Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Simbul 01-17-05, 07:53 AM	Exactly as the title asks, what is (or should be) the ECL for a Solar, either as a cohort or a Player Character?
Starmage21 01-17-05, 08:49 AM	dont have savage species on me right now, but start with this: 23 Base - Hit dice +3 - Wish/Miracle as a spell-like +1 Outsider Type +1 10' reach (actually being a large or bigger creature isnt worth the level adjustment, its the reach surprisingly)
Starmage21 01-17-05, 10:10 AM	to finish the calculations: +4 Natural Armor (21 Natural Armor) +2 Unbalanced Ability Scores (super high statistics, +18 STR, +10 DEX, +10 CON, +12 INT, +14 WIS, +14 CHA) +2 Fly speed with good maneuverability +1 Natural Attack (slam, 2d8+13) +0 Skills & Feats (nothing out of the ordinary here) +1 some spell-likes usable at will (since a 23rd level caster could have the same abilities, his spell-likes are worth NOTHING!) +0 Spells as a 20th level cleric (again worth nothing, even when combined with his spell-likes +1 Spell Resistance +1 Energy Resistances (Elec 10, fire 10) +2 Immunity to Acid and Cold (effectively greater than 20 i guess, no entries for energy immunities) +1 DR 15/epic and Evil +1 Regen 15 Everything else can be duplicated easily by class or racial abilities of a 23rd level anything, so its worth nothing Total level adjustment +21 Total ECL (Level Adjust +Hit Dice) makes a Solar a 44th level character.
JasperDm 01-17-05, 10:50 PM	Boy, you figure a 44 ECL? I wouldn't have gone that far at a guess. I'll be posting a second opinion as this is a topic I've mentally batted around, but never had the motivation to pin to the table.
Dartanel 01-18-05, 12:48 AM	No, that sounds about right, the more powerful specials-oriented creatures tend to have LA nearly equal to their HD.
BelRex 01-18-05, 01:27 AM	Heya. I thought the ELC of the Solar was printed in an article in Dragon Magizine 293, and it was 36. It was also posted for the 3.0, not the 3.5 version of the Solar. To compare it, the Tulani from the BoED is an 18 HD +10 LA Eladrin and the planetar from the same issue is listed as 14 HD and +14 LA. Also the base solar only has 22 HD, not 23. When do you think some of those abilities would start to become a hinderance rather than an asset? If you are playing as a 44th level char, and your SR is only 30..would it really be worth a level? Or the outsider type, when does it become useless, or perhaps a hinderance..because you can be banished so easily? Those resistances at higher levels aren't worth an LA, usually because you could find a cheaper wonderous item to replicate it. Just some thoughts :P
JasperDm 01-18-05, 01:47 AM	Yes, they did post ECLs for most every even potentially playable monster in the MM...for 3.0. Then they went and tweaked the monsters. So, while those numbers are still useful ballpark figures, they can no longer be depended upon for solid representation.
PhaedrusXY 01-18-05, 02:15 AM	I don't think I would consider it playable at ECL 43 or 44, but that sounds about right according to WotC standards (which usually makes high LA creatures effectively unplayable). I think the 36 number sounds more reasonable, if you're looking to actually make it playable. I mean heck, at Epic levels you can just Shapechange into a Solar and get alot of those benefits for the cost of a 9th level spell (either your own or a custom magic item). Even 36 might be too high, if you want to be competitive with an equal level character with a LA +0 race.
Nuntius128 01-18-05, 09:52 AM	I think 44 sounds right on it. Solar's are retardedly powerful beings, and by my standards, have as much right to an ECL as a Tarrasque. Which is very little, if at all.
Starmage21 01-18-05, 10:43 AM	well i figured the ECL using Savage Species, so its gotta be close. An ancient Silver dragon is ECL 42 (3.5 epic leadership cohort level). Acid test it. Take a solar, give it PC rolled ability scores, and rolled hit points, then give it equipment for a 44th level PC and pit it against a CR 44 monster. He should either kill it, or it should kill him, but in the end, its going to be very very close. If it's not close, adjust the ECL up or down a bit until its a close fight.
BelRex 01-18-05, 11:54 AM	I don't think you can do as you say, because a CR, in my understanding, is a challenge rating for a group of 4 PC's, not just one. To compare it to some of the other epic monsters from the ELH (with the corrected ELC chart) an infernal is 40, an Atropal is 44, and Adult force dragon is 45. Or a Leshay is a 50 ELC, just advance the Solar up and see what happens. I think in epic, the same savage rules wouldn't apply as much, it's much harder to decide on LA. Some of the abilities you're giving an LA for, wouldn't help it, in an epic battle. I know we're only haggling over 7 levels..but those could mean the difference between life and death. Try running a solar up against a Tayellah, they have nearly the same CR and close to the same ELC(from my stand point)