easy question [Archive] - Wizards Community

easy question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
paradox1995
01-12-07, 10:46 AM Hey guys,

Im horrible at making my own mosters, and I dont have my MM w/ me. Would a wight (CR4) with one level of fighter be considered CR5?:confused:

thanks in advance
AlanBruce
01-12-07, 02:30 PM Yes it would.
Some_call_me_Tim
01-12-07, 03:23 PM Im horrible at making my own mosters, and I dont have my MM w/ me. Would a wight (CR4) with one level of fighter be considered CR5?:confused: A couple of small points: a wight is CR3, advancement should be extra HD not levels. (4 extra HD is only a +1 CR adjustment).

Advanced Wight
Size/Type: Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 8d12 (52 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Create spawn, energy drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 12, Con --, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16
Skills: Hide +12, Listen +14, Move Silently +20, Spot +14
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Natural Armor
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or pack (6-11)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: --
Angelflesh
01-12-07, 04:40 PM Libris Mortis talks about Wights and other undead having class levels, and even undead PrCs. So no, they don't have to advance by HD.
paradox1995
01-12-07, 06:08 PM so an advanced wight with one level of fighter would be a CR 5 creature then?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
01-12-07, 06:18 PM so an advanced wight with one level of fighter would be a CR 5 creature then?

Yes. As would a regular wight with two levels of Fighter. The 3.5 CR increases from advancement are wonky, but still better than the abomination that was 3.0 in that regard.
paradox1995
01-12-07, 06:45 PM Thanks guys You rawk ! :D
Some_call_me_Tim
01-13-07, 01:53 PM Libris Mortis talks about Wights and other undead having class levels, and even undead PrCs. So no, they don't have to advance by HD.True, I did say "should" not must. Part of the reason for advancing HD rather than levels is they don't always get the best bang for the buck so to speak from class levels. d10 HD vs. d12 for example. A normal wight with a level of fighter and an advanced wight are both CR 4 but the wight fighter is much easier to turn (5 HD vs. 8 HD). Another disadvantage of a level of fighter is weapons are less than useful as only the wight's slam attack does level drain. If you do use character levels don't forget to change to the elite array which is the real benefit of having a character level. I seem to remember reading an article recently about this but can't find it.

For comparison:
1st-level Wight Fighter
Size/Type: Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 4d12+1d10 (31 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, +6 armor, +2 shield), touch 11, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d4+3 plus energy drain) or mwk longsword +7 melee (1d8+3)
Full Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d4+3 plus energy drain) or mwk longsword +7 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Create spawn, energy drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +6
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con Ų, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 18
Skills: Hide +1, Intimidate +6, Listen +11, Move Silently +9, Spot +11
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack

Which of the two would you rather face? Better armor vs. better hit points, hide and speed. Slightly higher attack for the fighter type vs. susceptibility to turning. Depends on the situation really. That's why they work out to the same CR.
runestar
01-13-07, 01:59 PM 1 class lv would be good for the elite stat array it grants....:)
1 lv of sorc can be deadly when you give it buff spells like mage armour and shield...
Ah the fun of 1-dips...:D
drakkonflye
01-13-07, 09:22 PM d10 HD vs. d12

Actually, all HD for undead are d12, regardless of whether those are for undead monster levels or for class levels.
KhalaKyRelai
01-13-07, 09:53 PM Actually, all HD for undead are d12, regardless of whether those are for undead monster levels or for class levels.

Can you site that?
I thought only class levels for certain undead were d12, like liches and vampires.
runestar
01-13-07, 09:57 PM Can you site that?
I thought only class levels for certain undead were d12, like liches and vampires.
And you are absolutely correct.:)
Actually, all HD for undead are d12, regardless of whether those are for undead monster levels or for class levels.
They use the class's base HD unless explicitly stated otherwise.
I wish there was some way I could clear up this misconception all at one go...:(

So if you wanted a cr5 wight NPC, that would work out to a wight advanced to 8 undead HD, with 1 class lv(or 2 if you use a non-associated class).:)
drakkonflye
01-13-07, 10:51 PM From SRD:
Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Features: An undead creature has the following features.
—12-sided Hit Dice.

Only three undead listed in the SRD are templates, but when these templates are applied to a creature with classes, those class HD change to d12 regarless of class:

Ghost: Hit Dice: All current and future Hit Dice become d12s.

Lich: Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

Vampire: Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

Then again, these two tempplates lose class HD altogether:

Skeleton: Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s.

Zombie: Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. (I'm pretty sure the HD listed for the Minotaur and Gray Render zombies is supposed to be d12s and the d8s are typos)

Unless you use the bone creature and corpse creature templates from BoVD, in which case they retain the class levels but all HD become d12, regardless of class (can't quote THAT book directly though since it's not SRD :P )

The rules seem to contridict each other concerning undead with class levels because of this one line under Increasing Hit Dice in the Improving Monsters sections of the MM and SRD:
Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type.

I think this is meant to refer to all saves, skills, feats, and other class features, and not Hit Dice. In the case of HD, the first rule regarding undead takes precedence: all HD are d12s.

Unfortunately, the only other books I could reference to confirm this I can't quote because they aren't SRD. There's a particular line from Libris Mortis that comes to mind...:rolleyes:

Ah well, I'm pretty sure half of you will keep insisting I'm wrong anyways, so all I have to say is: "To each, his own."
Some_call_me_Tim
01-14-07, 11:12 AM I found the article about HD size. It was a recent 'Ask Wizards' article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061221a).

Basically, the answer is what Runestar said: They use the class's base HD unless explicitly stated otherwise.
Which in this case means d10s for wight with fighter levels. Of course, 1 hp/level isn't gonna break the game. But on the other hand a wight sorcerer might be a little butch when compared with a non-undead one.

I wish there was some way I could clear up this misconception all at one go...You can now point to the Ask Wizards article; which some people think is about as accurate as a Ouija Board.
drakkonflye
01-14-07, 04:55 PM Enh....I have my problems with so0me of the Sage Advice articles; I've seen too many turnabouts on answers. My advice: just go with what you think is best. If you're dealing with a strong party, playing the HD out as d12s might work better to create a stronger challenge. As it's been said, a couple extra hit points don't usually make that much of a difference anyways. Personally, if I was going up against and undead sorcerer or wizard, I'd be more worried about its spells than how many hit points it has.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paradox1995 01-12-07, 10:46 AM	Hey guys, Im horrible at making my own mosters, and I dont have my MM w/ me. Would a wight (CR4) with one level of fighter be considered CR5?:confused: thanks in advance
AlanBruce 01-12-07, 02:30 PM	Yes it would.
Some_call_me_Tim 01-12-07, 03:23 PM	Im horrible at making my own mosters, and I dont have my MM w/ me. Would a wight (CR4) with one level of fighter be considered CR5?:confused: A couple of small points: a wight is CR3, advancement should be extra HD not levels. (4 extra HD is only a +1 CR adjustment). Advanced Wight Size/Type: Medium Undead Hit Dice: 8d12 (52 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+5 Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain) Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Create spawn, energy drain Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +7 Abilities: Str 12, Dex 12, Con --, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16 Skills: Hide +12, Listen +14, Move Silently +20, Spot +14 Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Natural Armor Environment: Any Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or pack (6-11) Challenge Rating: 4 Treasure: None Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment: --
Angelflesh 01-12-07, 04:40 PM	Libris Mortis talks about Wights and other undead having class levels, and even undead PrCs. So no, they don't have to advance by HD.
paradox1995 01-12-07, 06:08 PM	so an advanced wight with one level of fighter would be a CR 5 creature then?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-12-07, 06:18 PM	so an advanced wight with one level of fighter would be a CR 5 creature then? Yes. As would a regular wight with two levels of Fighter. The 3.5 CR increases from advancement are wonky, but still better than the abomination that was 3.0 in that regard.
paradox1995 01-12-07, 06:45 PM	Thanks guys You rawk ! :D
Some_call_me_Tim 01-13-07, 01:53 PM	Libris Mortis talks about Wights and other undead having class levels, and even undead PrCs. So no, they don't have to advance by HD.True, I did say "should" not must. Part of the reason for advancing HD rather than levels is they don't always get the best bang for the buck so to speak from class levels. d10 HD vs. d12 for example. A normal wight with a level of fighter and an advanced wight are both CR 4 but the wight fighter is much easier to turn (5 HD vs. 8 HD). Another disadvantage of a level of fighter is weapons are less than useful as only the wight's slam attack does level drain. If you do use character levels don't forget to change to the elite array which is the real benefit of having a character level. I seem to remember reading an article recently about this but can't find it. For comparison: 1st-level Wight Fighter Size/Type: Medium Undead Hit Dice: 4d12+1d10 (31 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares) Armor Class: 23 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, +6 armor, +2 shield), touch 11, flat-footed 22 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6 Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d4+3 plus energy drain) or mwk longsword +7 melee (1d8+3) Full Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d4+3 plus energy drain) or mwk longsword +7 melee (1d8+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Create spawn, energy drain Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +6 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con Ų, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 18 Skills: Hide +1, Intimidate +6, Listen +11, Move Silently +9, Spot +11 Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack Which of the two would you rather face? Better armor vs. better hit points, hide and speed. Slightly higher attack for the fighter type vs. susceptibility to turning. Depends on the situation really. That's why they work out to the same CR.
runestar 01-13-07, 01:59 PM	1 class lv would be good for the elite stat array it grants....:) 1 lv of sorc can be deadly when you give it buff spells like mage armour and shield... Ah the fun of 1-dips...:D
drakkonflye 01-13-07, 09:22 PM	d10 HD vs. d12 Actually, all HD for undead are d12, regardless of whether those are for undead monster levels or for class levels.
KhalaKyRelai 01-13-07, 09:53 PM	Actually, all HD for undead are d12, regardless of whether those are for undead monster levels or for class levels. Can you site that? I thought only class levels for certain undead were d12, like liches and vampires.
runestar 01-13-07, 09:57 PM	Can you site that? I thought only class levels for certain undead were d12, like liches and vampires. And you are absolutely correct.:) Actually, all HD for undead are d12, regardless of whether those are for undead monster levels or for class levels. They use the class's base HD unless explicitly stated otherwise. I wish there was some way I could clear up this misconception all at one go...:( So if you wanted a cr5 wight NPC, that would work out to a wight advanced to 8 undead HD, with 1 class lv(or 2 if you use a non-associated class).:)
drakkonflye 01-13-07, 10:51 PM	From SRD: Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. Features: An undead creature has the following features. —12-sided Hit Dice. Only three undead listed in the SRD are templates, but when these templates are applied to a creature with classes, those class HD change to d12 regarless of class: Ghost: Hit Dice: All current and future Hit Dice become d12s. Lich: Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s. Vampire: Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s. Then again, these two tempplates lose class HD altogether: Skeleton: Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. Zombie: Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. (I'm pretty sure the HD listed for the Minotaur and Gray Render zombies is supposed to be d12s and the d8s are typos) Unless you use the bone creature and corpse creature templates from BoVD, in which case they retain the class levels but all HD become d12, regardless of class (can't quote THAT book directly though since it's not SRD :P ) The rules seem to contridict each other concerning undead with class levels because of this one line under Increasing Hit Dice in the Improving Monsters sections of the MM and SRD: Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. I think this is meant to refer to all saves, skills, feats, and other class features, and not Hit Dice. In the case of HD, the first rule regarding undead takes precedence: all HD are d12s. Unfortunately, the only other books I could reference to confirm this I can't quote because they aren't SRD. There's a particular line from Libris Mortis that comes to mind...:rolleyes: Ah well, I'm pretty sure half of you will keep insisting I'm wrong anyways, so all I have to say is: "To each, his own."
Some_call_me_Tim 01-14-07, 11:12 AM	I found the article about HD size. It was a recent 'Ask Wizards' article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061221a). Basically, the answer is what Runestar said: They use the class's base HD unless explicitly stated otherwise. Which in this case means d10s for wight with fighter levels. Of course, 1 hp/level isn't gonna break the game. But on the other hand a wight sorcerer might be a little butch when compared with a non-undead one. I wish there was some way I could clear up this misconception all at one go...You can now point to the Ask Wizards article; which some people think is about as accurate as a Ouija Board.
drakkonflye 01-14-07, 04:55 PM	Enh....I have my problems with so0me of the Sage Advice articles; I've seen too many turnabouts on answers. My advice: just go with what you think is best. If you're dealing with a strong party, playing the HD out as d12s might work better to create a stronger challenge. As it's been said, a couple extra hit points don't usually make that much of a difference anyways. Personally, if I was going up against and undead sorcerer or wizard, I'd be more worried about its spells than how many hit points it has.