Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mythSSK 01-24-05, 05:48 PM	Last night I set my players up in a battle with a Drowned (MMIII, pg 46) and it was almost a TPK. I had been wanting to use this creatures for the past few weeks but I was afraid that its Drowning Aura ability would be too powerful. I used it straight out of the book, no tweaks or templates or levels or anything. With a +20 to Hide and Move Silently, it managed to get off an ambush without any difficulty. There were five characters: Human - 6 Swashbuckler / 1 Hexblade / 5 Annointed Knight (or something like that, I forget the exact levels) Human - 6 Ex-Paladin / 6 Ex-Blackguard Half-Gold-Dragon - 5 Samurai Human - 8 Sorcerer Human - 3 Monk / 3 Cleric / 3 Exalted Fist (again, I forget the exact levels) so there were two ECL 12 characters, an ECL 9, and and two ECL 8. Should make mincemeat out of a CR 8 monster, right? Swashbuckler and Monk both go down in the first round of combat (Swashbuckler only just missed his check, and the Monk rolled a nat 1). The Ex-Paladin barely manages to drag the swashbuckler out of range of the aura, and the sorceress manages to save the monk. Third round, the Half-Dragon goes down, and the Swashbucker and Monk both go down to -1. The Ex-Paladin manages to kill the Drowned with a little support from the sorceress. Twice during the encounter the Ex-Paladin only JUST made his save. If he hadn't made it on either of those rolls, he, the swashbuckler, the monk, and the half-dragon would have died, with the sorceress only surviving if she managed to escape. I realise there were a few bad rolls here and there, but that's to be expected. Should a CR 8 creature nearly have TPK'ed a party with an average level of 10? Do WotC even playtest their monsters to see if their monsters CR's are accurate?
kliate 01-24-05, 06:27 PM	Let's take a moment to consider one of the Drowned's counterparts - the Bodak. BODAK Medium Undead (Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 9d12 (58 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares) Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+5 Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d8+1) Full Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d8+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Death gaze Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity, resistance to acid 10 and fire 10, undead traits, vulnerability to sunlight Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +7 Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 12 Skills: Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Spot +11 Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (slam) Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4) Challenge Rating: 8 Treasure: None Alignment: Always chaotic evil Advancement: 10–13 HD (Medium); 14–27 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — Bodaks are the undead remnants of humanoids who have been destroyed by the touch of absolute evil. A bodak retains fleeting memories of its past life and can speak Common (or some other humanoid language). COMBAT Death Gaze (Su): Death, range 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. Humanoids who die from this attack are transformed into bodaks 24 hours later. The save DC is Charisma-based. Vulnerability to Sunlight (Ex): Bodaks loathe sunlight, for its merest touch burns their impure flesh. Each round of exposure to the direct rays of the sun deals 1 point of damage to the creature. A Bodak could walk up to a party, gaze at the mage or cleric and kill them on the spot. It would take a resurrection to bring them back (death effect), and within 24 hours (otherwise you have another Bodak to deal with). Bodaks are sneaky, just like the drowned - although the drowned are sneakier. Bodaks Death Gaze DC is much lower - but more lethal to fail the save. Conclusion: The Drowned are significantly more powerful than a Bodak, and I suspect that their CR was understated (probably makes more sense around 9-10).
was_fired 01-24-05, 06:56 PM	The drowned as written are wrong for nearly any CR. If you alter drowning aura to either count as being underwater or to speed up the rate at which you drown THEN it is all right. Otherwise it is just plain broken. Consider a 20th level wizard will likely have a starting con score of 10 then with a +6 con item and +3 or so from inherent or a higher starting score you end up with 19 (+4). Drowning aura has a 25% chance of taking a 20th level wizard out of the fight. Even a fighter with 25 (+7) con ends up with a 10% chance of dropping in the first round. A creature with the ability to force an ability check or die is broken plain and simple.
argorond 01-25-05, 05:53 AM	Sounds familiar, tho we were only 3 guys and lower lvl but luckily we have good stats and nobody died, tho was too close for that. mythSKK that why miasma is so good spell vs wizards, a) they cannot cast spells, b) throwing con is hard job .
turalisj 01-25-05, 07:35 AM	drowned are awsome, though i normally would use them as bosses since they are so good at what they do..... :D
General_Ridley 01-25-05, 12:13 PM	personally find them broken as hell.
Ogre4Hire 01-25-05, 01:09 PM	Which is why they belong in the MM3 with all their other way-too-overpowered friends. There's a reason my D&D group calls the MM3 "Tome of Horrors." :yuck:
Wayward Son 01-26-05, 09:10 AM	There was another thread on this topic a few weeks back, in this forum. You might want to look it up.
HomebrewedMonster 01-26-05, 11:55 AM	If it didn't have the unholy toughness ability I would say that its balanced for the CR. The reason being it wouldn't have huge hit points and the ranged fighters/spell casters can blast it back to being just plain dead. edit: boy was I wrong, it only gains 20 hit points, yea the 20d12 is a little powerful.
Dunelord 01-26-05, 12:30 PM	Sounds familiar, tho we were only 3 guys and lower lvl but luckily we have good stats and nobody died, tho was too close for that. mythSKK that why miasma is so good spell vs wizards, a) they cannot cast spells, b) throwing con is hard job . They errataed Miasma. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a or http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CompDiv_Errata09102004.zip to download it directly.
mythSSK 01-30-05, 05:32 AM	The errata for MMIII bumped the Drowned's CR up to 9. I feel slightly more at ease.
was_fired 01-30-05, 06:04 AM	I stand by the fact that the aura is still broken for any CR. Save or die effects should not use ability checks. The use of these mechanics breaks these creatures when you use them against higher level parties. Consider a 15th level wizard with 16 con (very possible after magic). He has a 30% chance of being dropped by in one round a minion who shouldn't even be a challenge for him. The second round, 35% chance. After three rounds there is only a 27.3% chance that this wizard is still even alive. So yes, this creature is flat out broken.