbitrary changes to HD and ability scores to boost the CR of certain creatures. 5. Developer forgets to update certain numbers while this process is being done. Anyway, nobody cares about maths, do they? 6. Developer finalises his marvellous work. He is very proud about how "creation" could beat any similar creation in MMI. His giants are much more powerful for their size, as are his undead and, frankly, everything else. 7. Developer makes a note to ensure all prestige classes in the next publication are similarly boosted in power to cope with these far more dangerous monsters. 8. Designer goes home crying when his carefully designed creation is revealed with all its design flaws and dreading the next round of feedback on the internet. Please note that this eight step process does not mention the editor, however, I'm sure that they're in there, somewhere... or, at least, that's what I'm told. While I'm making my point with a combination of cynicism and sarcasm, the truth is that "power creep" is a real problem with MMII and MMIII. Too many monsters are simply bolstered to meet a certain CR (and, in the case of the drowned, I don't think the developers got it right) instead of being designed according to the rules.
Dartanel 12-11-04, 10:04 PM	The main problem I have with that particular monster is, how does a creature with a visible 30' emanation hide at all?
Slagger the Chuul 12-12-04, 04:12 AM	A creature that has: - A 30' Miasma-like aura (DC 10 Con check or straight to 0hp and unconscious, and then by the third round in the aura, death) - 20HD Undead - Immunity to criticals, mind affects and difficult to turn, over 100hp - Hide check of +20 seems a little overpowered for CR 8. The biggest point is not to fight them in closed spaces. They're most vulnerable to ranged attacks, particularly damage spells, since they have no special protection against magic. In a melee fight they can be nearly impossible, since the combination of drowning, high hit points, and fast healing 5 make them extremely resilient. It's interesting to note that because their drowning aura is an emanation (rather than a spread), and any form of total cover will block it (including a correctly deployed tower shield). Summoned creatures can also be useful if you have something that is amphibious, or doesn't need to breathe at all. Many of the creatures in the Monster Manual 3 were designed to be tough against particular kinds of tactics. With this in mind, I assume the drowned was designed to be especially tough (and perhaps a little too tough) against melee opponents.
Luminosity 12-13-04, 10:37 AM	The biggest point is not to fight them in closed spaces. They're most vulnerable to ranged attacks, particularly damage spells, since they have no special protection against magic. That's why I make mine Spellwarped. /muhuhahaha
Kiirnodel 12-13-04, 12:02 PM	The biggest point is not to fight them in closed spaces. They're most vulnerable to ranged attacks, particularly damage spells, since they have no special protection against magic. In a melee fight they can be nearly impossible, since the combination of drowning, high hit points, and fast healing 5 make them extremely resilient. It's interesting to note that because their drowning aura is an emanation (rather than a spread), and any form of total cover will block it (including a correctly deployed tower shield). Summoned creatures can also be useful if you have something that is amphibious, or doesn't need to breathe at all. Many of the creatures in the Monster Manual 3 were designed to be tough against particular kinds of tactics. With this in mind, I assume the drowned was designed to be especially tough (and perhaps a little too tough) against melee opponents. Exactly, I playtested the Drowned against two parties after I saw that CR These were actually test runs but the players didn't know that, so they still clung tenaciously to their characters TPK: Dwarf Fighter 8 Half Elf Fighter4/Rogue4 Warforged Fighter2/Paladin6 Human Ranger8 Shifter Monk 8 Annihilated the Poor lil Drowned: Elf Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1 Half Orc Warlock 8 Elf Transmuter 6/Rogue2 Human Wizard5/Elemental Savant(Air)3 Less people in the second group but...here's how combat went Dwarf Fighter Power Attacks and uses powerful charge. Impressive damage. Fighter/Rogue realizes fent won't work and charges with his glaive. Paladin has shield of Faith precast and now casts divine favor Ranger desperately tries to fire at it from afar Monk charges so he can flurry the following round. Drowned Annihilates the Dwarf dropping him to near half hp. Next round. Monk fails con check by rolling a 4, he's terrified that he went from 57 to 0 without the drowned making an action... Dwarf continues to beat the drowned to death....nad is actually doing surprisingly well... Elf decided to keep his distance but can not withdraw in time...and is dropped from 47 to 0. The Warforged being immune to suffocation decides that saving the others is more dire...and helps the elf. The Ranger keeps up his ranged assault but the dwarf is providing cover, so one attack misses (out of three) The Drowned almost drops the dwarf. Next Round. Shifter starts dying, Elf starts to recover but gets dropped to 0 again to to its con check... Paladin orders the ranger to pick up the elf nearby to get him out of the aura and he'll pick up the shifter... The Dwarf continues his assault, he's really trying now...(all of them think their character is about to die) Drowned brings dwarf to -5. Next round. Elf gets dropped to neg 1 and Shifter drowns. Warforged still picks up the shifter and starts to carry him and the ranger starts to go after the elf but wants to avoid the aura and retreats blah blah...Drowned harriers the much slower warforged and eventually beats him to death, the ranger escapes... Then I tell them its just a CR I wanted to test and get bombarded by mountian dew bottles...(empty) The Second party, ah...this was hilarious Wait! Knowledge Religion check, (Transmuter) "NO ONE GET NEAR IT!" Warlock uses Fell Flight and Begins an Assault of Eldritch Spears. Spellsword begins to feel sad he can't charge as normal but instead lobs a fireball at him. Elemental Savant throws an orb of electricity at the drowned Transmuter Hastes the party and the move actions that all of them take move them back sixty feet. The Drowned TRIES to close with the spellcasting enemies. Next Round: Warlock continues to blast his enemy from 120 feet in the air. Spellsword uses Web, Transmuter uses grease. Elemental Savant...throws another orb of electricity... The Drowned is feeling very silly right now Another blast or two of spells...No damage dealt to the party, but they had to use thier big guns, the only person who was ready for another fight was the warlock. Either way, the CR is off :D