Eisgeist (Need CR help) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eisgeist (Need CR help) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arganis
08-15-06, 03:51 PM I usually hang out in the What's a GM to do? forum, but this post belongs here for sure. I'm trying to fine-tune a CR 13ish monster called the Eisgeist (Ice Ghost). It is a water-based spirit that hunts and kills living creatures.

In its ethereal form, an eisgeist is a blue, cloaked form that vagely resembles the spirit's body in life. When manifested, the eisgeist's lower limbs descend into a puddle of water. Its forelimbs bear wickedly curved scythes of ice where hands should be. Wherever it passes when manifested, it leaves a trail of icy crystals that melt into water. It's incorporeal touch attacks generate such extreme cold that ice is created in their path, allowing the eisgeist to attack its targets with a numbing cold.

In combat, I imagine the eisgeist to act very similar to a Japanese water-thriller, hunting down its victims with ever-advancing water and ice while lingering in the background to make devastating attacks.

Is CR 13 appropriate here? Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

EISGEIST
Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Cold, Evil)
Hit Dice: 12d12 (78 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: Fly 60 ft (perfect)
Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 20, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+13
Attack: Ice Blade +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment)
Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ice lance, sneak attack +2d6, cold aura, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con -, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +11, Hide +23, Listen +17, Search +15, Spot +14, Swim +10
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 13?

Dexterity Damage (Su): Living creatures that take cold damage from an eisgeist’s touch attacks must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Dexterity damage as their body is literally frozen. The save DC is Charisma-based. If the victim is placed near a source of heat comparable to a camp-fire, dexterity damage is fully restored within 1 hour.
Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage.
Cold Aura (Su): An eisgeist fills the places it passes with utter cold. Creatures that spend more than 2 rounds within 30 feet of an eisgeist (even an unmanifested one) must begin making DC 21 fortitude saves each round or take 1d6 points of cold damage. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Ghost Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following abilities as per the Ghost template: Rejuvination, turn resistance +4, Manifestation. When an eisgeist manifests, its attacks and abilities continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally, even if they rely on touch. An eisgeist's spell-like abilities can affect the Material Plane even if the eisgeist is not manifested.
Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding.
Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist uses its fly speed underwater.
Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th.

At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist
1/day – ice storm

Skills: Eisgeists have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Search checks.
Talisman
08-15-06, 05:01 PM Hit Dice: 12d12 (78 hp)

A 13th-level party will tear through 78 hp before you can blink. I highly recommend either Unholy Toughness (add Cha modifier to each HD as bonus hp), more HD, stouter defenses, or a combination.

Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+13
Attack: Ice Blade +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment)
Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage)

Undead BAB at 12 HD is +6. Grapple is +6 (BAB) +0 (Str) +0 (Size) = +6

Melee attacks are +6 (BAB) +5 (Dex) = +11. Secondary attacks are at +6 or +9 with Multiattack.

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities

I'd like to see better defenses. DR 10/magic and good is not excessive, as is spell resistance (typicall 11 + CR, or about 24).

Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3

Base saves for a 12 HD undead are Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +8. With ability modifiers, these become Fort +3 (+0 Con), Ref +9 (+5 Dex), Will +7 (-1 Wis)

Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint

A 12 HD undead gets 5 feats. This one has 7. Either delete two, increase HD to at least 18, or designate two feats as bonus feats.

Challenge Rating: 13

As written, looks like a CR of 9 or 10.

Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage.

So what? You don't need a light weapon to deal sneak attack damage.

Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding.

Is sneak attack 3d6 or 2d6? Stat block says 2, description says 3.

Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist uses its fly speed underwater.[/COLOR]

Technically, I believe, this makes it a swim speed.

[COLOR=DarkGreen]Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th.

At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist
1/day – ice storm

Kind of weak. I'd throw in things like sleet storm, wall of ice, chill metal, cone of cold. Maybe even polar ray.
Arganis
08-15-06, 05:27 PM Thanks for the great feedback Talisman.

Hit Dice: 12d12 (78 hp)

A 13th-level party will tear through 78 hp before you can blink. I highly recommend either Unholy Toughness (add Cha modifier to each HD as bonus hp), more HD, stouter defenses, or a combination.

Unholy Toughness sounds perfect.

Undead BAB at 12 HD is +6. Grapple is +6 (BAB) +0 (Str) +0 (Size) = +6

Melee attacks are +6 (BAB) +5 (Dex) = +11. Secondary attacks are at +6 or +9 with Multiattack.

Bah. I had started off making it an Elemental with a better Str score. Thanks for catching this error.

I'd like to see better defenses. DR 10/magic and good is not excessive, as is spell resistance (typicall 11 + CR, or about 24).

I'll say 10/Good. As an incorporeal creature, only magic weapons can hit it anyway.

Base saves for a 12 HD undead are Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +8. With ability modifiers, these become Fort +3 (+0 Con), Ref +9 (+5 Dex), Will +7 (-1 Wis)

It had been my intention to shift this particular creature's good save to Reflex. The whole concept is rogue-based for storyline reasons.

A 12 HD undead gets 5 feats. This one has 7. Either delete two, increase HD to at least 18, or designate two feats as bonus feats.

I'd prefer to keep all the feats. You're right that declaring 2 as bonus would be appropriate mechanically, but do you think more HD are in order here? If so, I can just go that route.

As written, looks like a CR of 9 or 10.

How about now (below)?

So what? You don't need a light weapon to deal sneak attack damage.

Right you are.

Is sneak attack 3d6 or 2d6? Stat block says 2, description says 3.

3d6. Sorry!

Spell-Like Abilities:

Kind of weak. I'd throw in things like sleet storm, wall of ice, chill metal, cone of cold. Maybe even polar ray.

Good call. I'll steer clear of polar ray for now, but these are definitely appropriate additions.

EISGEIST
Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Cold, Evil)
Hit Dice: 12d12+60 (138 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: Fly 60 ft (perfect)
Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 20, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+6
Attack: Ice Blade +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment)
Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ice lance, sneak attack +3d6, cold aura, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/Good, Spell Resistance 24, Darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con -, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +11, Hide +23, Listen +17, Search +15, Spot +14, Swim +10
Bonus Feats: Unholy Toughness, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 13?

Dexterity Damage (Su): Living creatures that take cold damage from an eisgeist’s touch attacks must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Dexterity damage as their body is literally frozen. The save DC is Charisma-based. If the victim is placed near a source of heat comparable to a camp-fire, dexterity damage is fully restored within 1 hour.
Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage.
Cold Aura (Su): An eisgeist fills the places it passes with utter cold. Creatures that spend more than 2 rounds within 30 feet of an eisgeist (even an unmanifested one) must begin making DC 21 fortitude saves each round or take 1d6 points of cold damage. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Ghost Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following abilities as per the Ghost template: Rejuvination, turn resistance +4, Manifestation. When an eisgeist manifests, its attacks and abilities continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally, even if they rely on touch. An eisgeist's spell-like abilities can affect the Material Plane even if the eisgeist is not manifested.
Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding.
Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist has a swim speed of 60ft.
Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th. (DC = 15 + Spell Level; Charisma based)

At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist
3/day - chill metal, sleet storm, wall of ice
1/day – ice storm, cone of cold

Skills: Eisgeists have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Search checks.
Arganis
08-16-06, 10:57 AM :bump:

Also, I edited the eisgeist to be able to control water to the extent that it can create puppet water elementals from standing water. These will assist it in flanking. As a trade-off, I made it vulnerable to water elemental turning.

EISGEIST
Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Cold, Evil)
Hit Dice: 12d12+60 (138 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: Fly 60 ft (perfect)
Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 20, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+6
Attack: Ice Blade +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment)
Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Water elemental control, Ice lance, sneak attack +3d6, cold aura, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Elemental turning vulnerability, damage reduction 10/Good, spell resistance 24, darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con -, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +11, Hide +23, Listen +17, Search +15, Spot +14, Swim +10
Bonus Feats: Unholy Toughness, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 13?

Dexterity Damage (Su): Living creatures that take cold damage from an eisgeist’s touch attacks must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Dexterity damage as their body is literally frozen. The save DC is Charisma-based. If the victim is placed near a source of heat comparable to a camp-fire, dexterity damage is fully restored within 1 hour.
Water Elemental Control(Su): An eisgeist can animate standing water, effectively creating water elementals. The eisgeist must expend a move-equivalent action every round to its creations, or they will return to intert water. This ability has a casting time of 1 full round (as per most summoning spells). Using this method, an eisgeist can create and control up to 12HD of water elementals at any one time. In addition to this, an eisgeist can rebuke/control water elementals 3/day as a 12th level cleric.
Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage.
Cold Aura (Su): An eisgeist fills the places it passes with utter cold. Creatures that spend more than 2 rounds within 30 feet of an eisgeist (even an unmanifested one) must begin making DC 21 fortitude saves each round or take 1d6 points of cold damage. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Elemental Turning Vulnerability (Ex): Any creature that can turn or rebuke water elementals can turn or rebuke an eisgeist.
Ghost Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following abilities as per the Ghost template: Rejuvination, turn resistance +4, Manifestation. When an eisgeist manifests, its attacks and abilities continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally, even if they rely on touch. An eisgeist's spell-like abilities can affect the Material Plane even if the eisgeist is not manifested.
Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding.
Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist has a swim speed of 60ft.
Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th. (DC = 15 + Spell Level; Charisma based)

At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist
3/day - chill metal, sleet storm, wall of ice
1/day – ice storm, cone of cold

Skills: Eisgeists have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Search checks.
Talisman
08-16-06, 04:54 PM Looks much better now...I'd say about CR 12 or 13. Check the MM agains CR 13 critters and compare stats (don't have my MM handy, unfortunately). Specifically, I'd look at AC, attack bonuses and SLAs.

Water elemental control is cool. However, I'm not sure how much of a vulnerability the "turned as a water creayire" really is. Realistically, the only characters that will have this power are clerics with the Water domain...clerics who can already turn the eisgeist by virtue of its being undead.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arganis 08-15-06, 03:51 PM	I usually hang out in the What's a GM to do? forum, but this post belongs here for sure. I'm trying to fine-tune a CR 13ish monster called the Eisgeist (Ice Ghost). It is a water-based spirit that hunts and kills living creatures. In its ethereal form, an eisgeist is a blue, cloaked form that vagely resembles the spirit's body in life. When manifested, the eisgeist's lower limbs descend into a puddle of water. Its forelimbs bear wickedly curved scythes of ice where hands should be. Wherever it passes when manifested, it leaves a trail of icy crystals that melt into water. It's incorporeal touch attacks generate such extreme cold that ice is created in their path, allowing the eisgeist to attack its targets with a numbing cold. In combat, I imagine the eisgeist to act very similar to a Japanese water-thriller, hunting down its victims with ever-advancing water and ice while lingering in the background to make devastating attacks. Is CR 13 appropriate here? Any and all suggestions are appreciated. EISGEIST Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Cold, Evil) Hit Dice: 12d12 (78 hp) Initiative: +9 Speed: Fly 60 ft (perfect) Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 20, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+13 Attack: Ice Blade +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment) Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Ice lance, sneak attack +2d6, cold aura, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con -, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 20 Skills: Bluff +11, Hide +23, Listen +17, Search +15, Spot +14, Swim +10 Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 13? Dexterity Damage (Su): Living creatures that take cold damage from an eisgeist’s touch attacks must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Dexterity damage as their body is literally frozen. The save DC is Charisma-based. If the victim is placed near a source of heat comparable to a camp-fire, dexterity damage is fully restored within 1 hour. Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage. Cold Aura (Su): An eisgeist fills the places it passes with utter cold. Creatures that spend more than 2 rounds within 30 feet of an eisgeist (even an unmanifested one) must begin making DC 21 fortitude saves each round or take 1d6 points of cold damage. The save DC is Charisma-based. Ghost Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following abilities as per the Ghost template: Rejuvination, turn resistance +4, Manifestation. When an eisgeist manifests, its attacks and abilities continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally, even if they rely on touch. An eisgeist's spell-like abilities can affect the Material Plane even if the eisgeist is not manifested. Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding. Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist uses its fly speed underwater. Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th. At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist 1/day – ice storm Skills: Eisgeists have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Search checks.
Talisman 08-15-06, 05:01 PM	Hit Dice: 12d12 (78 hp) A 13th-level party will tear through 78 hp before you can blink. I highly recommend either Unholy Toughness (add Cha modifier to each HD as bonus hp), more HD, stouter defenses, or a combination. Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+13 Attack: Ice Blade +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment) Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +13 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +13 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage) Undead BAB at 12 HD is +6. Grapple is +6 (BAB) +0 (Str) +0 (Size) = +6 Melee attacks are +6 (BAB) +5 (Dex) = +11. Secondary attacks are at +6 or +9 with Multiattack. Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities I'd like to see better defenses. DR 10/magic and good is not excessive, as is spell resistance (typicall 11 + CR, or about 24). Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3 Base saves for a 12 HD undead are Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +8. With ability modifiers, these become Fort +3 (+0 Con), Ref +9 (+5 Dex), Will +7 (-1 Wis) Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint A 12 HD undead gets 5 feats. This one has 7. Either delete two, increase HD to at least 18, or designate two feats as bonus feats. Challenge Rating: 13 As written, looks like a CR of 9 or 10. Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage. So what? You don't need a light weapon to deal sneak attack damage. Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding. Is sneak attack 3d6 or 2d6? Stat block says 2, description says 3. Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist uses its fly speed underwater.[/COLOR] Technically, I believe, this makes it a swim speed. [COLOR=DarkGreen]Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th. At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist 1/day – ice storm Kind of weak. I'd throw in things like sleet storm, wall of ice, chill metal, cone of cold. Maybe even polar ray.
Arganis 08-15-06, 05:27 PM	Thanks for the great feedback Talisman. Hit Dice: 12d12 (78 hp) A 13th-level party will tear through 78 hp before you can blink. I highly recommend either Unholy Toughness (add Cha modifier to each HD as bonus hp), more HD, stouter defenses, or a combination. Unholy Toughness sounds perfect. Undead BAB at 12 HD is +6. Grapple is +6 (BAB) +0 (Str) +0 (Size) = +6 Melee attacks are +6 (BAB) +5 (Dex) = +11. Secondary attacks are at +6 or +9 with Multiattack. Bah. I had started off making it an Elemental with a better Str score. Thanks for catching this error. I'd like to see better defenses. DR 10/magic and good is not excessive, as is spell resistance (typicall 11 + CR, or about 24). I'll say 10/Good. As an incorporeal creature, only magic weapons can hit it anyway. Base saves for a 12 HD undead are Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +8. With ability modifiers, these become Fort +3 (+0 Con), Ref +9 (+5 Dex), Will +7 (-1 Wis) It had been my intention to shift this particular creature's good save to Reflex. The whole concept is rogue-based for storyline reasons. A 12 HD undead gets 5 feats. This one has 7. Either delete two, increase HD to at least 18, or designate two feats as bonus feats. I'd prefer to keep all the feats. You're right that declaring 2 as bonus would be appropriate mechanically, but do you think more HD are in order here? If so, I can just go that route. As written, looks like a CR of 9 or 10. How about now (below)? So what? You don't need a light weapon to deal sneak attack damage. Right you are. Is sneak attack 3d6 or 2d6? Stat block says 2, description says 3. 3d6. Sorry! Spell-Like Abilities: Kind of weak. I'd throw in things like sleet storm, wall of ice, chill metal, cone of cold. Maybe even polar ray. Good call. I'll steer clear of polar ray for now, but these are definitely appropriate additions. EISGEIST Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Cold, Evil) Hit Dice: 12d12+60 (138 hp) Initiative: +9 Speed: Fly 60 ft (perfect) Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 20, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+6 Attack: Ice Blade +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment) Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Ice lance, sneak attack +3d6, cold aura, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/Good, Spell Resistance 24, Darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con -, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 20 Skills: Bluff +11, Hide +23, Listen +17, Search +15, Spot +14, Swim +10 Bonus Feats: Unholy Toughness, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 13? Dexterity Damage (Su): Living creatures that take cold damage from an eisgeist’s touch attacks must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Dexterity damage as their body is literally frozen. The save DC is Charisma-based. If the victim is placed near a source of heat comparable to a camp-fire, dexterity damage is fully restored within 1 hour. Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage. Cold Aura (Su): An eisgeist fills the places it passes with utter cold. Creatures that spend more than 2 rounds within 30 feet of an eisgeist (even an unmanifested one) must begin making DC 21 fortitude saves each round or take 1d6 points of cold damage. The save DC is Charisma-based. Ghost Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following abilities as per the Ghost template: Rejuvination, turn resistance +4, Manifestation. When an eisgeist manifests, its attacks and abilities continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally, even if they rely on touch. An eisgeist's spell-like abilities can affect the Material Plane even if the eisgeist is not manifested. Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding. Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist has a swim speed of 60ft. Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th. (DC = 15 + Spell Level; Charisma based) At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist 3/day - chill metal, sleet storm, wall of ice 1/day – ice storm, cone of cold Skills: Eisgeists have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Search checks.
Arganis 08-16-06, 10:57 AM	:bump: Also, I edited the eisgeist to be able to control water to the extent that it can create puppet water elementals from standing water. These will assist it in flanking. As a trade-off, I made it vulnerable to water elemental turning. EISGEIST Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Cold, Evil) Hit Dice: 12d12+60 (138 hp) Initiative: +9 Speed: Fly 60 ft (perfect) Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 20, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+6 Attack: Ice Blade +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or Ice Shard +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage; 10ft. Range Increment) Full Attack: 2 Ice Blades +11 melee touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity drain) or 2 Ice Shards +11 ranged touch (1d6 cold plus 1d4 Dexterity damage) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Water elemental control, Ice lance, sneak attack +3d6, cold aura, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Elemental turning vulnerability, damage reduction 10/Good, spell resistance 24, darkvision 60ft., lifesense 60 ft., immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, ghost abilities, rogue abilities, elemental abilities Saves: Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +3 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con -, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 20 Skills: Bluff +11, Hide +23, Listen +17, Search +15, Spot +14, Swim +10 Bonus Feats: Unholy Toughness, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Feint Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 13? Dexterity Damage (Su): Living creatures that take cold damage from an eisgeist’s touch attacks must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Dexterity damage as their body is literally frozen. The save DC is Charisma-based. If the victim is placed near a source of heat comparable to a camp-fire, dexterity damage is fully restored within 1 hour. Water Elemental Control(Su): An eisgeist can animate standing water, effectively creating water elementals. The eisgeist must expend a move-equivalent action every round to its creations, or they will return to intert water. This ability has a casting time of 1 full round (as per most summoning spells). Using this method, an eisgeist can create and control up to 12HD of water elementals at any one time. In addition to this, an eisgeist can rebuke/control water elementals 3/day as a 12th level cleric. Ice Lance (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a manifested Eisgeist can project a shaft of ice up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals points of 4d6 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This attack counts as a light weapon for the purposes of dealing sneak attack damage. Cold Aura (Su): An eisgeist fills the places it passes with utter cold. Creatures that spend more than 2 rounds within 30 feet of an eisgeist (even an unmanifested one) must begin making DC 21 fortitude saves each round or take 1d6 points of cold damage. The save DC is Charisma-based. Elemental Turning Vulnerability (Ex): Any creature that can turn or rebuke water elementals can turn or rebuke an eisgeist. Ghost Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following abilities as per the Ghost template: Rejuvination, turn resistance +4, Manifestation. When an eisgeist manifests, its attacks and abilities continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally, even if they rely on touch. An eisgeist's spell-like abilities can affect the Material Plane even if the eisgeist is not manifested. Rogue Abilities (Ex): An eisgeist has the following rogue class abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding. Elemental Abilities (Ex): A manifested eisgeist has the following abilities as a medium-sized elemental: Water mastery, drench. A manifested eisgeist has a swim speed of 60ft. Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 12th. (DC = 15 + Spell Level; Charisma based) At will – create water, control water, curse water, obscuring mist 3/day - chill metal, sleet storm, wall of ice 1/day – ice storm, cone of cold Skills: Eisgeists have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Search checks.
Talisman 08-16-06, 04:54 PM	Looks much better now...I'd say about CR 12 or 13. Check the MM agains CR 13 critters and compare stats (don't have my MM handy, unfortunately). Specifically, I'd look at AC, attack bonuses and SLAs. Water elemental control is cool. However, I'm not sure how much of a vulnerability the "turned as a water creayire" really is. Realistically, the only characters that will have this power are clerics with the Water domain...clerics who can already turn the eisgeist by virtue of its being undead.