Post/Author/DateTime	Post
savant_warlord13 11-07-05, 09:09 PM	Why do dolphins have an intelligence score of only 2? :confused:
WolfHati 11-07-05, 09:15 PM	Because higher than 2 would imply that they're sentient.
sandskimmer 11-07-05, 09:42 PM	All aniamls have an int of 1 or 2 by the rules. 3 or more indicates self-awareness, which we don't know whether or not dolphins posses this. It's just a game mechanic. Don't get caught up with it. Play your dolphins as intelligently as you like. It's your game afterall...
rampant 11-08-05, 02:08 AM	Be as realistic as you want we all know they really have an average score of 24 they just keep us around so if aliens ever come to wipe out the planet's sentient life we can all get wiped out while the beakfaces play dumb animal while ploting some horrific revnge for the loss of their favorite pets
savant_warlord13 11-08-05, 06:40 AM	Because higher than 2 would imply that they're sentient. They are sentient
RavinRay 11-08-05, 06:43 AM	They are sentient In the real-world, no; no matter how intelligent they behave. In 2e D&D they seemed to be (in fact they had a good alignment, AFAIK). Just awaken them and let your aventi druid keep 'em as an animal companion. :P
SilverFoxKnows 11-08-05, 11:24 AM	It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much — the wheel, New York, wars and so on — while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man — for precisely the same reasons. Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (1979)
oxybe 11-08-05, 11:47 AM	i do not believe that dolphins are not sentient, though this depends on one's definition of sentience. anything alive is sentient to an extent, it has a mind and can think for itself (though instincts have a greater precedence over brains in most animals). for me, "real" sentience comes from being able to display intelligence (building, litterature, art & science) other then just picking out the right colors or shapes. the reason language isn't there as a criteria is that any animal that can make sound has a "language" of it's own, it's how language can be interpreted that makes the diffrence (that is why litterature is there and not language. to have litterature, your language must be highly developped as to have it's own grammar and an alphabet [borrowed or otherwise (think french/english. same alphabet, diffrent grammar) ] ). dolphins are group animals that have shown they can act in pacts with great efficiency and look cute. they have good memory, but have yet to prove they can actually meet my 4 personal requirements for real sentience. one could say that virtually any living creature that isn't a plant is sentient. all the races one can play in D&D are sentient. they have proven they can build things (buildings, weapons or equipment). they have litterature (be it pictographic or with letters, an elven romance novel or stories of the quickclaw lizardfolk tribe written down so they aren't forgotten).they have art (alright, this is relative to the race. elves see a tree as art, while dwarves see it as kindling. i believe if you can create something that your people call beautiful, it is art. unless your a dwarf, then it also has to be pratical :P) every race has it's own science of sorts (be it creating fire with twigs, a special process for dying clothing/armor or their own alchemical glue). in real life, humans are the only real sentient animal on this planet, with monkeys/apes and dolphins coming in second. even then, there is a HUGE gap between us and the other "intelligent" animals. again this is a personal opinion, so if you don't agree, feel free to ignore me or leave a few comments.
Wilds 11-08-05, 12:41 PM	onyl reason humans concider themselves to be the only "sentient" race is because we have no way of commucinating with other races coherently. Though dolphins do have significatly higher intelligence than most other animals. One fact that I can not state on teh boards almost proves that fact. Something alongs the lines of reproduction and how only humans and dolphins do it for fun.
oxybe 11-08-05, 01:52 PM	humans fight for fun, practice and territory, while many predatory animals do the same. by stating this, have i proven that many predetors are sentient? mating for fun isn't sentience, it's fun. when playing catch with your dog and he fetches a frisbee, is that your dog proving sentience? no, the dog just likes running after the frisbee. he knows you'll throw it so he brings it back. that's not sentience. the cat that goes on your lap to get it's belly scratched, is that sentience? no. either he likes it (which he probly does) or he's ichy. again, this all boils down to one's interpretation of sentience. i can communicate with people who don't understand english or french, in other ways then speaking. there is clearly a defined intelligence barrier between humans and dolphins. any sentient race will leave proof of it's sentience, be it willingly (like when humans send those pictographic disks in space) or accidental (cave paintings or ancient roman architecture, it proves that there was some intelligent animal there). i have yet to see anything that proves that dolphins have an intelligence greater then that of an animal (although i will concede that it is a smart animal, it is still far less sentient then any "intelligent" race in D&D).
Thrasher 11-08-05, 02:06 PM	I agree. I think dolphins are senitent. they are the master race that came off the ship khyber when it crashed into eberron. Then they opened portals to our world and created atlantis and then started out race, hehe ::twitch:: :pint: :looloo: :crazy:
Vestigial_Thumb 11-08-05, 02:07 PM	Dolphins, as smart as they are, aren't really sentient. There's a difference between sentience and intelligence.
Callahan 11-08-05, 02:15 PM	It’s all simpler then you guys make it out to be. The intelligence of a creature in D&D is NOT a sign of self awareness or many of the core requirements of sentient thought. In D&D it is simply a measurement of their abilities to perform certain tasks. EG: >The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game. -can dolphins speak any language? No, they can not. Whether they can communicate through signals and other means is irrelevant since there are spells in D&D that allow communication with creatures that have an animal intelligence. > The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.) -do dolphins have extra skills though heightened learning ability? Not any more then any animal has. Aside from a perform skill that they learn from human trainers, there’s really no other skill that they can learn, and again it’s no better then a bear, dog or lion from the zoo. > Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability. -Is a dolphin any better at these skills then a normal animal? No, none of these skills are even usable by the dolphin. Except for Search of course, but I believe this skill is generally useful for anyone looking for secret doors and such, again, something a dolphin would not find useful. > A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. -a dolphin casting mage spells? I don’t think that’s something that very likely. Sorcery maybe, but definitely no spell books and pointy hats with stars on them for a dolphin. How would he even turn the page?
GFC_Seracule 11-08-05, 02:27 PM	double post
GFC_Seracule 11-08-05, 02:28 PM	Yeah, you've got it about right. As for me, I will reserve judgement on whether dolphins are sentient or not. (and the dolphin wizard would probably use one of the alternate spellbooks, like tatoos or something, it was either in CA or some issue of Dragon
moosekickedmysisterstoof 11-08-05, 02:32 PM	As much as I would love to delve into this little discussion over animal intelligence, the point of the matter is getting over looked. In game terms, dolphins have an intelligence of 2, which is smart for an animal. Personally, I think that animal intelligence should be handled a lot differently, but very few games have much focus on animals (unless they are mostly druid-oriented), so I doubt anyone will really want to spend a vast amount of time going through all of that. Anyway, I feel that people often underestimate animals. One of you made a comment about how dolphins never made artwork or poetry or wrote any literature. Personally, I don't see this as being a result of them not being intelligent, but rather them being victims of circumstance: they lack hands. I once read in a book about animal intelligence that a scholar once said that "if a cow had hands, God would be pictured with horns and chewing a cud" (or something like that, I read it a long time ago). I don't agree with this 100%, but the point is, you cannot judge the intellect of a creature based upon its accomplishments. Rather, you must judge them on their ability to learn. For example, apes can learn sign language because we taught it to them. They are highly intelligent because they are able to learn how to communicate with creatures of a different species. Apes take up sign language very quickly, but how well do humans take up learning the languages of other animals? Well, that's my :twocents: . - Johnny out.
savant_warlord13 11-08-05, 04:00 PM	It has been proven that dolphins are self-aware enough to recognize themselves in a mirror
savant_warlord13 11-08-05, 05:54 PM	i do not believe that dolphins are not sentient, though this depends on one's definition of sentience. anything alive is sentient to an extent, it has a mind and can think for itself (though instincts have a greater precedence over brains in most animals). for me, "real" sentience comes from being able to display intelligence (building, litterature, art & science) other then just picking out the right colors or shapes. the reason language isn't there as a criteria is that any animal that can make sound has a "language" of it's own, it's how language can be interpreted that makes the diffrence (that is why litterature is there and not language. to have litterature, your language must be highly developped as to have it's own grammar and an alphabet [borrowed or otherwise (think french/english. same alphabet, diffrent grammar) ] ). dolphins are group animals that have shown they can act in pacts with great efficiency and look cute. they have good memory, but have yet to prove they can actually meet my 4 personal requirements for real sentience. one could say that virtually any living creature that isn't a plant is sentient. all the races one can play in D&D are sentient. they have proven they can build things (buildings, weapons or equipment). they have litterature (be it pictographic or with letters, an elven romance novel or stories of the quickclaw lizardfolk tribe written down so they aren't forgotten).they have art (alright, this is relative to the race. elves see a tree as art, while dwarves see it as kindling. i believe if you can create something that your people call beautiful, it is art. unless your a dwarf, then it also has to be pratical :P) every race has it's own science of sorts (be it creating fire with twigs, a special process for dying clothing/armor or their own alchemical glue). in real life, humans are the only real sentient animal on this planet, with monkeys/apes and dolphins coming in second. even then, there is a HUGE gap between us and the other "intelligent" animals. again this is a personal opinion, so if you don't agree, feel free to ignore me or leave a few comments. First of all, who is to say dolphins don't have art? maybe they write songs. recording things is awfully difficult without thumbs, but was does that make a man without hands stupid? Second of all, macaws, elephants and octopi are all quite intelligent, and they, along with dolphins, have all been known to use tools Third of all, what HUGE GAP? people of low intelligence are just as smart as the average dolphin!
obrysii 11-08-05, 08:53 PM	In the real-world, no; no matter how intelligent they behave. 'Course, most observations tend to say otherwise, but, yeah: what do they know? They're scientists! Sentience is simply as defined as being able to feel or percieved, which all animals are. Sapience would be called into question: although dolphins clearly have mental capabilities that only apes (which one would argue is more intelligent than Int 2) and humans have...it is a different form of intelligence. Just because we can't understand them and can't truely understand their way of life does mean they lack either sentience or sapience.
Callahan 11-08-05, 09:05 PM	'Course, most observations tend to say otherwise, but, yeah: what do they know? They're scientists! well one thing that they KNOW is that there is no definite proof of dolphin intelligence. Both the difficulty of observing these creatures in their natural habitat as well as their differently constructed brains (though mammalian their brains are extremely different, so regular brain ratio does not apply) and the basic problem of human interpretation makes the assessment of Dolphin intelligence nearly impossible at this time. Just because one scientist said so it does not mean that it has to be true.
obrysii 11-08-05, 10:16 PM	well one thing that they KNOW is that there is no definite proof of dolphin intelligence. Both the difficulty of observing these creatures in their natural habitat as well as their differently constructed brains (though mammalian their brains are extremely different, so regular brain ratio does not apply) and the basic problem of human interpretation makes the assessment of Dolphin intelligence nearly impossible at this time. Just because one scientist said so it does not mean that it has to be true. Indeed. So there are different forms of intelligence . . . it makes them no less smart than us. Just smart in an entirely different way. There is no definitive proof of intelligence in some humans, but yet we like to consider ourselves the top of the top of the top. Who's to say? Maybe we aren't the top. Maybe dolphins are? Who knows for sure? Either way, in DnD terms, animals aren't like they are in real life...and are forced to have either 1 or 2 Int. If you don't like that, you feel free to change them to magical beasts and give them whatever int you want them to have.
Dhavaer 11-08-05, 10:27 PM	Pigs can use computers better than monkeys. This probably isn't relevant, but interesting none the less. I hate pigs, by the way.
Edymnion 11-08-05, 10:44 PM	It has been proven that dolphins are self-aware enough to recognize themselves in a mirrorSo could my old dog, Midnight. She recognized herself in the mirror, but it doesn't mean she was a sentient being. Are dolphins sentient? We don't know. And there is no way for us to know right now. We can anthropomorphize them all we want, but bottom line is that we have no way to determine sentience, not even amongst humans. Seriously, the question on whether something is truely sentient or just copying us very well is something we still can't answer. Is the artificial intelligence program actually alive and sentient, or is it just copying our external reactions so well we can't tell the differance? Does it matter? Until we find a way to answer these questions, we can't say whether a dolphin is sentient or not. Its like asking a color-blind person to say whether the wall is red or green, and all they can do is look at it. They can't tell just by looking, and neither can we.
obrysii 11-08-05, 10:50 PM	So could my old dog, Midnight. She recognized herself in the mirror, but it doesn't mean she was a sentient being. Are dolphins sentient? We don't know. And there is no way for us to know right now. We can anthropomorphize them all we want, but bottom line is that we have no way to determine sentience, not even amongst humans. Seriously, the question on whether something is truely sentient or just copying us very well is something we still can't answer. Is the artificial intelligence program actually alive and sentient, or is it just copying our external reactions so well we can't tell the differance? Does it matter? Until we find a way to answer these questions, we can't say whether a dolphin is sentient or not. Its like asking a color-blind person to say whether the wall is red or green, and all they can do is look at it. They can't tell just by looking, and neither can we. Well said. Exactly what I was trying to get across. I'm just nowhere near as able to say it correctly as you are.
Hyrael the Dreamer 11-08-05, 10:56 PM	Either way, in DnD terms, animals aren't like they are in real life...and are forced to have either 1 or 2 Int. If you don't like that, you feel free to change them to magical beasts and give them whatever int you want them to have. The Revised D&D Dolphin Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: Swim 80 ft Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Blindsight 120 ft, Hold breath Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perform (sing) +8, Speak Language (common, aquan, sylvan, elven, celestial), Perform (dance) +4, Swim +12, Diplomacy +8, Bluff +4, Survival +3 Feats: Endurance Environment: Temperate aquatic Organization: Solitary, pair, or pod (3-20) Alignment: usualy neutral good Challenge Rating: 3/4 Advancement: By class level (usualy bard) Level Adjustment: +0 An even more revised D&D Dolphin Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast (psionic) Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 20 ft, Swim 80 ft Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Blindsight 120 ft, Hold breath, Psionics, levitation. Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perform (sing) +8, Speak Language (common, aquan, sylvan, elven, celestial), Perform (dance) +4, Swim +12, Diplomacy +8, Knowledge (psionics) +8, Psicraft +8 Feats: Endurance Environment: Temperate aquatic Organization: Solitary, pair, or pod (3-20) Challenge Rating: 2 Alignment: usualy neutral good Advancement: By class level (psion) Level Adjustment: +2 Psionics (at will - far hand, detect psionics, conceal thoughts, Empathy. 3/day - Precognition defensive, Prescience offensive, Missive. 1/day - Telempathic Projection, Mind thrust (2d10, DC 14). the save DC are charisma based. Levitation: a dolphin can mentaly propel itself across solid surfaces in the same way a human can walk. this is treated as walking in the normal fashion for all purposes, such as difficult terrain, forced marches, ect. It also has a permanent catfall effect (unaugmented) Ok, so that second one is a little crazy. just a thought
Quirriff 11-08-05, 11:05 PM	AD&D Dolphins were Inteligent, who cares about the real world, in fact I think they were Lawful Good, not Neutral Good, they were inteligent, but otherwise had animal abilities.
Gnomish Zombie 11-08-05, 11:18 PM	The Revised D&D Dolphin Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: Swim 80 ft Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Blindsight 120 ft, Hold breath Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perform (sing) +8, Speak Language (common, aquan, sylvan, elven, celestial), Perform (dance) +4, Swim +12, Diplomacy +8, Bluff +4, Survival +3 Feats: Endurance Environment: Temperate aquatic Organization: Solitary, pair, or pod (3-20) Alignment: usualy neutral good Challenge Rating: 3/4 Advancement: By class level (usualy bard) Level Adjustment: +0 An even more revised D&D Dolphin Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast (psionic) Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 20 ft, Swim 80 ft Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Blindsight 120 ft, Hold breath, Psionics, levitation. Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perform (sing) +8, Speak Language (common, aquan, sylvan, elven, celestial), Perform (dance) +4, Swim +12, Diplomacy +8, Knowledge (psionics) +8, Psicraft +8 Feats: Endurance Environment: Temperate aquatic Organization: Solitary, pair, or pod (3-20) Challenge Rating: 2 Alignment: usualy neutral good Advancement: By class level (psion) Level Adjustment: +2 Psionics (at will - far hand, detect psionics, conceal thoughts, Empathy. 3/day - Precognition defensive, Prescience offensive, Missive. 1/day - Telempathic Projection, Mind thrust (2d10, DC 14). the save DC are charisma based. Levitation: a dolphin can mentaly propel itself across solid surfaces in the same way a human can walk. this is treated as walking in the normal fashion for all purposes, such as difficult terrain, forced marches, ect. It also has a permanent catfall effect (unaugmented) Ok, so that second one is a little crazy. just a thought Akin to walking on land? In this case, they are Neutral Evil, and you could get a glimpse of their might in The Simpsons...
Hyrael the Dreamer 11-09-05, 12:24 AM	My king! you have returned! they made me do tricks, like a common seal! can you put it behind you? No! here is my secret plan! ___________________________ I, king snorky, banish all humans to the sea! of course, in this case, the dolphin is 'floating' above the ground, not hopping on its tail. and they are undaunted by voleyball nets.
Prak, the Mad 11-09-05, 12:27 AM	for me, "real" sentience comes from being able to display intelligence (building, litterature, art & science) other then just picking out the right colors or shapes. funny, take that to the next steps(nukes, x-ticides, etc.) and you get what I use to define human stupidity the reason language isn't there as a criteria is that any animal that can make sound has a "language" of it's own, it's how language can be interpreted that makes the diffrence (that is why litterature is there and not language. to have litterature, your language must be highly developped as to have it's own grammar and an alphabet [borrowed or otherwise (think french/english. same alphabet, diffrent grammar) ] ). I agree with the first part about language not being a prerequisite for 'intelligence' ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The way I separate humans from animals is morals, humans are the only animals that have, as a group, burdened themselves with morals.
MidnightLightning 11-09-05, 12:42 AM	Why do dolphins have an intelligence score of only 2? :confused: If Dolphins deserve a higher Int, why not Gorillas and other apes? In D&D terms, the amount of tricks an animal can learn is dependant on Int, and in the real world, a gorilla can be taught sign language and have an interactive conversation; that's got to be worth a couple dozen 'tricks' It has been proven that dolphins are self-aware enough to recognize themselves in a mirror You'd be referring to the "Mirror Test" (http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/05-3-01/Science/2.html), I take it. To my knowledge, Chimps and Dolphins are the only two species (other than humans) who pass this test. It's more than just seeing oneself in the mirror and not attacking it, thinking it's an enemy. The test is normally (how it was performed on chimps) was that researchers put a dot of paint on the chimps forehead while it was asleep, then put it in a room with a mirror. When it saw itself in the mirror, it reached up to touch its own forehead, indicating it realized the reflection was itself, rather than trying to touch the paint on the forehead of the reflection. Since dolphins can't touch their own foreheads, the test was modified: the dolphin watched as a researcher did something to the dolphin's belly (where it can't twist and see itself). The researcher was applying a dot of paint, and immediately afterward, the dolphing went to an underwater mirror and twisted in the water so it could see the paint in its reflected image. So, if you use the fact that animals can be taught 3 tricks per Int point, dolphins (and apes) should have a maximum of 6 tricks. In your average dolphin show, each individual dolphin probably only knows about six tricks. But if an ape can be taught sign language (a significantly harder trick), and has also passed te mirror test, perhaps both should have a few more points of Int (I still wouldn'd say higher than 6, probably 4 would work).
Prak, the Mad 11-09-05, 12:44 AM	well one thing that they KNOW is that there is no definite proof of dolphin intelligence. Both the difficulty of observing these creatures in their natural habitat as well as their differently constructed brains (though mammalian their brains are extremely different, so regular brain ratio does not apply) and the basic problem of human interpretation makes the assessment of Dolphin intelligence nearly impossible at this time. Just because one scientist said so it does not mean that it has to be true. so in other words, they are absolutely certain that they are uncertain as to whether dolphins are intelligent or not... oh, and I'm sure that a certain prehensile part of a dolphin's anatomy(well, males...) could hold a good bit of spell tattoos... Indeed. So there are different forms of intelligence . . . it makes them no less smart than us. Just smart in an entirely different way. so they're aberrations?(j/k)
rampant 11-09-05, 01:34 AM	I still think they are playing games with us why else would they always be smiling :D
Rake 11-09-05, 01:53 AM	Ooookay, guys. Let's leave the speculation behind. sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt) adj. 1. Having sense perception; conscious. 2. Experiencing sensation or feeling. Dolphins are perfectly sentient. All non-plant life is, even insects. Self-awareness within the d20 system is represented by Wisdom and Charisma, not Intelligence. Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings... ...Charisma measures a character's force of personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality... Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma... Notice that, as far as animals go, dolphins have good Wisdom scores, and excellent Charisma scores. The real issue is primates. Shouldn't primates ought to be able to learn one non-verbal language as a 'trick'? Also, why do wolverines have such an incredibly high Charisma score?
mythSSK 11-09-05, 03:03 AM	Also, why do wolverines have such an incredibly high Charisma score?Have you met a wolverine??? If those things don't have force of personality, I don't know what does.
danzig138 11-09-05, 03:08 AM	Something alongs the lines of reproduction and how only humans and dolphins do it for fun.I don't know. . . the bonobos look like they're having a pretty good time to me. :)
savant_warlord13 11-09-05, 06:44 AM	The Revised D&D Dolphin Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: Swim 80 ft Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Blindsight 120 ft, Hold breath Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perform (sing) +8, Speak Language (common, aquan, sylvan, elven, celestial), Perform (dance) +4, Swim +12, Diplomacy +8, Bluff +4, Survival +3 Feats: Endurance Environment: Temperate aquatic Organization: Solitary, pair, or pod (3-20) Alignment: usualy neutral good Challenge Rating: 3/4 Advancement: By class level (usualy bard) Level Adjustment: +0 An even more revised D&D Dolphin Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast (psionic) Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 20 ft, Swim 80 ft Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (2d4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Blindsight 120 ft, Hold breath, Psionics, levitation. Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perform (sing) +8, Speak Language (common, aquan, sylvan, elven, celestial), Perform (dance) +4, Swim +12, Diplomacy +8, Knowledge (psionics) +8, Psicraft +8 Feats: Endurance Environment: Temperate aquatic Organization: Solitary, pair, or pod (3-20) Challenge Rating: 2 Alignment: usualy neutral good Advancement: By class level (psion) Level Adjustment: +2 Psionics (at will - far hand, detect psionics, conceal thoughts, Empathy. 3/day - Precognition defensive, Prescience offensive, Missive. 1/day - Telempathic Projection, Mind thrust (2d10, DC 14). the save DC are charisma based. Levitation: a dolphin can mentaly propel itself across solid surfaces in the same way a human can walk. this is treated as walking in the normal fashion for all purposes, such as difficult terrain, forced marches, ect. It also has a permanent catfall effect (unaugmented) Ok, so that second one is a little crazy. just a thought I was thinking more intelligence 8...
Derren S. 11-09-05, 07:30 AM	Um, right. Only because there was a TV serie about a cute dolphin doesn't mean that they are really inteligent. If they are inteligent compareable to a human, , why are they still caught in tuna nets? Dolphins might be one of the more intelligent animals but still an animal. Imo this thread is mainly there because dolphins are cute and therefore must be "special", not because of their actual abilities.
MidnightLightning 11-09-05, 08:38 AM	Um, right. Only because there was a TV series about a cute dolphin doesn't mean that they are really inteligent. I completely agree; if that were true, we'd also be debating that dogs should have a higher Int because Lassie could be trained to 'act' reliably enough to make a series featuring her as well. But, both Lassie and Flipper (And Mr. Ed, for that matter) needed an animal handler off to the side telling them what 'trick' to do next (Look this way, follow Timmy, bark, look scared, whine, etc) to make it look like they were reacting to the action of the human actors, but they were really only performing tricks. Also, as another poster brought up, pigs are rather intelligent too, yet can be on the odiferous side, so we're not just looking at cuteness here. If they are inteligent compareable to a human, , why are they still caught in tuna nets? Because drift nets underwater are darn near invisible unless you're feet away from them (even you would have trouble avoiding them, I'd wager), and dolphins are big enough creatures that once they're close, it's too late to avoid it, and since they don't have thumbs, nor limbs that can reach everywhere on their body, they can't carefully extract themselves from the nets. Also, since the nets are so sheer, their sonar doesn't help them see it. Every monster has a weakness; that's primarily how PCs manage to defeat monsters stronger than they are, and this is just an exploitation of dolphins' weakness. Dolphins might be one of the more intelligent animals but still an animal. Imo this thread is mainly there because dolphins are cute and therefore must be "special", not because of their actual abilities. D&D classifies all creatures of the animal type to have an Int of 1 or 2, so therefore dolphins have the currently highest defined Int for an animal (2), but so does a lot of other animals, and we're bringing evidence to the table that dolphins are above (if only slightly) from the other Int 2 animals.
Rake 11-09-05, 09:13 AM	Again, this isn't about Intelligence... what you're talking about is Wisdom and Charisma. The misuse of the term 'sentient' began because many posters argue that the dolphin is self-aware. Self-awareness and the ability to understand yourself as you relate to other, sentient things, is represented by Charisma. The dolphin has a very good Charisma score, as do the other, more 'personable' animals.
obrysii 11-09-05, 11:05 AM	Of course, I can't recall ever watching Flipper...so my opinion of their intelligence does not stem from such things. Dolphins have been known to use tools; only higher primates are otherwise known to do that.
Derren S. 11-09-05, 11:16 AM	So, why aren't we discussing if higher primates should have a higher int? In which book are the stats for dolphins? I would like to compare them to the Int and Wis scores of higher primates to see who needs higher scores, dolphins or monkeys.
MidnightLightning 11-09-05, 01:13 PM	In which book are the stats for dolphins? A Porpoise is the stats for a dolphin, I believe: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/porpoise.htm You can find ape stats here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm And a baboon here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/baboon.htm And a Girallon is pretty close to a gorilla: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/girallon.htm
Derren S. 11-09-05, 01:24 PM	Lol. I always thought a porpoise is some kind of turtle. Its never to late to expand your knowledge about foreign languages.
MidnightLightning 11-09-05, 02:00 PM	Lol. I always thought a porpoise is some kind of turtle. Scientific analysis here: http://www.nhm.org/research/mammals/dolporp/dolporp.html You were probably thinking of Tortoise, which is a sort of turtle, rather than Porpoise, which is a swimming mammal.
oxybe 11-09-05, 02:41 PM	@savant_warlord13 & moosekickedmysisterstoof: what is up with that no-hands statement? one needs not hands to have records of things or create, the only reason you percieve it that way is because it is the norm for humans, and even then are amputees considered not-intelligent because some of them have no hands? no. they can still create using diffrent methods, and in many extents are far more intelligent the us "handymen/women" you asked about the intelligence gap: can dolphins do long division? can dolphins draw out blueprints for buildings? no one has ever been able to get a dolphin do anything past basic math (if memory serves, they taught a dolphin to count a few low numbers and other "tricks") @prak the mad: that isn't quite stupidity, but intelligence warped/misused. with sentience comes free will, and thus morality and the ability to choose your destiny. some people (like terrorists and militarist) can actually be seen in two lights: destructive ruffians or creative demolitionists. they saw an idea and were able to modify it to suite their needs (albeit destructive and morally horrid). now, i am not saying the A-Bomb and germ warfare are good things, i agree: it is terrible, but one must admit, they knew their stuff, they were smart. you can be smart and do really stupid things. (albert einstein could be considered the father of the A-Bomb. nice guy, but his research was warped.) i must also agree that humans seem to be the only animal that seems to have morals, though one could easily say (as does the dolphin defenders) that dolphins may have "diffrent" morals. on a side note, morals are tought by society to it's newer generations based on what it defines as "right and wrong" (two completely subjectional and environmental elements, varying from society to society). on could interpret that in a similar way that carnivorous pack animals teach their young to not always tear each other apart and to work with each other to survive. @rake: actually this is about intelligence. the OP was wondering why dolphins had an int of 2 (they are animals, and 2 is the highest a D&D animal can legally have, if memory serves). sentience is also often attributed to intelligence (as was previously said by other posters, sentience is self-awareness [a mix of wis and cha, which dolphins have plenty of]) which is what this thread is now about (again, the reason for int = 2 is because of the animal template, but now we want to rationalize the extent of a dolphin's awareness). @Edymnion oddly enough it is impossible for any race to truly "know" anything. just because we count 1-10 does that mean we are counting right? maybe some alien race counts 1-15 (or it's alien equivalent)? all anyone can do is set a bar and compare. humans set the bar of intelligence at themselves, because this is the only bar we know of. we have yet to communicate successfully with any other intelligent race.
Ozymandias V. 11-09-05, 06:33 PM	This thread became silly a few posts in. =P As has already been stated REPEATEDLY, dolphins have low Int because they are animals. Animals in DnD have Int of 1 or 2. If the Int goes higher then it is no longer an animal.
Nephlite 11-09-05, 06:42 PM	This thread became silly a few posts in. =P As has already been stated REPEATEDLY, dolphins have low Int because they are animals. Animals in DnD have Int of 1 or 2. If the Int goes higher then it is no longer an animal. Exactly Dolphins are Magical Beast with Int of 4. Now, " So long, so long, so long.... so long, so long so long....and thanks for al the fish!" :D
savant_warlord13 11-09-05, 07:02 PM	Of course, I can't recall ever watching Flipper...so my opinion of their intelligence does not stem from such things. Dolphins have been known to use tools; only higher primates are otherwise known to do that. WRONG!!! Many species of birds use tools (http://www.jcrows.com/crow.html) As well as many other animals (http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/front_new/watch/default.asp?mode=program&tdatetime=10%2F28%2F2005+6%3A00%3A00+AM) And yet more animals (http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/biology/tool-use-ansc-04.html)
Hyrael the Dreamer 11-09-05, 09:38 PM	The Hitchhiker dolphins would have int 20 (much smarter than humans), and some massive psionic or magical power, as they can travel between planes. but, as for the regular earth dolphin...4. or 5. But, if you follow the fantasy/ scifi archtype that dolphins are as smart as humans, and just dont feel like telling anyone...int 14. EEk EEk eerr ::click:: EEEEE ::whistle:: ekekekek! ::clickclickclick:: E-e-e-e-eeeeerrrrrrr ::whistle:: EEK! (trans: Join the Campaign to Save the Humans! Think of all those fish they gave us!)
General_Ridley 11-09-05, 10:23 PM	remember, the order of intelligence is this: 1. mice 2. dolphins 3. humans
rampant 11-09-05, 11:56 PM	Dolphins can perform mental exercises that many humans cannot do, and even those of us who can have to work and train at it. What the hell am i talking about? Thinking in three dimensions. A dolphin's awareness of itself operates in 3 dimensions instead of 2 like ours. The lack of hands does explain a lack of teck without hands it is dificult to devise and use tools. Intelligence does not mean tools or tech. It means problem solving ability, cognitive thinking, and the ability to learn. Dolphins can learnmuch more than 6 tricks.
Callahan 11-10-05, 12:43 AM	Dolphins can perform mental exercises that many humans cannot do such as?
oxybe 11-10-05, 09:16 AM	Dolphins can perform mental exercises that many humans cannot do, and even those of us who can have to work and train at it. What the hell am i talking about? Thinking in three dimensions. A dolphin's awareness of itself operates in 3 dimensions instead of 2 like ours. The lack of hands does explain a lack of teck without hands it is dificult to devise and use tools. Intelligence does not mean tools or tech. It means problem solving ability, cognitive thinking, and the ability to learn. Dolphins can learnmuch more than 6 tricks. try building a house without "thinking in 3 dimentions". now try building a skyscraper. your argument falls apart real fast. operating in two dimentions means front, back, left, right and all directions inbetween. the second you jump, go up a ladder or fall off a cliff you move in 3 dimentions. one dimention means back and forth. no other ways to go. eith up and down or left and right. now, think back to the old atari and nintendo games. you only had 2 dimentions in those games (SMB1: jump, fall, left, right) or asteriods (move in all directions, but on only 1 plane). now think about modern games like Shadow of the Colossus (PS2). you can move in all directions as well as jump and fall. fighting games have the same options lately (tekken and Soul Calibur for example). humans operate in 3 dimentions, even if we cannot fly/swim in our natural environment, we have many ways to operate in 3 dimentions -------------------------------------------------------------------------- problem solving ability & cognitive thinking = wisdom learning = int the argument is about the dolphins int score. i agree, in dolphins may have a high wis & cha, but they are still animals, and have a low int score. dolphins cannot learn more advanced stuff like humans can.
Gazza555 11-10-05, 10:01 AM	Excuse my ignorance, but what book is the dolphin in. Regards, Gary
oxybe 11-10-05, 10:16 AM	MidnightLightning gave the links to the stats of many "intelligent" animals A Porpoise is the stats for a dolphin, I believe: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/porpoise.htm You can find ape stats here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm And a baboon here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/baboon.htm And a Girallon is pretty close to a gorilla: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/girallon.htm
Gazza555 11-10-05, 10:22 AM	Thanks, serves me right for reading the first few posts and then going to the second page. :embarrass Regards, Gary
Keenath 11-10-05, 10:56 AM	There is no black-and-white line between animal and intelligent. Humans don't like it, but very little in this world has a strong dividing line. A dolphin, a parrot, a chimpanzee -- these are very smart animals. Left alone, perhaps one would develop human-like intelligence eventually. But there is no way to draw a line that says "this is animal on this side, this is fellow-being on the other". It's a question of degrees. Some types of parrot are as smart as a six-year-old child. Are parrots "intelligent"? Many animals can recognize themself in a mirror and show strong evidence that they are aware of their own existence -- are they "self aware"? As Rake pointed out, "sentient" merely means "having senses", though we often use it to mean "conscious". The best scientists in the field are practically incapable of properly defining what separates human from animal. I doubt a D&D message board can do any better.
savant_warlord13 11-10-05, 01:27 PM	@savant_warlord13 & moosekickedmysisterstoof: what is up with that no-hands statement? one needs not hands to have records of things or create, the only reason you percieve it that way is because it is the norm for humans, and even then are amputees considered not-intelligent because some of them have no hands? no. they can still create using diffrent methods, and in many extents are far more intelligent the us "handymen/women" you asked about the intelligence gap: can dolphins do long division? can dolphins draw out blueprints for buildings? no one has ever been able to get a dolphin do anything past basic math (if memory serves, they taught a dolphin to count a few low numbers and other "tricks") (Comments about others edited out) I said that about amputees because I was trying to prove that just because dolphins don't keep written records doesn't make them stupid. Besides if you told me to do basic math, I wouldn't listen to you either And why would they want to draw up blueprints for a building they wouldn't be able to make? and where would they do so? In the sand underwater? It would be washed away!
Keenath 11-10-05, 01:42 PM	You'd be referring to the "Mirror Test" (http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/05-3-01/Science/2.html), I take it. To my knowledge, Chimps and Dolphins are the only two species (other than humans) who pass this test. Not true! Orangutangs have also passed, as has at least one gorilla. (It's thought that gorillas consider eye contact threatening, and so won't examine a mirror closely enough to realize what it is!) Some parrots have passed the mirror test, while others of the same species fail. Moreover, there is a famous African Grey parrot named Alex who is able to speak a good amount of english and solve problems on the level of a kindergarten child -- for example, given a tray of multicolored shapes, he can tell you how many green triangles there are. He's not just counting, but cognatively working out the combination of shape and color in order to count only the ones that fit. And he apparently doesn't get mirrors. So, either he fakes intelligence really well, or the mirror test is inherently flawed. Perhaps some animals simply aren't interested in paint dots, or perhaps they ignore reflections due to some natural process of their brain. A species who is native to an area with reflective surfaces -- still pools of water, for example -- might automatically ignore mirrors once they're identified, because it is not a survival trait to attack large pools of water or try to fly through solid, reflective surfaces. Over many generations, it could simply develop through natural selection that their species ignores mirrors. That's no more a sign of reduced reasoning ability than a human who learns to filter out conversations that aren't directed at him.
Nephlite 11-10-05, 02:07 PM	remember, the order of intelligence is this: 1. mice 2. dolphins 3. humans I demand a recount: Mice bought off the testers with money (after all they can afford to build a new world).
SamirTrollslayer 11-10-05, 02:08 PM	It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much — the wheel, New York, wars and so on — while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man — for precisely the same reasons. Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (1979) But the rats are smarter than them all...
oxybe 11-10-05, 03:15 PM	currently all dolphins have going for them is : A) just because they don't do stuff doesnt mean they can't. -just because i dont run marathons, does that mean i can't? this is like trying to prove god exists B) they cant build stuff underwater. -yes, stuff can be built underwater. i has been done before. C) no hands = can't do anything at all that requires moving/manipulating stuff (i still dont understand this point...). - yes and no. dolphins live underwater, and should have an easier time moving heavier things. fine manipulation is hard without digits, but they could build things. D) the mirror test -the mirror test is cha based. it proves they can distinguish themselves from others of their race. again this does not prove intelligence, but that they can recognize themselves. E) some animals can learn stuff (math, shapes, ect...) -Ok, they can learn to tell a square from a circle. now can it apply that knowledge? other then getting a parrot treat, what does the parrot gain from knowing that there are 5 green triangles? i doubt the parrot will apply that knowledge at anytime. THAT is intelligence, applying what you know to better an aspect your life. which brings me to my original post: building, litterature, art & science. these are the application and dislplay of knowledge, and thus intelligence. dolphins may be able to learn things, but i have yet to see them apply this knowlege for any practical use (other then getting treats, which for a 2 int animal, is smart :P).
savant_warlord13 11-10-05, 03:29 PM	So you're all calling mentally defficient humans no better than animals, is what it really comes down to
oxybe 11-10-05, 06:12 PM	did you not read my previous posts? no. i said people/animals need not hands to build/be smart. that is a ridiculous statement in itself.
Aurotuli 11-10-05, 10:37 PM	Personally, I think primates should be humanoids (not animals) with a racial Int penalty of -6 (such that most chimps would have an Int of 4 or 5). Dolphins, however, cannot possibly into the humanoid camp due to its lack of arms, legs, hands, etc. A while back I created a sub-type for animals called "Clever" which I then applied to any animal that seemed clever for its brain size: dogs, wolves, squirrels, dolphins, whales, and a few others. Basically all it does it add 1d3+1 enhancement to each mental stat and allowing for Int 3+ animals. To prevent some potential problems, I decided that templates ignore enhancement boni. Thus this does not allow for templates requiring Int 3+ to be applied to the resultant creatures. Int 4 or 5 sounds about right for dolphins. That would put them in the same league as chimps and gorillas (regardless of whether such receive the Clever subtype or the humanoid type with an Int penalty).
rampant 11-11-05, 04:08 AM	we can operate in 3d but thinking in 3d is different it isn't a natural process and some people really never learn to do it. It requires much more contemplation for most people, one of the hardest things a fighter pilot has to learn is how to think llike a dolphin without having to stop the plane.
RavinRay 11-11-05, 07:14 AM	Anything with an Int above 2 has minimal knowledge of the moral and ethical axes of D&D. It can of its own free will act according to those. Thus animals are neutral, because even their externally chaotic/evil/good/lawful acts are done simply on instinct or because of training, not because they are deliberately acting out on those alignments. That, for me, is a consequence of sentience.
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 08:55 AM	So dolphins are good, I can live with that
obrysii 11-11-05, 09:43 AM	Anything with an Int above 2 has minimal knowledge of the moral and ethical axes of D&D. It can of its own free will act according to those. Thus animals are neutral, because even their externally chaotic/evil/good/lawful acts are done simply on instinct or because of training, not because they are deliberately acting out on those alignments. That, for me, is a consequence of sentience. Aren't dolphins known for saving humans at sea, even when they could just as easily eat them?
Keenath 11-11-05, 09:46 AM	INT 1 contains a wide array of intelligence, from lizards to fish to songbirds. It can be generally categorized as "stupid animals", which covers everything from the brainstem responses of small fish to the hunting ability of a shark or the complex song of a lark. INT 2 can be stated as "clever animals", and covers (arguably) an even wider range -- everything human-trainable is INT 2, as are bison and oxen (I won't say cows, because they've been bred to imbecility compared to their wild cousins), the smarter birds, and everything up to dolphin or chimp level. INT 3 is a big step up, though -- that's the level that can fully comprehend a spoken language, though they may not be able to speak it themselves. INT 3 doesn't need to be *trained*, because it's capable of understanding a request. You don't keep track of "tricks" for a creature of INT 3; it's able to handle all the tricks because it's that smart. So, basically, I'd argue that the first three points of intelligence simply cover a much wider range than the next fifteen. A creature of INT 3 is *much* smarter than a creature of INT 2, just because the game is designed to generate scores from 3 to 18 -- that region is a flat scale. The whole game is designed around human-normal and doesn't worry much about the differences that exist in the low end. If you wanted to do it that way, you'd need to spread out the low end of the scale, but the game just doesn't care that much. It's a game about heroes and magic, not figuring out exactly how smart a dolphin is relative to a lizard and a mentally disabled human.
Keenath 11-11-05, 09:48 AM	Aren't dolphins known for saving humans at sea, even when they could just as easily eat them? According to Terry Pratchett, dolphins save drowning sailors whenever there's the smallest chance that somebody might observe them devouring the human.
obrysii 11-11-05, 09:57 AM	INT 3 is a big step up, though -- that's the level that can fully comprehend a spoken language, though they may not be able to speak it themselves. INT 3 doesn't need to be *trained*, because it's capable of understanding a request. You don't keep track of "tricks" for a creature of INT 3; it's able to handle all the tricks because it's that smart. Technically, humans do not fall into the Int 3 catagory, then. Many people aren't capable of understanding a request, and need training. And you aren't taking into the fact that animals (particularly dolphins) speak an entirely different language and hear in entirely different ranges. If you tell someone a request in a language they don't understand, they won't follow it; hence they aren't, by your logic, even at Int 3. Sure, gorillas and chimps can learn and speak sign language (even to the point of coming up with complex words and showing remorse for things done in the past)...but dolphins are incapable of reproducing sign language, and therefore cannot speak it. In order to understand a dolphin's true mental capacity, we'll have to find a sort of universal language...one both dolphins and humans can relate to. Another sign of intelligence: Dolphins have some aspects of cultural learning (as do Orcas).
Keenath 11-11-05, 10:12 AM	And this all comes back to the next paragraph: It's not a game about figuring exactly how smart a dolphin should be. The system has declared that animals have only 1 or 2 INT, so if you want a dolphin to be INT 3 or 4 (which is certainly arguable), you have to change the system. Technically, humans do not fall into the Int 3 catagory, then. Many people aren't capable of understanding a request, and need training.You're using two different meanings of training. Humans need training, certainly, to gain ranks in profession, knowledge, or craft skills. But they don't require weeks or months of training for jobs that match the tricks, like "attack anyone who comes in this room" or "hand me that wrench". And you aren't taking into the fact that animals (particularly dolphins) speak an entirely different language and hear in entirely different ranges. If you tell someone a request in a language they don't understand, they won't follow it; hence they aren't, by your logic, even at Int 3.Please don't twist my comments with bizarre logic and then claim that I said such a stupid thing. Obviously I'm referring to a request made in a language the creature speaks. So far we have NO evidence that dolphins have a language -- or at any rate, a language capable of describing abstract concepts. "FOOD HERE" is not a language. It's a call.
MidnightLightning 11-11-05, 10:38 AM	In order to understand a dolphin's true mental capacity, we'll have to find a sort of universal language...one both dolphins and humans can relate to. One large aquarium in Florda has an underwater 'keyboard' for their dolphins. It's an array of cubbyholes with pictures in the bottom, and if anything fairly large and dense (i.e. a diver's hand or a dolphin's snout) enters the hole, it trips a trigger and an underwater speaker says the word that the picture indicates. With that, the trainers give request to the dolphins ("Go", "Treasure Chest", and the dolphin swims to the area of the tank where there was a chest sculpture, where another trainer was hiding), and the dolphins can 'type back (The trainer can also say "Find", "Ball", and the dolphin will find it, swim back and 'type' "Seaweed Forest", which was where the ball was), so they're working on a common language, and a means for the dolphins to initiate a conversation (since all 'typed' words are broadcast under and over the water, a dolphin that 'types' "Food" or "Danger" could get the attention of the trainers even if they're not in the tank with it), which is really a big step away from "tricks" toward "conversation".
The Abominable Darkling 11-11-05, 10:41 AM	It always amazes how resistant some people are to the idea that animals are intelligent. What is it with you people? Are you afraid that someone will give your job to a dolphin?
Keenath 11-11-05, 10:46 AM	It always amazes how resistant some people are to the idea that animals are intelligent. What is it with you people? Are you afraid that someone will give your job to a dolphin? YES! Damn those fish-eaters and their lung capacity! Seriously, though, no. I primarily argue that there is no good definition for "intelligent" that can cleanly define what is and is not intelligent. In fact, I believe that such a definition is impossible; intelligence (or rather, self-aware conciousness) is a continuum, not an on-off switch. However, for the terms of the game, we should simply assume Dolphins are INT 2.
The Abominable Darkling 11-11-05, 11:05 AM	That's probably for the best. Even giving them an intelligence of 3 would allow them to take character classes--which is strange, to say the least.
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 11:12 AM	Aren't dolphins known for saving humans at sea, even when they could just as easily eat them? I think they would have some trouble eating people, but it would be easier to leave them for dead.
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 11:14 AM	INT 1 contains a wide array of intelligence, from lizards to fish to songbirds. It can be generally categorized as "stupid animals", which covers everything from the brainstem responses of small fish to the hunting ability of a shark or the complex song of a lark. INT 2 can be stated as "clever animals", and covers (arguably) an even wider range -- everything human-trainable is INT 2, as are bison and oxen (I won't say cows, because they've been bred to imbecility compared to their wild cousins), the smarter birds, and everything up to dolphin or chimp level. INT 3 is a big step up, though -- that's the level that can fully comprehend a spoken language, though they may not be able to speak it themselves. INT 3 doesn't need to be *trained*, because it's capable of understanding a request. You don't keep track of "tricks" for a creature of INT 3; it's able to handle all the tricks because it's that smart. So, basically, I'd argue that the first three points of intelligence simply cover a much wider range than the next fifteen. A creature of INT 3 is *much* smarter than a creature of INT 2, just because the game is designed to generate scores from 3 to 18 -- that region is a flat scale. The whole game is designed around human-normal and doesn't worry much about the differences that exist in the low end. If you wanted to do it that way, you'd need to spread out the low end of the scale, but the game just doesn't care that much. It's a game about heroes and magic, not figuring out exactly how smart a dolphin is relative to a lizard and a mentally disabled human. They cannot fully comprehend spoken language, that is like saying mentally impaired humans can be good philosophers
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 11:15 AM	That's probably for the best. Even giving them an intelligence of 3 would allow them to take character classes--which is strange, to say the least. The whole point of this thread was my sister wanted to play a dolphin character
lugnut71 11-11-05, 11:20 AM	Another point that is somewhat off topic is that dolphins are not gentle creatures. They are in fact very horrible. Dolphin attacks are just as frequent as shark attacks. Dolphins also frequently kill other smaller species of dolphin to reduce competition. (This is a common occurance in nature with all species). On the other hand Orca's have never been recorded attacking humans ever. That really doesn't have anything to do with what I was writing but sure is intresting.
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 11:22 AM	Another point that is somewhat off topic is that dolphins are not gentle creatures. They are in fact very horrible. Dolphin attacks are just as frequent as shark attacks. Dolphins also frequently kill other smaller species of dolphin to reduce competition. (This is a common occurance in nature with all species). On the other hand Orca's have never been recorded attacking humans ever. That really doesn't have anything to do with what I was writing but sure is intresting. Dolphins are just alot tougher than us and are trying to play. They don't understand how fragile we are. :weep:
MidnightLightning 11-11-05, 11:39 AM	Dolphins are just alot tougher than us and are trying to play. They don't understand how fragile we are. :weep: Right: Dolphin 'attacks' (and most shark 'attacks' too, BTW) are usually reported as one bite. The animal is either trying to play or trying to figure out if you're food. Usually after one nip (well, a nip to them; it still hurts us a bit though), it determines you're not it's normal diet, and leaves. On the other hand Orca's have never been recorded attacking humans ever. Interesting. If that is indeed a true fact, it's a wonder why their nickname is "Killer whales"...
The Abominable Darkling 11-11-05, 12:02 PM	The whole point of this thread was my sister wanted to play a dolphin character lol. Then why on earth didn't you just say so? Let her play an awakened dolphin. End of problem.
Puca 11-11-05, 12:18 PM	If dolphins are that smart, does that mean we have to stop cutting off their flippers to make soup? MMMMMmmmmmmmm, soup.
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 12:55 PM	Right: Dolphin 'attacks' (and most shark 'attacks' too, BTW) are usually reported as one bite. The animal is either trying to play or trying to figure out if you're food. Usually after one nip (well, a nip to them; it still hurts us a bit though), it determines you're not it's normal diet, and leaves. Interesting. If that is indeed a true fact, it's a wonder why their nickname is "Killer whales"... Dolphin 'attacks' do not involve biting, but slamming into people with great force, much as they do playfully with each other
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 12:56 PM	If dolphins are that smart, does that mean we have to stop cutting off their flippers to make soup? MMMMMmmmmmmmm, soup. That's sharks
Hyrael the Dreamer 11-11-05, 12:59 PM	The whole point of this thread was my sister wanted to play a dolphin character Well, you could make a variant race of Darfellans, from Stormwrack. they're like Orca/humans. Instead of +2 str, -2 dex, give them -2 dex, +2 int, +2 cha, grey skin, and favored class: bard. or, you could make a were-dolphin. or, you could use the idea that, in D&D, those grey grinning fish are alot smarter than they seem. Give them some minor psionic power (mostly empathy based, far hand at will, maybe mind thrust), a bonus to int and cha, and, if you want to adventure on land, the ability to levitate, and they have basicaly the same capabilties as a humanoid). //////////// Quote: Originally Posted by Puca If dolphins are that smart, does that mean we have to stop cutting off their flippers to make soup? MMMMMmmmmmmmm, soup. That's sharks /////////// not in the future ::This is a paraphrase from the poppler episode of futurama:: Bender: Here's dinner! Amy: what is it? Bender: dolphin Leela: But dolphins are intelligent animals! Bender: not this one. when I found him, he had lost all his money gambling. Leela: oh, thats ok then Fry: Ill have a fin Farnsworth: give me the speech center of the brain.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-11-05, 03:49 PM	On the other hand Orca's have never been recorded attacking humans ever. That really doesn't have anything to do with what I was writing but sure is intresting. Well, there is an orca (Think he died awhile back) who drowned someone who climbed into his tank. He also removed the guy's bathing suit with his teeth.
oxybe 11-12-05, 01:59 PM	It always amazes how resistant some people are to the idea that animals are intelligent. What is it with you people? Are you afraid that someone will give your job to a dolphin? It always amazes me that some people cannot accept that a dolphin is just an ANIMAL, and not the geniuses that fictional movies and fiction novels seem to say. until proven otherwise a dolphin will always be just another 2 int mammalian sea creature. i know that some animals are intelligent, i can easily live with that, but some people are blowing the dolphin's intelligence out of proportion, and that is what annoys me. The whole point of this thread was my sister wanted to play a dolphin character you should have said this a bit earlier, so let her if she wants to. like The Abominable Darkling said, awaken a dolphin, problem solved also, when you said: "They cannot fully comprehend spoken language, that is like saying mentally impaired humans can be good philosophers." there are many degrees of mentally impaired. a co-worker of mine lost the ability to do math a while back, but he's still a great computer technician (he still has great memory and spacial recognition. i forgot what he caught exactly, but a trip to africa and a mosquito bite later and he was "mentally impaired", and out of a job [he was an auditor, which is hard to do when you can't add numbers]. fortunately, he still had his computer training and was able to find work).
Aurotuli 11-16-05, 12:37 AM	I don't consider someone with an Int of 3 playable, and I do not allow such characters in my games as it is arguable how such a creature should be played. Actually, I don't even allow an Int of 5, but that's a minor issue since I use Point Buy 32 or 4d6 drop the lowest (reroll all if total bonus less than +2 or any ability rolled is 5 or less). The reason Animals are Int 1 or 2 is due to rolling 3d6 for all abilities. Even with 4d6 drop the lowest you are still (in the end) taking the numbers from only three dice. The lowest possible is result is 3, and I think the developers worried that if they granted animals more than Int 2 some players might have seen them as playable creatures - even if not awakened - causing all sorts of potential problems. As for animals and intelligence, I too see it as a continuum, but I house ruled it into a broader spectrum so that the division between sapient and sentient was less certain, less obvious. The prior guidelines I stated in my prior post (about a clever subtype) is more or less my original idea from a few years ago. It eventually developed into the following: - - - - - - Int --: The creature is mindless, an automaton reacting to stimuli, incapable of learning 'tricks'. Most worms, insects, and other invertabrets fall into this category. Some do not, but they tend to be the exception. As mindless creatures they are immune to mind affecting effects that seek to charm, although specific spells might seek to 'override' their instinctive reactions, dominating them like a puppet. Illusions that affect their senses / perceptions affect them normally, as it is Wisdom that deals with such. Enchantments have no effect unless both highly specific and directly seeking to control the body irregardless of presense of the mind (or lack thereof). A 'Dominate Insects' spell would be an example of such. Due to their mindless nature, these creatures recieve a +8 bonus against such attempts to dominate. Most fully minded individuals find little for their spells to work upon in the ganglia of such creatures that lack even the most rudiment of a brain. Int 1: The creature is capable of learning, of reacting in a similar manner to similar stimulus at a later period (such as octopi learning to open jars and later applying the skill to a newly found jar). They do not understand the concept of time, however, having no memory of the past or ability to imagine the future. They exist without shaped thought in the extreme now of the present moment. Distracted for a moment, they readily forget what they were doing / perceiving even a few seconds ago unless it is also part of the new moment (such as escaping a predator, following a scent, etc). Except for their ability to learn in the most basic sense of the word they are little beyond the automatons of Int -. Due to this, they receive a +4 bonus against attempts to use Enchantment against them. Examples of such creatures include advanced mollusks such as octopi and squids (but not less advanced ones, such as slugs and snails). It also includes most fish (including sharks) and amphibeans (frogs, newts), many reptiles (lizards, snakes) and earlier dinosaurs, and some few birds and mammals. Base desires form at this level. Int 2: A faint degree of memory begins to percolate through the creature's 'thoughts' - if they could be called such. Such 'thoughts' are little more than recalled images and sensations. No reason is affixed to such. They tend to learn basic patterns while in their youth - such as bird song. They are vaguely aware of the passing of the seasons and may react 'ahead of time' due to an intuition of the future - as they continue to lack the ability to fully conceptualize the idea of a future. The creature is more readily affected by most enchantments, and so receives only a +2 benefit against such - as much due to an alien mindset (compared with sapient beings) as due to a notable lack of mind. Most creatures not included in Int 1 are found to have Int 2, but some notable exceptions exist. Basic emotions form at this level. Int 3: The creature can recall - fuzzily - the past and consider the future. It cannot yet fully imagine the future. Rather it is in the inbetween state beyond merely being intuitively aware of it yet not yet able to fully imagine it. Squirrels, dogs, pigs, whales, and other 'clever' creatures fall into this category. They are readily able to learn from their experiences, readily able to realize when the current methods are not working - and consider slightly different ones. Entirely new methods, however, are likely encountered by chance rather than planning. Thus few squirrels cannot eventually reach the bird feeder, few pigs cannot eventually find a way out of their pen, and wolves can readily develop basic tactics against larger - and perhaps more clever - foes. A faint degree of language is possible - more than mere territorial or courting calls. Cultural concepts may occasionally arise, but only uncommonly do they pass on to the following generation. Thus almost never do any cultural developments last more than a couple generations - if that. Instead creatures with this communal level of complex thought patterns tend to be in a state of continuously forming and losing culture in the form of a multitude of individual life-time traditions that rarely pass on - to others of the same generation or to following generations. Complex emotions form at this level - and can sometimes be conveyed via a form of 'speech' (howls, barks, squeeks, etc, but usually a large part of this is body language). The creature is readily charmed or otherwise compelled by enchantments compared to their more mindless kin. They receive only a +1 bonus against such. Rare is the animal that advances beyond this level. Int 4: The creature can fully conceptualize the ideas of past and future, can recall past memories, and can imagine actions not yet taken - ie: consider future actions. Basic tool use is typically found at this level - sticks to poke, to act as clubs or supporting cane, rocks to strike nuts or foes, etc. With continuous direction, one of this Intellect may potentially follow basic orders entirely on their own (after some training). Basic language patterns begin to arise - 'food', 'home', 'danger', 'leaf', 'forest', 'ground', 'good', 'bad', etc. The creature does not understand abstract concepts, but it can understand what is pleasing / useful to it (good) and displeasing / harmful to it (bad). It can recognize itself in a mirror and react to the image presented. Most primates and some cetacians fall into this category. Basic cultural concepts are readily developed and passed on to following generations. Their ability to form basic language patterns removes the last constraint working against enchantments cast by more intellectual beings. Thus they receive no bonus against such magic. Note that self-awareness has arisen upon this level of intellect. Int 5: Even if raised in isolation, the creature will innately develop its own language. It readily comprehends basic patterns and can imagine concepts not yet encountered. Abstract thought is still somewhat beyond it, however. It has a mind akin to that of a very young human child - a toddler, or perhaps a year or two older. An adult creature with such a level of awareness can understand general commands / tasks - and carry them out - with little or no supervision. They can convey basic messages through gestures if not words (or sound patterns). The creature is fully self-conscious. What is noteworthy is that the creatures of this level of intellect are also others-conscious. They are aware that others are more than objects with which they interact. This does not necessarily mean that they care about the desires of others, but they are aware of such. Thus, this is the level of intellect where a conscious develops - the ability to understand that one's actions may negatively or positively affect another - and then act on such. The most complex emotions exist at this level - the ones that require an awareness and possibly and empathy towards others: agape, compassion, obligation, pity, contempt, spite, etc. Int 6: This is typically the level that differentiates beings from creatures. This is the typical minimum level at which complex socities become possible. Prior to this one may find highly advanced bands of chimps, but only upon this level may one find creatures capable of learning complex tasks (crafting basic stone tools [handax, scraper, etc], fire-making, etc) or learning complex - and even abstract - concepts. However, in a 'normal' Int 10 society such beings are seen as little better than children. While young this may be tolerated - even found cute - but among the adult members of an Int 10 society a being with only Int 6 is considered severely mentally retarded, incapable of living on their own or performing most tasks without supervision, often looked upon with a trace of pity or contempt. Simple tasks can be performed with ease once they are learned, but complex tasks - particularly ones involving abstract concepts - are difficult. Basic math (2 + 11, 14 - 6) is about the best one of this Int is likely to achieve. Reading is rarely possible except at the most minimum level (see spot run). They can converse as normal, but it is unlikely that they will understand (or possibly even know) complex words, and their speech patterns likely use a simple grammar and include few words of more than two or three syllables. Societies composed entire of such individuals, however, can readily exist in the wilderness - where the intellect grants a minor but significant boon over most other creatures, and complex abstract concepts are not necessarily needed. The ability to utilize basic math and reading may allow it to trade almost as normal with nearby towns (of those with higher Int). Note that Sense Motive and Bluff - the skills used most often when haggling over prices - are not affected by this level of Intellect. Thus the tribal man assigned the task of interaction with the townfolk may still bargain well while trading their furs and other items to the townsfolk. Note that it is around this level that simple views of the afterlife and basic arts and crafts - intended for other than tools - are first developed. Int 7: Beings with this level of Intellect typically are in need of guardianship. Among a 'normal' Int 10 society such a being is seen as so severely lacking as to be incapable of making decisions on its own. Typically such beings remain under the control of a parent, relative, or other guardian for most of their life. However, with time and experience they may eventually rise beyond this need - which is what truely separates them from those of the prior level of Int. Societies composed entire of this level of Intellect tend to vascillate between a level that seems almost brutishly barbaric to townsfolk and rural settlers and an almost 'normal' style of life. It is around this level that arts and crafts made not as tools but perhaps for symbolism or shear enjoyment of crafting develop. It is around this level that complex views of the afterlife begin to form, although it is not until the next level that such views become a common part of the culture (rather than only the perview of the shaman and his chosen apprentices). Int 8: This level of intellect is typically the least at which a being can get by without supervision or guardianship in a typical human society. They can find a job, keep to a schedule, perfom simple tasks with ease (particularly repetitious ones - if they are not prone to absentminded behavior [low Wis]). They have trouble with complex abstract ideas, but they can readily grasp the simple ones (the abstract concepts of good, evil, etc). They are typically regarded as 'slow' or 'lacking' by others in their community (presuming a 'normal' Int 10 society). Societies made entirely of such are typically very simple in structure (chief with his band, etc) and are characteristic of the stereotype 'barbarian', 'orc', etc tribe (as seen by townsfolk of 'normal' Int 10). Literacy and complex arts and crafts are uncommon but not unknown among such societies. They can readily plan years in advance, but such plans tend to be simple - often 'continue what we have always done'. Complex views of the afterlife exist, and the concept of deities begins to form (as opposed to mere spirits and sprites / fae). Int 9: In basic tasks one cannot readily distinguish whether this being is 'normal' or 'sub-normal'. They may speak a little slow, perhaps have some difficulty with complex abstract ideas that are new to it, and may need light monitoring when performing a long and complex non-repetitious tasks entirely on their own, but otherwise they are indistinguishable from 'normal'. Int 10: Human normal intellect. Int 11: In complex tasks they occationally are noted for the somewhat greater ease with which they perform, but otherwise they are rarely differentiated from 'normal'. Int 12: Readily recognized by others in their society as 'clever'. Those that meet the being only briefly, however, are unlikely to notice this. Societies that do not value high intellect - seeing the occational new ideas that arise as against traditions, etc - may view the individual negatively, but most of such Intellect (supposing normal or better Wis) readily see this and hide views that may otherwise cause waves. In organizations where intellectual merit may lead to advancement they tend to hold higher ranking positions. After this it tends to be more of the same. "A" is more clever than "B" who is more clever than normal "C." So "A" is 'very' clever. And so on. Around Int 14 the individual may be viewed as a 'clever' or 'precotious' child by those that value Int and as 'asking too many questions' and being 'too curious' by those that do not. Around 16 the difference is more acute. The individual is regarded as highly clever / intelligent even by those that meet them only briefly. Around 18 they are local legends - the types pre-supposed (in societies that value Int) as 'destined' for a high position (in the church, in the college, as an advisor to some high ranking lord, etc). Int 20 is beyond human norm and rarely encountered. They are almost as beyond the typical Int 10 individual as the Int 10 individual is beyond the most advanced animal (Int 5). They likely look with confusion upon many choices and views of their 'normal' counterparts - as they can readily see holes in the arguments, gaps in the views, generalities in the statements, and lack of foresight or consideration in the choices. They may choose to live somewhat apart (if possible) simply to distance themselves from a community of individuals they do not readily understand - and who rarely understand them. The more evil of such beings may, around this time, stop viewing most other individuals as true beings, for they see themselves as something 'beyond' those they typically encounter. In a certain narrow sense they may even be partly right, for they are twice beyond the Int 10 being - which itself is twice beyond the typical Int 5 creature. - - - - - - Thus, animals - mere creatures - are ranged from -- to 5, with beings existing from 6 onward. A character with a 6 or 7 Int would be difficult to play, but is considered possible. Dolphins, to get back on track with this thread, I have placed at Int 4. They may occationally have rare higher Int individuals (as is true for humanoids and other playable races), but the vast majority lack this scope of intellect. Of course, at Int 4 they are well beyond most other base creatures in the world. Only chimps (among real life creatures) would be placed higher - Int 5, typically.