Duergar as PC in 3.5 MM1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Duergar as PC in 3.5 MM1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowfax7
01-28-04, 01:47 PM Under the description of Duergar in the 3.5 MM1, they were given a +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities in addition to the traits of the Hill Dwarf (which is the regular Dwarf).

Is this a typo ?? or did they mean to give 3.5 Duergar this add'l bonus for a total of +4 racial bonus to saves against spells and spell-like abilities.

From the 3.5 SRD (as well as 3.5 MM1):

Duergar Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the hill dwarf traits, except where noted.
— –4 Charisma instead of –2.
—Darkvision out to 120 feet.
—Immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison. This trait replaces the hill dwarf ’s +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
— +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
—Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.
—Light Sensitivity: Duergar are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
— +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
— +1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
—Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven, Undercommon.
Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Terran. This trait replaces the hill dwarf ’s automatic and bonus languages.
—Favored Class: Fighter.
—Level adjustment +1
—Unlike other dwarves, duergar do not have weapon familiarity with the dwarven waraxe and dwarven urgrosh.
The duergar warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
Challenge Rating: Duergar with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level. Duergar with levels in PC classes have a CR equal to their character level +1.

AND

Dwarf Traits (Ex): Dwarves possess the following racial traits.
— +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
—Medium size.
—A dwarf ’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
—Darkvision out to to 60 feet.
—Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes.
—Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
—Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
— +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.
— +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.
— +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including halforcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears).
— +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).
— +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
— +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
—Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon.
—Favored Class: Fighter.
The dwarf warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
01-28-04, 02:42 PM I think its most likely a typo, mostly because of the line:
—Immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison. This trait replaces the hill dwarf ’s +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
I think if the +2 bonus added to give a +4 bonus, it would have said a +4 bonus, and that it replaces the old +2 bonus.
Shadowfax7
01-28-04, 03:52 PM I believe so as well . .. however look at the Drow traits from the 3.5 MM1 and 3.5 SRD:

Drow Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. . .

— +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.

AND the Elf traits:

—Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

It seems Drow get both bonuses, but even though the bonuses are different, all enchantment spells that have saves, have Will saves. Thus they are the same bonus.
cwslyclgh
01-28-04, 04:57 PM raical bonuses, being named bonuses should overlap and not stack shouldn't they?
Edymnion
01-28-04, 06:32 PM Originally posted by cwslyclgh
raical bonuses, being named bonuses should overlap and not stack shouldn't they? Ding ding ding, I think we have a winner.
He's right. Both are listed as Racial bonuses, and to my knowledge, racial bonuses are not on the list of same named bonuses that stack.
Shadowfax7
01-28-04, 07:09 PM Yes, racial bonuses for the same thing don't stack. So definitely even if the bonuses for the Duergar are NOT a typo, they wouldn't stack. That solves that.

However, now that I have brought up the Drow example in the prior post, another question comes to mind . . .

What about the Drow's racial bonuses ?? They are for different things. Would they stack or not ??

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 01-28-04, 01:47 PM	Under the description of Duergar in the 3.5 MM1, they were given a +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities in addition to the traits of the Hill Dwarf (which is the regular Dwarf). Is this a typo ?? or did they mean to give 3.5 Duergar this add'l bonus for a total of +4 racial bonus to saves against spells and spell-like abilities. From the 3.5 SRD (as well as 3.5 MM1): Duergar Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the hill dwarf traits, except where noted. — –4 Charisma instead of –2. —Darkvision out to 120 feet. —Immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison. This trait replaces the hill dwarf ’s +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. — +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities. —Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries. —Light Sensitivity: Duergar are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. — +1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. —Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Terran. This trait replaces the hill dwarf ’s automatic and bonus languages. —Favored Class: Fighter. —Level adjustment +1 —Unlike other dwarves, duergar do not have weapon familiarity with the dwarven waraxe and dwarven urgrosh. The duergar warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8. Challenge Rating: Duergar with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level. Duergar with levels in PC classes have a CR equal to their character level +1. AND Dwarf Traits (Ex): Dwarves possess the following racial traits. — +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. —Medium size. —A dwarf ’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. —Darkvision out to to 60 feet. —Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes. —Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. —Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). — +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. — +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. — +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including halforcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). — +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants). — +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. — +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. —Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Fighter. The dwarf warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 01-28-04, 02:42 PM	I think its most likely a typo, mostly because of the line: —Immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison. This trait replaces the hill dwarf ’s +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. I think if the +2 bonus added to give a +4 bonus, it would have said a +4 bonus, and that it replaces the old +2 bonus.
Shadowfax7 01-28-04, 03:52 PM	I believe so as well . .. however look at the Drow traits from the 3.5 MM1 and 3.5 SRD: Drow Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. . . — +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities. AND the Elf traits: —Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. It seems Drow get both bonuses, but even though the bonuses are different, all enchantment spells that have saves, have Will saves. Thus they are the same bonus.
cwslyclgh 01-28-04, 04:57 PM	raical bonuses, being named bonuses should overlap and not stack shouldn't they?
Edymnion 01-28-04, 06:32 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh raical bonuses, being named bonuses should overlap and not stack shouldn't they? Ding ding ding, I think we have a winner. He's right. Both are listed as Racial bonuses, and to my knowledge, racial bonuses are not on the list of same named bonuses that stack.
Shadowfax7 01-28-04, 07:09 PM	Yes, racial bonuses for the same thing don't stack. So definitely even if the bonuses for the Duergar are NOT a typo, they wouldn't stack. That solves that. However, now that I have brought up the Drow example in the prior post, another question comes to mind . . . What about the Drow's racial bonuses ?? They are for different things. Would they stack or not ??