Effective character level vs. Challenge rating [Archive] - Wizards Community

Effective character level vs. Challenge rating [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dm_G
12-20-03, 02:44 PM In Monster manual 3.5, the level adjustment and challenge rating, don`t make sense. For example the hand archone have a challenge rating of 14, and 12 hit-dies, and level adjustment + 8. If a hound archone takes one character level, the effective character level will be 21. But the challenge rating will only be 15. How can this be right? Does a hound archone, character level 1 go with a 21 level party???????
ieattrollsforbreakfast
12-20-03, 02:59 PM CR is based on the monster working against the party, and this is entirely different to the monster working WITH the party. Thats the simple jist of it anyway.
Plus, as a character the hound archon will be fleshed out with items that will boost its power to keep it in line.
vassalich
12-20-03, 04:56 PM Also, WOTC jacked up the ECL to keep players from wanting to be monsters, and stick to the core races.

Funny how they seem to to want to tell us how to play.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
12-20-03, 05:43 PM I dont believe they have jacked up the ECLs intentionally. In my games I have always used the listed ECLs and the monster PCs seemed to fit very well into the party of normal players.
Was that actually written down or announced by anyone from WotC?
vassalich
12-20-03, 06:03 PM Yes, it was actually stated in an interview with one of the authors of Savage Species, almost verbatim.
A Man In Black
12-20-03, 07:17 PM Augh.

Actually, that's a taken-out-of-context quote from an interview.

In context, the author (Sean K. Reynolds, to be specific), was talking about how ECLs are set high based on the assumption that a monster PC is going to be able to take advantage of its strengths and deal with its weaknesses. For example, a (pre-revision) rakshasa PC would be expected to have Protection From Arrows active nearly all of the time, along with other protections against that blessed crossbow bolt.

The "WotC jacked up the ECL so nobody will play monsters" is a misnomer, arising from the fact that the ECLs are based on the assumption that monster PCs will, like all PCs, spend most of their time playing to their strengths. The problem is that monster PCs tend to have much narrower strengths and much more marked weaknesses than more mundane PCs.

The original post was a tad garbled. A hound archon (6 hit dice and +5 LA, for ECL of 11 before class levels) isn't terribly tough, but has a number of crazy-powerful always-on abilities, plus DR 10/evil, plus great skill points and saves, plus teleport without error at will. A hound archon fighter or paladin could admirably take up the role of a party paladin or fighter, as long as it had high con and made a point of getting extra hit points from somewhere.
the_heart
12-22-03, 07:47 AM Originally posted by dm_G
In Monster manual 3.5, the level adjustment and challenge rating, don`t make sense. For example the hand archone have a challenge rating of 14, and 12 hit-dies, and level adjustment + 8. If a hound archone takes one character level, the effective character level will be 21. But the challenge rating will only be 15. How can this be right? Does a hound archone, character level 1 go with a 21 level party??????? the biggest difference between CR and ECL is that different abilities have different significance depending on whether it's a monster('on scene' for one-two encounters) or a PC('on scene' all the time)

an example, Cure light wounds at will, for a monster CR 7, it might not even have an opportunity to use this minor ability, it certainly won't make a major difference to the PC's in how they defeat it.

cure light wounds at will for a PC, and the whole balance of a series of encounters and what is challenging needs to be changed. it really is a major ability.

this is why CR and ECL will never quite match up, and in some cases there will be large gaps between the two.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dm_G 12-20-03, 02:44 PM	In Monster manual 3.5, the level adjustment and challenge rating, don`t make sense. For example the hand archone have a challenge rating of 14, and 12 hit-dies, and level adjustment + 8. If a hound archone takes one character level, the effective character level will be 21. But the challenge rating will only be 15. How can this be right? Does a hound archone, character level 1 go with a 21 level party???????
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-20-03, 02:59 PM	CR is based on the monster working against the party, and this is entirely different to the monster working WITH the party. Thats the simple jist of it anyway. Plus, as a character the hound archon will be fleshed out with items that will boost its power to keep it in line.
vassalich 12-20-03, 04:56 PM	Also, WOTC jacked up the ECL to keep players from wanting to be monsters, and stick to the core races. Funny how they seem to to want to tell us how to play.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-20-03, 05:43 PM	I dont believe they have jacked up the ECLs intentionally. In my games I have always used the listed ECLs and the monster PCs seemed to fit very well into the party of normal players. Was that actually written down or announced by anyone from WotC?
vassalich 12-20-03, 06:03 PM	Yes, it was actually stated in an interview with one of the authors of Savage Species, almost verbatim.
A Man In Black 12-20-03, 07:17 PM	Augh. Actually, that's a taken-out-of-context quote from an interview. In context, the author (Sean K. Reynolds, to be specific), was talking about how ECLs are set high based on the assumption that a monster PC is going to be able to take advantage of its strengths and deal with its weaknesses. For example, a (pre-revision) rakshasa PC would be expected to have Protection From Arrows active nearly all of the time, along with other protections against that blessed crossbow bolt. The "WotC jacked up the ECL so nobody will play monsters" is a misnomer, arising from the fact that the ECLs are based on the assumption that monster PCs will, like all PCs, spend most of their time playing to their strengths. The problem is that monster PCs tend to have much narrower strengths and much more marked weaknesses than more mundane PCs. The original post was a tad garbled. A hound archon (6 hit dice and +5 LA, for ECL of 11 before class levels) isn't terribly tough, but has a number of crazy-powerful always-on abilities, plus DR 10/evil, plus great skill points and saves, plus teleport without error at will. A hound archon fighter or paladin could admirably take up the role of a party paladin or fighter, as long as it had high con and made a point of getting extra hit points from somewhere.
the_heart 12-22-03, 07:47 AM	Originally posted by dm_G In Monster manual 3.5, the level adjustment and challenge rating, don`t make sense. For example the hand archone have a challenge rating of 14, and 12 hit-dies, and level adjustment + 8. If a hound archone takes one character level, the effective character level will be 21. But the challenge rating will only be 15. How can this be right? Does a hound archone, character level 1 go with a 21 level party??????? the biggest difference between CR and ECL is that different abilities have different significance depending on whether it's a monster('on scene' for one-two encounters) or a PC('on scene' all the time) an example, Cure light wounds at will, for a monster CR 7, it might not even have an opportunity to use this minor ability, it certainly won't make a major difference to the PC's in how they defeat it. cure light wounds at will for a PC, and the whole balance of a series of encounters and what is challenging needs to be changed. it really is a major ability. this is why CR and ECL will never quite match up, and in some cases there will be large gaps between the two.