ECL's for monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL's for monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
monsterPC
04-27-06, 10:46 PM me, being the type of person that I am, love monster characters, but while flipping through the pages of 'the book of vile darkness', ' monster manual 2 ', and ' monster manual 3' I knowticed that an ECL (Effective Character Levels, just FYI) wasn't added to most, if any of the monsters.

' Dragon Issue # 307 ' has a wonderfull list of ECL's for all the monsters in the original monster manual, but those races seem basic to me, and are common to both players and DMs alike. ( my DM can almost recite the stats for all the humanoids off the top of his head ;) )

the monsters I personaly want an ECL ( and taking away a few monster abilitys isn't an issue with me to reduce ECL level)

-Kython (juvinile){book of vile darkness, pg 178}
-Automatons{monster manual 2, pg 27}
-Clockwork Horror{monster manual 2, pg 47}
-Elemental Wierd{monster manual 2, pg 90}
-Marrash{monster manual 2, pg 145}
-Myconid(any){monster manual 2, pg 154}
-Nimblewright{monster manual 2, pg 163}

...sorry for the long list, I really want these as PC's or ar least able to add classes onto them for a little flare.

so this thread Is my first post, and will either become a living collection of ECL's from every one, Will develop a set way to figure out ECL's, or will be moved into another forum by the first member that tells me I'm a newb and put this in the wrong forum
dok
04-27-06, 11:09 PM me, being the type of person that I am, love monster characters, but while flipping through the pages of 'the book of vile darkness', ' monster manual 2 ', and ' monster manual 3' I knowticed that an ECL (Equivilant Character Levels, just FYI) wasn't added to most, if any of the monsters.

Well, there are three reasons for that.

Book of Vile Darkness
ECLs weren't a part of 3.0 rules, when the BoVD was written. When the 3.5 conversion occured, BoVD wasn't converted. So, there are no official ECLs for any of that material.

Monster Manual II[u]
The MMII was also a 3E book, and written prior to [u]Savage Species. So you won't find any ECLs in that book. However, if you download the MMII 3.5 update guide (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Monster_Manual_2.zip), you'll find many of the monsters have Level-Adjustments (and thus ECLs) added. Those that don't have a level-adjustment, or list "LA: - " aren't suitable for use as a PC-race.

Monster Manual 3
If a level-adjustment is missing from a monster in the MM3, there's a reason for that: the monster isn't well suited for use as a PC-race, and can't be balanced using the Level-Adjustment/ECL mechanic.

Let me illustrate the issue of "not suitable as a PC-race"

-Automatons{monster manual 2, pg 27}

Automatons have no intelligence score. Creatures without an intelligence score cannot communicate, or gain levels.

-Clockwork Horror{monster manual 2, pg 47}

Clockwork horrors have a single hive-mind, and as such are not free-willed or independant, qualities necessary for a PC race.

-Elemental Wierd{monster manual 2, pg 90}

Elemental Wierds have 15 racial HD, which means they have a minimum ECL of 15; the ECL rules aren't presented for creatures with an ECL of 20 or more. Elemental Wierds also cast spells as 18th level Sorcerers, with Domain access; that means their minimum ECL is probably more like 18.
But there's still another reason why Elemental Weirds don't have a level adjustment: Elemental Weirds cannot leave their elemental pool except to return to their home plane. A creature that can't leave a 20 ft. diamter pool of material doesn't make a very good PC.

Kython (juvinile){book of vile darkness, pg 178}
The Kython is described as "interested only in eating and propagating their species; they are entirely without mercy, pity, or compassion for any other creature". That doesn't read like the kind of creature that would form adventuring groups with other PCs.

The remainder of your listed monsters do have ECLs listed in the MMII conversion guide.
monsterPC
04-27-06, 11:42 PM ...wow, now I really feel teribly like a newb, and thats saying something since I got the books practicly when they first came out....

ok, thanks for pointing that out the clockwork and automatons. there was a spell somewere in the dragon magazines that ' awakened constructs, one for beasts, and one for oozes, though the three spells seem cheap to me. thank you for pointing this out.

the elemental wierds I looked over and, yet again, thank you for pointing out my over look.

the kython's I have to defend though. the way the race is set up, the strongest rule, these are usually the slaughter kings. so whats to stop say, a juvinile kython from adventuring with a group to get stronger, after all, if thing don't work than bob the wizard's familiar just became lunch :cool: .

"interested only in eating and propagating their species; they are entirely without mercy, pity, or compassion for any other creature".
I've read over the entry and can't find were it says that.

on a positive note, thank you sooooooooo much for the update patch. this answers abunch of my questions.
Atirakis
04-27-06, 11:58 PM its EFFECTIVE character level, FYI
monsterPC
04-28-06, 12:13 AM noted! sorry about that, I got the general gest of it though. :blush:
Atirakis
04-28-06, 12:58 AM all good just letting you know
dok
04-28-06, 01:44 AM I've read over the entry and can't find were it says that.

It's right above where it says "...each answers only to those more powerful than themselves". It's in the second paragraph of the general description for Kythons.

the kython's I have to defend though. the way the race is set up, the strongest rule, these are usually the slaughter kings. so whats to stop say, a juvinile kython from adventuring with a group to get stronger, after all, if thing don't work than bob the wizard's familiar just became lunch

Re-read the description again. Kythons are without mercy, pity or compassion for any other creatures, and answer only to those kythons more powerul than themselves. Are there creatures more powerful than the Slaughterking? Sure, lots. But would the Kythons answer to them or obey them? No. "None of them were loyal to the fiends that created them".

What stops a Juvenille kython from adventuring with a group?
"...interested only in eating and propagating their species..."
Adventuring, the pursuit of wealth and experience, these things are niether eating, nor propogation.
"...without mercy, pity, or compassion for any other creature... each answers only to those more powerful than themselves..."
Teamwork, trust, and co-operation are the cornerstones of an adventuring group.
"Kythons speak a strange smattering of both Infernal and Abyssal, but only to each other, never to others"
So not only will they not trust, care for, or work with any non-kython, but they won't even talk to them, either.

So, to recap:
*Only wants to eat and lay eggs.
*Won't obey anyone but more powerful Kythons.
*Won't help, work with, or care about anyone but Kythons.
*won't talk to anyone but Kythons.

As a monstrous race of alien creatures, that's fantastic stuff.
As a PC, it's a train-wreck.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monsterPC 04-27-06, 10:46 PM	me, being the type of person that I am, love monster characters, but while flipping through the pages of 'the book of vile darkness', ' monster manual 2 ', and ' monster manual 3' I knowticed that an ECL (Effective Character Levels, just FYI) wasn't added to most, if any of the monsters. ' Dragon Issue # 307 ' has a wonderfull list of ECL's for all the monsters in the original monster manual, but those races seem basic to me, and are common to both players and DMs alike. ( my DM can almost recite the stats for all the humanoids off the top of his head ;) ) the monsters I personaly want an ECL ( and taking away a few monster abilitys isn't an issue with me to reduce ECL level) -Kython (juvinile){book of vile darkness, pg 178} -Automatons{monster manual 2, pg 27} -Clockwork Horror{monster manual 2, pg 47} -Elemental Wierd{monster manual 2, pg 90} -Marrash{monster manual 2, pg 145} -Myconid(any){monster manual 2, pg 154} -Nimblewright{monster manual 2, pg 163} ...sorry for the long list, I really want these as PC's or ar least able to add classes onto them for a little flare. so this thread Is my first post, and will either become a living collection of ECL's from every one, Will develop a set way to figure out ECL's, or will be moved into another forum by the first member that tells me I'm a newb and put this in the wrong forum
dok 04-27-06, 11:09 PM	me, being the type of person that I am, love monster characters, but while flipping through the pages of 'the book of vile darkness', ' monster manual 2 ', and ' monster manual 3' I knowticed that an ECL (Equivilant Character Levels, just FYI) wasn't added to most, if any of the monsters. Well, there are three reasons for that. Book of Vile Darkness ECLs weren't a part of 3.0 rules, when the BoVD was written. When the 3.5 conversion occured, BoVD wasn't converted. So, there are no official ECLs for any of that material. Monster Manual II[u] The MMII was also a 3E book, and written prior to [u]Savage Species. So you won't find any ECLs in that book. However, if you download the MMII 3.5 update guide (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Monster_Manual_2.zip), you'll find many of the monsters have Level-Adjustments (and thus ECLs) added. Those that don't have a level-adjustment, or list "LA: - " aren't suitable for use as a PC-race. Monster Manual 3 If a level-adjustment is missing from a monster in the MM3, there's a reason for that: the monster isn't well suited for use as a PC-race, and can't be balanced using the Level-Adjustment/ECL mechanic. Let me illustrate the issue of "not suitable as a PC-race" -Automatons{monster manual 2, pg 27} Automatons have no intelligence score. Creatures without an intelligence score cannot communicate, or gain levels. -Clockwork Horror{monster manual 2, pg 47} Clockwork horrors have a single hive-mind, and as such are not free-willed or independant, qualities necessary for a PC race. -Elemental Wierd{monster manual 2, pg 90} Elemental Wierds have 15 racial HD, which means they have a minimum ECL of 15; the ECL rules aren't presented for creatures with an ECL of 20 or more. Elemental Wierds also cast spells as 18th level Sorcerers, with Domain access; that means their minimum ECL is probably more like 18. But there's still another reason why Elemental Weirds don't have a level adjustment: Elemental Weirds cannot leave their elemental pool except to return to their home plane. A creature that can't leave a 20 ft. diamter pool of material doesn't make a very good PC. Kython (juvinile){book of vile darkness, pg 178} The Kython is described as "interested only in eating and propagating their species; they are entirely without mercy, pity, or compassion for any other creature". That doesn't read like the kind of creature that would form adventuring groups with other PCs. The remainder of your listed monsters do have ECLs listed in the MMII conversion guide.
monsterPC 04-27-06, 11:42 PM	...wow, now I really feel teribly like a newb, and thats saying something since I got the books practicly when they first came out.... ok, thanks for pointing that out the clockwork and automatons. there was a spell somewere in the dragon magazines that ' awakened constructs, one for beasts, and one for oozes, though the three spells seem cheap to me. thank you for pointing this out. the elemental wierds I looked over and, yet again, thank you for pointing out my over look. the kython's I have to defend though. the way the race is set up, the strongest rule, these are usually the slaughter kings. so whats to stop say, a juvinile kython from adventuring with a group to get stronger, after all, if thing don't work than bob the wizard's familiar just became lunch :cool: . "interested only in eating and propagating their species; they are entirely without mercy, pity, or compassion for any other creature". I've read over the entry and can't find were it says that. on a positive note, thank you sooooooooo much for the update patch. this answers abunch of my questions.
Atirakis 04-27-06, 11:58 PM	its EFFECTIVE character level, FYI
monsterPC 04-28-06, 12:13 AM	noted! sorry about that, I got the general gest of it though. :blush:
Atirakis 04-28-06, 12:58 AM	all good just letting you know
dok 04-28-06, 01:44 AM	I've read over the entry and can't find were it says that. It's right above where it says "...each answers only to those more powerful than themselves". It's in the second paragraph of the general description for Kythons. the kython's I have to defend though. the way the race is set up, the strongest rule, these are usually the slaughter kings. so whats to stop say, a juvinile kython from adventuring with a group to get stronger, after all, if thing don't work than bob the wizard's familiar just became lunch Re-read the description again. Kythons are without mercy, pity or compassion for any other creatures, and answer only to those kythons more powerul than themselves. Are there creatures more powerful than the Slaughterking? Sure, lots. But would the Kythons answer to them or obey them? No. "None of them were loyal to the fiends that created them". What stops a Juvenille kython from adventuring with a group? "...interested only in eating and propagating their species..." Adventuring, the pursuit of wealth and experience, these things are niether eating, nor propogation. "...without mercy, pity, or compassion for any other creature... each answers only to those more powerful than themselves..." Teamwork, trust, and co-operation are the cornerstones of an adventuring group. "Kythons speak a strange smattering of both Infernal and Abyssal, but only to each other, never to others" So not only will they not trust, care for, or work with any non-kython, but they won't even talk to them, either. So, to recap: Only wants to eat and lay eggs. Won't obey anyone but more powerful Kythons. Won't help, work with, or care about anyone but Kythons. won't talk to anyone but Kythons. As a monstrous race of alien creatures, that's fantastic stuff. As a PC, it's a train-wreck.