ECL, and how it doesnt work. [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL, and how it doesnt work. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mo34
06-01-04, 11:27 PM I had one of My PC's characters die, and he decided to try something new. A vampire character. Now, all my other characters were playing common races, so i was not used to ECL, and i read up on it. The PCs in question were level 9, and the rules say that that a level on Vampire Fighter is Equal to any of them.
Your average PC melee character, by level 6, has an AC in the low 20's, and an Attack Bonus of about 6+3+1 for the weapon, for a total of 12. She'll have about 14 con, avg, so that translates to 36 + 18 health, for a total of 56 health. Youre Vampire, with the same starting ability score, has a BAB of 1, and 6 strenght mod, for a total of 7. He wants to try out his energy drain power, so is fighitng unarmed. He has 12 health. Now damage reduction and fast healing help to counterbalance the indifference in health, but my NPCs often are overcautious, carrying a dose of silversheen, and any NPC's worth his salt will have a magic weapon at level 9.
The Vampire, even though he has expressed interest in playing a Fighter, is forced to fall back on his special abilities. Dominate person being the only one that will make a real difference in the fight. Now, unfortunately for the PC, he set himself with a substandard Cha score, and is promptly dispatched by the NPC, crushing his idealism.
One way to balance this would be to remove the silversheen, but im my campaign, there are lots of Vampires and Lycanthropes, so any normal NPC who values his life will try to counter this.
In an attempt to make it equal, I am thinking of Treating Vampire as a Prestige Class, granting it progression noted in Savage Species (or whereever i got that progression), and BAB, HD, and Saves as Undead.
Your thoughts?
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-02-04, 12:21 PM Wow. A triple post.

Anyways, Vampires get so much STUFF that they are well worth LA +8. DR, improved HD, flight, shapeshifting, etc.
God_in_his_Heaven
06-02-04, 01:55 PM A vampire has amazing abilities that make it worth the +8 adj to it's level.

It gets +6 natural armor, tons of spell-like abilities, the 2-level energy drain, natural weapons, damage resistance 10/silver AND magic (dont forget, this means you need both silver and magic to overcome this, not just one of them). A lot of monsters dont use weapons (other then natural weapons). a +8 Racial bonus on 7 different skills and 5 bonus feats.

Trust me, you dont want to lower the ECL of a vampire, you'll regrett it.
TWG_Prometheus
06-02-04, 02:37 PM They're right, but that doesn't make it any less hard on your PC. Vampires have a difficult time just because of that +8 level adjustment, and while I'm not 100% certain that +8 is justified, I'd be very cautious about changing it. The PC in question will likely have to choose their tactics very carefully if they want to survive as a bloodsucker. It should get a lot better for them after they take their next class level and get the solidarity of a second level's worth of HP.

If they're really having that much trouble with combat, try some roleplaying situations to get them enough xp to level up, and the vampire will work better. They may want to remake with a better Charisma though. If possible, they should be created in a Desecration/Unhallowed altar spell zone to get the advantage of extra HP that all undead need so badly. (I'd consider cheating just a bit as a DM to give a PC with massive level adjustments +2 HP per level)

It might not fit your player's preferences, but they may want to consider something other than Fighter, as well. Many other classes give Vampires tools they will need to survive. A Vampire Ranger (Hide/Move Silently + full BAB + TWF with slam/weapon?) comes to mind as a good choice. Sorcerers who naturally don't want to be hit and benefit even further from a good Cha seem a good selection as well. Remember, their hit die will be d12 regardless of their class selection.

I haven't played one myself, so I wouldn't really know, but an example New Vampire's Survival Guide would probably look something like:

Besides the obvious issues (Sunlight, Running Water, Holy Water, ect.)

1. Exploit your damage reduction (run away from those who can bypass it.)
2. Suck blood. Regaining HP is cool. If you're a good guy somehow, get over it for now...at least while you're in combat.
3. Ambush your enemies and give them negative levels before they can react. Applying silversheen provokes an attack of opportunity. (I think) This gives you more HP as well. It's very nice.
4. Shapechange and escape. At least for now you can't survive pitched battles. You also fast heal, so withdrawing from combat even for a little while is very beneficial.
5. Rely on the Children of the Night. They can flank, Aid Another, attack, and generally take damage for you. Call them before a battle whenever possible.
lostinabook247
06-02-04, 02:38 PM Also, the effective "can't die from normal means if within 9 miles of its coffin" bit is also huge if you plan on having PCs dying before True Ressurection becomes a viable option. Also, it is a bit extreme to have an LA +8 for ECL 9, because 1 HD vs 9 is a much bigger difference than say 9 vs 18.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
06-02-04, 03:46 PM Originally posted by mo34
I had one of My PC's characters die, and he decided to try something new. A vampire character. Now, all my other characters were playing common races, so i was not used to ECL, and i read up on it. The PCs in question were level 9, and the rules say that that a level on Vampire Fighter is Equal to any of them.

Don't forget that a vampire has to have at least 5 class levels and/or racial hitdice. In short, you can't have a 1st level vampire fighter.
TWG_Prometheus
06-02-04, 03:54 PM Those rules are only about a vampire creating spawn. Any other means (curse, ritual, whatever else) doesn't regard those rules in the slightest. In addition, there are Savage Species rules that could allow a level 9 character to sacrifice levels to become a level 1 vampire.

In one sense, the 5 HD minimum for a vampire is correct, but only for the create spawn ability. Conversely the rules are silent about an actual restriction on the minimum HD for a vampire. I'd rule zero it in a heartbeat if I felt so inclined.
mo34
06-02-04, 08:51 PM thanks for the advice. I recommend for him to remake with a decent cha though, or perhpas as a different class. (That incident against the NPC fighter happened, and he needs to remake again) he's a little annoyed, but still wants a vampire.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mo34 06-01-04, 11:27 PM	I had one of My PC's characters die, and he decided to try something new. A vampire character. Now, all my other characters were playing common races, so i was not used to ECL, and i read up on it. The PCs in question were level 9, and the rules say that that a level on Vampire Fighter is Equal to any of them. Your average PC melee character, by level 6, has an AC in the low 20's, and an Attack Bonus of about 6+3+1 for the weapon, for a total of 12. She'll have about 14 con, avg, so that translates to 36 + 18 health, for a total of 56 health. Youre Vampire, with the same starting ability score, has a BAB of 1, and 6 strenght mod, for a total of 7. He wants to try out his energy drain power, so is fighitng unarmed. He has 12 health. Now damage reduction and fast healing help to counterbalance the indifference in health, but my NPCs often are overcautious, carrying a dose of silversheen, and any NPC's worth his salt will have a magic weapon at level 9. The Vampire, even though he has expressed interest in playing a Fighter, is forced to fall back on his special abilities. Dominate person being the only one that will make a real difference in the fight. Now, unfortunately for the PC, he set himself with a substandard Cha score, and is promptly dispatched by the NPC, crushing his idealism. One way to balance this would be to remove the silversheen, but im my campaign, there are lots of Vampires and Lycanthropes, so any normal NPC who values his life will try to counter this. In an attempt to make it equal, I am thinking of Treating Vampire as a Prestige Class, granting it progression noted in Savage Species (or whereever i got that progression), and BAB, HD, and Saves as Undead. Your thoughts?
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-02-04, 12:21 PM	Wow. A triple post. Anyways, Vampires get so much STUFF that they are well worth LA +8. DR, improved HD, flight, shapeshifting, etc.
God_in_his_Heaven 06-02-04, 01:55 PM	A vampire has amazing abilities that make it worth the +8 adj to it's level. It gets +6 natural armor, tons of spell-like abilities, the 2-level energy drain, natural weapons, damage resistance 10/silver AND magic (dont forget, this means you need both silver and magic to overcome this, not just one of them). A lot of monsters dont use weapons (other then natural weapons). a +8 Racial bonus on 7 different skills and 5 bonus feats. Trust me, you dont want to lower the ECL of a vampire, you'll regrett it.
TWG_Prometheus 06-02-04, 02:37 PM	They're right, but that doesn't make it any less hard on your PC. Vampires have a difficult time just because of that +8 level adjustment, and while I'm not 100% certain that +8 is justified, I'd be very cautious about changing it. The PC in question will likely have to choose their tactics very carefully if they want to survive as a bloodsucker. It should get a lot better for them after they take their next class level and get the solidarity of a second level's worth of HP. If they're really having that much trouble with combat, try some roleplaying situations to get them enough xp to level up, and the vampire will work better. They may want to remake with a better Charisma though. If possible, they should be created in a Desecration/Unhallowed altar spell zone to get the advantage of extra HP that all undead need so badly. (I'd consider cheating just a bit as a DM to give a PC with massive level adjustments +2 HP per level) It might not fit your player's preferences, but they may want to consider something other than Fighter, as well. Many other classes give Vampires tools they will need to survive. A Vampire Ranger (Hide/Move Silently + full BAB + TWF with slam/weapon?) comes to mind as a good choice. Sorcerers who naturally don't want to be hit and benefit even further from a good Cha seem a good selection as well. Remember, their hit die will be d12 regardless of their class selection. I haven't played one myself, so I wouldn't really know, but an example New Vampire's Survival Guide would probably look something like: Besides the obvious issues (Sunlight, Running Water, Holy Water, ect.) 1. Exploit your damage reduction (run away from those who can bypass it.) 2. Suck blood. Regaining HP is cool. If you're a good guy somehow, get over it for now...at least while you're in combat. 3. Ambush your enemies and give them negative levels before they can react. Applying silversheen provokes an attack of opportunity. (I think) This gives you more HP as well. It's very nice. 4. Shapechange and escape. At least for now you can't survive pitched battles. You also fast heal, so withdrawing from combat even for a little while is very beneficial. 5. Rely on the Children of the Night. They can flank, Aid Another, attack, and generally take damage for you. Call them before a battle whenever possible.
lostinabook247 06-02-04, 02:38 PM	Also, the effective "can't die from normal means if within 9 miles of its coffin" bit is also huge if you plan on having PCs dying before True Ressurection becomes a viable option. Also, it is a bit extreme to have an LA +8 for ECL 9, because 1 HD vs 9 is a much bigger difference than say 9 vs 18.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-02-04, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by mo34 I had one of My PC's characters die, and he decided to try something new. A vampire character. Now, all my other characters were playing common races, so i was not used to ECL, and i read up on it. The PCs in question were level 9, and the rules say that that a level on Vampire Fighter is Equal to any of them. Don't forget that a vampire has to have at least 5 class levels and/or racial hitdice. In short, you can't have a 1st level vampire fighter.
TWG_Prometheus 06-02-04, 03:54 PM	Those rules are only about a vampire creating spawn. Any other means (curse, ritual, whatever else) doesn't regard those rules in the slightest. In addition, there are Savage Species rules that could allow a level 9 character to sacrifice levels to become a level 1 vampire. In one sense, the 5 HD minimum for a vampire is correct, but only for the create spawn ability. Conversely the rules are silent about an actual restriction on the minimum HD for a vampire. I'd rule zero it in a heartbeat if I felt so inclined.
mo34 06-02-04, 08:51 PM	thanks for the advice. I recommend for him to remake with a decent cha though, or perhpas as a different class. (That incident against the NPC fighter happened, and he needs to remake again) he's a little annoyed, but still wants a vampire.