Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WillRhodes 10-15-03, 01:45 AM	Thanks to the HD doubling effect of the zombie template, mid and high level zombies are practically impossible to turn by a cleric of the appropriate level. A zombie minotaur has 12 HD and is CR 4. On the other hand, a vampire minotaur has only 6 HD, but is CR 6. Since the vampire has turn resistance, it effectively has 10HD for purposes of turning. So, a level 6 cleric (maximum 10HD turn) has a chance of turning the CR 6 vampire but absolutely cannot turn the CR 4 zombie. Turning is broken and needs repair.
sandskimmer 10-15-03, 11:26 AM	Zombies are easier to kill than vamps, so not being able to turn a zombie shouldn't be a big deal, but I see your point. IMO, the CR of a vamp should be +3 or 4. Not that it would help much in this particular situation, but I also think this is just an unforseen side-effect of making skeletons & zombies into templates (which they should be). I've always thought the 3ed turning was broke from the get go. It's the one thing in the d20 game that I've never liked. It makes no sense. The previous versions of the game had turning done right. There's no reason it had to change with 3e. *gives up 2 cp*
edsonaoki 10-15-03, 04:40 PM	The previous versions of the game had turning done right. There's no reason it had to change with 3e. There were VERY good reasons to change. On 2E there was almost no monster advancement (or monsters with class levels) at all. If 2E were turning rules were still valid, a 20th-level vampire would be turned as easilly as a 5th-level vampire.
edsonaoki 10-15-03, 04:48 PM	High HD Zombies are more difficult to turn because they are more costly to create. A 6th-level spellcaster wouldn't spend 300 gp on something that would be turned by the first 4th-level cleric. If you find apropriate, you may change the undead creatures' turning resistances (for example, give turn resistance -2 for zombies, or +6 for vampires). But I see no need of changing the whole turn undead system.
Oberon_of_Avalon 10-15-03, 04:54 PM	I've never really encountered a situation where zombies needed turning. Sure, and evil cleric might want to command him some undead, but chances are he's the one that made the zombies. Clerics have some nice area of effect spells. They should only try to turn weak, annoying undead that won't be a problem and will only take up time, because the BBEG undead is most likely resistant to their turning attempts. A 12HD zombie at CR 4 is not weak and annoying, it can kill you if you sit trying in vain to turn it. The fighter should hack into it, the wizard should pelt it with spells, and the ranger should plug arrows into it. By the time you finally realize that you can't turn it, the thing's dead. Problem solved.
sandskimmer 10-15-03, 06:03 PM	There were VERY good reasons to change. On 2E there was almost no monster advancement (or monsters with class levels) at all. If 2E were turning rules were still valid, a 20th-level vampire would be turned as easilly as a 5th-level vampire. This is true. I should've been more specific in my post. What I felt should not have changed was the # of turning attempts. One attempt per undead, unlimited attempts per day. That makes sense. 3ed with its, "I'll keep turning the same undead until it digs out all the wax from its ears so it can hear me, and wipes all the mucos from its eyes so it can see my holy symbol" routine is ridiculous. Then it gets even more so when you've exhausted all your attempts on 1 undead and can't turn the next zombie that walks around the corner. "Sorry, my deity won't let me turn any more today!" Yeah, right. Either you can turn undead, or you can't. Either it works, or it never will. That just makes a ton more sense to me. Again, just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
Hurin 10-15-03, 06:14 PM	There are times when a cleric has to push the party fighter aside, roll up his sleeves and deal with the undead the "old-fashioned" way. :smirk: There are innumerable spells that enchant a cleric's weapon to do additional damage to the undead. Likewise there are also a variety of spells that are ranged and do increased damage to the living dead. If permitted in your campaign world the Divine feats from the Defenders of the Faith sourcebook can also lend themselves to successful destruction of the undead. Sometimes a cleric must not hide behind the shield of his faith, but must step forth to do battle with evil 'corps a corps'. ;)
Oberon_of_Avalon 10-15-03, 06:29 PM	Originally posted by sandskimmer 3ed with its, "I'll keep turning the same undead until it digs out all the wax from its ears so it can hear me, and wipes all the mucos from its eyes so it can see my holy symbol" routine is ridiculous. Then it gets even more so when you've exhausted all your attempts on 1 undead and can't turn the next zombie that walks around the corner. "Sorry, my deity won't let me turn any more today!" Yeah, right. This may be explained by saying that the human body cannot physically channel that much of a deity's divine power without suffering penalties, though I do agree that a truly benevolent deity wouldn't suddenly "abandon" its cleric by saying "Oh, you've exhausted all of your turning attempts on that vampire, and that lich is about to screw you over." It does balance things, but turning is only useful once in a while, unless you have an ability that allows you to expend a turning attempt for something else.
WillRhodes 10-15-03, 11:35 PM	The point I was trying to make is that turning undead becomes more and more difficult as the cleric goes up in levels, because turning is based on HD, not CR, and HD increase faster than CR. Compare this with SR, which is roughly based on 10+CR. A 20th level wizard facing a CR 20 monster with SR 30 and a 5th level wizard facing a CR 5 monster with SR 15 each have the same chance of overcoming the SR (assuming all else equal). Yes, there is one feat that increases a cleric's effective turning level by ONE. And the wizard can take a feat that increases his effective level v SR by TWO. Look at some of the high end undead, such as the Effigy in MM2. They're utterly impossible to turn. Not just tough, but impossible. The effigy has CR 17 and 27 HD, IIRC. A 17th level cleric can turn at best a 22 HD undead. (I also tend to agree that the "n times per day" limit seems a tad silly.)
The Abominable Darkling 10-16-03, 03:07 AM	I agree as well. The turning rules are just plain dumb. They suffer from a number of problems: High level undead pretty much have to have a ton of hit dice if they're to pose any challenge at all, which means they'll all be basically unturnable. The turning damage roll has a huge influence over the number turned at low levels while it has absolutely no effect at high levels. At low levels, clerics can turn every undead in an encounter (with a single attempt), but at high levels, clerics will only be able to turn one (if they're lucky). A 2nd-level cleric can destroy 1-hit-dice skeletons with his turning even though just one level ago all he could do was turn them. A 20th-level cleric, on the other hand, will never destroy anything worth any XP with his turns (barring access to the Sun domain). As it stands, turn resistance is really a non-ability. It only exists to compensate for the ill-considered turning system.I suggest replacing them with the following. When a cleric turns, it affects all undead within 60-feet. Each undead must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Cha modifier) or be turned. Undead whose total hit dice are 10 or more less than the cleric's level are destroyed instead of turned. An undead that makes the save is immune to that cleric's turning for 24 hours. Undead with turn resistance add it to their saving throw.
sandskimmer 10-16-03, 06:06 PM	The Abominable Darkling, You should be on the design staff. That solution is brilliant! WillRhodes, I guess I never noticed the disparity between HD & CR before. It does have a huge impact on the turning system!
split infinitude 10-16-03, 08:30 PM	That's very elegant. I've been trying to find a decent turning system for a long time. Only problem I see is that Dracula (fighter-based vampire) is much easier to turn than a wizard or cleric-based vampire. Hmmm. SOmething to work with, at least, though.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-16-03, 09:22 PM	Unfortunately, an uber-powerful lich could be turned by a 1st level cleric.
The Abominable Darkling 10-16-03, 10:14 PM	And that same lich could be distintegrated by a 1st-level wizard with a scroll. I don't think it's a problem. Even if the lich is turned, it's not the end of the world (he can teleport away and come back when it wears off). Besides, I really don't invision low level clerics throwing themselves at extremely powerful undead in the hopes that they roll a 1 on their saves.
edsonaoki 10-17-03, 08:15 AM	And that same lich could be distintegrated by a 1st-level wizard with a scroll. I don't think it's a problem. Even if the lich is turned, it's not the end of the world (he can teleport away and come back when it wears off). Besides, I really don't invision low level clerics throwing themselves at extremely powerful undead in the hopes that they roll a 1 on their saves. I liked the idea. If you think a lich shouldn't be turned by a 1st-level cleric, rule that saves against turn undead aren't subject to automatic sucess or failure chance. Also, the undead creature should add its turn resistance to its saving throw. Or else, it's not much different (a 12-HD zombie certainly may easilly have a better Will save than a 6-HD vampire).
detectevil 10-17-03, 08:17 AM	This does not mean that turning is broken. It means the zombie template is broken. When something works for every case, except one, the problem is the exception, not the rule.
The Abominable Darkling 10-17-03, 08:34 AM	It's not just the zombie template though. Most high level undead have the same problem. For example: Abyssal Ghoul (FF): CR 10, 16 HD—unturnable. Banshee (MM2): CR 17, 26 HD—unturnable. Crawling Head (FF): CR 20, 28 HD—unturnable. Deathbringer (MM2): CR 17, 30 HD—unturnable. Dreadwraith (MM): CR 11, 16 HD—unturnable. Famine Spirit (MM2): CR 19, 32 HD—unturnable. Nightcrawler (MM): CR 18, 25 HD—unturnable. Nightwalker (MM): CR 16, 21 HD—unturnable. Ulgurtasta (FF): CR 11, 17 HD—unturnable. There are more, but I think I've made my point. Granted, some of these actually could be turned (with difficulty) if they appeared in a multiple creature encounter, but others (like the deathbringer) can never be turned except by clerics of such high level that there's no point in turning them anyway.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-17-03, 08:44 AM	Originally posted by The Abominable Darkling I suggest replacing them with the following. When a cleric turns, it affects all undead within 60-feet. Each undead must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Cha modifier) or be turned. Undead whose total hit dice are 10 or more less than the cleric's level are destroyed instead of turned. An undead that makes the save is immune to that cleric's turning for 24 hours. Undead with turn resistance add it to their saving throw. hmm . . . if I had any players who had clerics, I'd SO use that! Wait, don't undead have good will saves though? It might not totally fix the high level undead being unturnable. Well, with your version, there's a small chance of a 1, so it's definately an improvement.
lukelightning 10-17-03, 09:10 AM	Maybe higher HD zombies and skellies need to have negative turn resistance, or something like that.
The Abominable Darkling 10-17-03, 10:23 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th Wait, don't undead have good will saves though? It might not totally fix the high level undead being unturnable. Well, with your version, there's a small chance of a 1, so it's definately an improvement. They do. If a cleric with 12 Cha tries to turn an undead with 10 Wis and hit dice equal to his cleric level, the undead will have a 50% chance of being turned. Generally, clerics have poor Charisma and undead have decent Wisdom and often have more hit dice than their CR, so in a single undead fight, the undead generally has a fair bit better than 50% chance to avoid the turning. In a multiple undead fight, a turning will usually affect about half of them, which seems about right to me.
Rawveggie 10-17-03, 02:42 PM	First of all, I like the suggested turn system, but I have a few points: Originally posted by The Abominable Darkling: Generally, clerics have poor Charisma... I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Charisma is the only component of the turning check besides a d20 and I'd think more clerics would have a Charisma above a 12 or, if they don't, they'd know that they aren't going to be great at turning. In which case it should come as no surprise if they do suck. My second point is regarding turning damage. Shouldn't turning damage be modified as well? Example: If I am 15th level cleric that is in combat with two CR 15 undead I have no hope of defeating the second one with my turn damage and in some cases only a slim chance of defeating the first one (Deathbringer being a prime example). Does that sound right? I ask because at lower levels the +2d6 can take out a good number of undead of the same CR that the cleric is most likely fighting (based off the idea that low CR creatures usually have low HD and in most combats CR<=APL). Why shouldn't the turn damage increase in the same manner? I don't like the argument "well, because they're stronger undead" because that just lends to the idea that cleric's are even more front-loaded. Thoughts?
sandskimmer 10-17-03, 05:07 PM	My second point is regarding turning damage. Shouldn't turning damage be modified as well? I don't think so, because it's not just 2d6. It's 2d6 + cleric level + Cha mod. Therefore, high level clerics automatically deal lots of turning damage.
JustKim 10-17-03, 07:03 PM	At higher levels your level bonus to turning damage may be enough to turn an undead of equal HD, but the 2d6+Cha becomes insignificant and often isn't even enough to turn a trio of low-HD undead between you and what you wanted to turn in the first place.
The Abominable Darkling 10-18-03, 03:13 AM	Generally, clerics have poor Charisma...Originally posted by Rawveggie I'm not sure I'd agree with this.In my experience, Charisma tends to be a rather low priority for clerics. Physical stats and Wisdom almost always come first. Even the canonic cleric, Jozan (who is a truly terrible cleric build in my opinion), assigns his highest three scores to Wisdom, Strength, and Constitution.My second point is regarding turning damage. Shouldn't turning damage be modified as well?I'm a little confused by this. Are you still talking about my alternate system? That system does away with both the turning check and the turning damage roll.
JL3712 10-20-03, 02:35 AM	The alternate turning system seems to be very good and simple (it seems easier to use than the standard one). What is the limit per day on it though? Is it an unlimited ability or 3/day + Cha modifier like the original ? And regarding the area of effect, is it a 60 ft. radius from the caster? or would it be simpler if it was a 60 ft. cone like the cone of cold spell. Or on the other hand would it be like the cone of cold spell and have its area of effect extend farther as the cleric rose in level (thus not only increasing the amount of energy within the turning effect but also its reach). If altered in such ways new feats could be made to provide effects similar to metamagics like extend turning or turning focus (adding 1 or 2 to the turn DC). Also would it be subject to spell resisance or antimagic fields? Which follows, is it a spell-like or supernatural ability?
True Avatar 10-20-03, 03:13 AM	Brother Joachim "Liches are my ******s" Smackdown Originally posted by Carpe DM Editor’s Note: I can’t post the original post, and the subsequent fixes, so I’ll just post the closest version to a corrected maximized version. Please see the original post for detailed analysis. Using your 11th Level example, we have: Clr 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 5 TURNING CHECK: +3 (consecrate. +6 if you use the shrine / haversack trick) +10 (heighten--notice I'm not using the whole bit, just enough to get +19) +6 (charisma) +2 (glory) -2 (empower) --- +19 to turn check. This guarantees a +4. Then we calculate effective level. EFFECTIVE LEVEL: +4 (turning check result) +2 (sacred armor) +2 (sacred shield) +4 (amulet of turning) +4 (rod of authority) +11 (level) --- 27, effective level. So, the smack will destroy anything of 27th level or less. Finally, we do turning damage. Effective level does NOT plug into turning damage, but cleric / turning prestige class levels do. And since those magic items which added to effective level also add to damage, we count them again. Note that the turning check bonus to effective level DOESN'T seem to carry across. It simply says to add your level, not your effective level. +2 (Sacred armor) +2 (Sacred shield) +4 (rod of authority) +4 (amulet of turning) +11 (level) +6 (charisma: I know you used +9; this is adjustable) -10 (heighten) +2d6 (base) +2d6 (empower) +1d6 (glory) --- 5d6 + 19, for an average of 19+ 17.5 = 36.5. Note that this framework would only be used if the cleric were trying to wipe out a very high level monster (27 hit dice) and didn't care about damage. If we were going after our average 11th level monster, you'd drop the heighten turning, and go for the gusto on the turning damage. In that case you'd do 5d6 + 29= 17.5 + 29 = 46.5 turning damage of hit dice. best, Carpe Thats from the ENB, something tells me someone that wants to turn/destroy things very well can if he's made to do it. I love the fact that an 11th level character can make dust out of an undead that has an effective 27 HD for turning (HD+turn resistance)
The Abominable Darkling 10-20-03, 07:02 AM	Originally posted by JL3712 What is the limit per day on it though? Is it an unlimited ability or 3/day + Cha modifier like the original ? And regarding the area of effect, is it a 60 ft. radius from the caster? or would it be simpler if it was a 60 ft. cone like the cone of cold spell. Or on the other hand would it be like the cone of cold spell and have its area of effect extend farther as the cleric rose in level (thus not only increasing the amount of energy within the turning effect but also its reach). If altered in such ways new feats could be made to provide effects similar to metamagics like extend turning or turning focus (adding 1 or 2 to the turn DC). Also would it be subject to spell resisance or antimagic fields? Which follows, is it a spell-like or supernatural ability? The only thing changed is the turning check and the turning damage roll; everything else remains the same. So, you can turn 3 + Cha mod/day, it affects a 60-foot radius around the cleric and is blocked by full cover, and it is a supernatural ability (and thus is not affected by spell resistance but is affected by anti-magic fields).
Rawveggie 10-20-03, 01:15 PM	Originally posted by The Abominable Darkling I'm a little confused by this. Are you still talking about my alternate system? That system does away with both the turning check and the turning damage roll. You want to eliminate turning damage with your system and have it just come down to the save? That seems overpowered. As you pointed out the odds are that 50% of the undead could resist the save but that's only an average. There is also the chance that you could turn every single undead within 60 feet which is overpowered IMO. No, actually I just looked at some examples and it appears your method is decent for undead in the core books. What about the examples with high HD undead like the Deathbringer, what kind of Will save do they have? Well, I'm still not completely comfortable with it working on all undead within 60 ft. What if there are 100 undead around me? I think there should be a limit on how many undead it could affect. Powerful turning should be the result of a feat or focus on turning, not on a save that could go either way.
Rotipher 10-20-03, 01:39 PM	One trick that might be cool would be to let two PCs with the Turn Undead power gang up on the same mega-undead target. If they both succeed on their Turning checks, they could stack the HD of Turning damage they inflict, potentially overwhelming a single foe that neither one can tackle alone. Not sure how balanced that'd be, but it's just a thought....
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-20-03, 09:01 PM	I like the alternate turning method ... similar to something I use IMC. There zombies have penalties (based on size) and liches, vampires and the like have bonuses. Liches have huge bonuses, in fact. I use Sean K Reynold's vampires, which don't do silly things like drain energy with their fists.