EL question [Archive] - Wizards Community

EL question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sandskimmer
11-19-05, 07:19 PM I have a couple encounters planned for my next session, but I'm iffy on the EL.

The first involves 12 2nd level experts with average stats. They are villagers that greet the party when they enter town. I gave it an EL of 6.

The second is a pack of 4 dire wolves that attack the party while they are investigation a destroyed encampment they come across. I gave that an EL of 6 too.

Am I close to the mark on these guys or not? Thanks.
dok
11-19-05, 08:58 PM The Dire Wolves are the easier to judge: an individual Dire Wolf is CR 3. A group of 4 creatures should have an EL of CR +4, so that should be an EL 7.

The 12 villagers gives me some pause as well. Four creatures is +4 to EL, eight creatures is allegedly +6, and twelve creatures would allegedly be +7. However, that assumes that the creatures are at least CR 1. More importantly, it assumes that the creatures are capable of threatening the PCs individually. It doesn't matter how many 1st level Orc Fighters you use, they're really no threat to a 10th level fighter. Even a 6th level fighter can plow through an incredible number of 1st level Orc Fighters without sustaining substiantial losses. So encounters do better with smaller groups of higher level opponents rather than big massess of low CR opponents.

So what we need to do is determine what the CR should be for a 2nd level Expert. The Monster Manual guidelines seem to suggest that a 2nd level Expert is CR 1; if we trust that, then the theoretical EL should be 8, but we know better than that. Part of the problem is that 2nd level Experts aren't really CR 1; they're probably closer to CR 2/3, or maybe even 1/2. At CR 2/3s, that means three makes EL 2, and twelve (four groups of three adds +4) would be EL 6. At CR 1/2, two Experts makes CR 1, which means six groups of two Experts adds +5 to the EL, also for a final EL of 6.

bottom line
EL 6 is too low for four Dire Wolves. Three Dire Wolves is EL 6, but four is EL 7.

How much of a challenge are 2nd level Experts? They need to be at least as tough as an Orc Warrior in terms of BAB/hit points/AC/saves. They don't have to be a perfect match, but where they're weaker needs to be offset by something else.

EL 6 is fine if the Experts are less than CR 1, which they probably are. Really, unless there are mitigating circumstances, I'd be somewhat surprized at how much of a challenge any size group of CR 2 Experts would be...
sandskimmer
11-19-05, 09:31 PM Thanks, that really helped. So does 2 creatures double the CR, and 3 creatures add an additional +1 to the doubling?
dok
11-19-05, 09:53 PM Not quite. Every doubling adds +2 to the EL

Two creatures is CR+2, four creatures is CR+4, eight creatures is CR+6, and sixteen creatures would be CR+8.

Filling in the gaps, three creatures is CR +3, six creatures (between five to seven, actually) is about CR +5, and tweleve creatures (again, between nine to fifteen) is about CR +7.
sandskimmer
11-19-05, 09:57 PM Gotcha. I've found it also helps to use the chart in the DMG for EL levels (amazing what you can glean from a book). Thanks again!
Borris
11-19-05, 10:48 PM 1) Two creatures with the same CR have an EL two higher. (X *2) = X+2
If you put two identical EL together, you raise the EL by two.
So, four same CR mean a EL four higher. (X *4) = X+4
And eight same CR mean an EL six higher. (X *8) = X+6

2) Two CR two numbers apart make an EL one above the highest CR. (X, X+2) = X+3
When combined with the first rule, this means that three same-CR creatures have an EL of 3 above their CR. (X *3) = X+3
And six same CR mean an EL five higher. (X *6) = X+5
So twelve same CR are an EL seven higher. (X *12) = X+7

3) The two first rules only work for creatures with CRs above 1. When putting together creatures of CR 1 or less, first add the CRs to together until you get a total of 2.
Three CR 1/3 make an EL 1.
Four CR 1/2 make an EL 2.
Two CR 1 make an EL 2.

Now you can combine all three rules.
Two CR 1 and one CR 2 will make an EL 4. (EL 2 for the two CR 1, then rule #1).
Add another CR 2 and you'll get an EL 6. (rule #2)

Let's try an example:
4 Dire Wolves (CR 3 each)
(CR X *4) = EL X+4
CR 3 *4 = EL 7

12 Human Experts (CR 1 each)
2 (CR 1) = EL 2 (so we have six EL 2 encounters)
(EL X *6) = EL X+5
(EL 2 *6) = EL 7

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sandskimmer 11-19-05, 07:19 PM	I have a couple encounters planned for my next session, but I'm iffy on the EL. The first involves 12 2nd level experts with average stats. They are villagers that greet the party when they enter town. I gave it an EL of 6. The second is a pack of 4 dire wolves that attack the party while they are investigation a destroyed encampment they come across. I gave that an EL of 6 too. Am I close to the mark on these guys or not? Thanks.
dok 11-19-05, 08:58 PM	The Dire Wolves are the easier to judge: an individual Dire Wolf is CR 3. A group of 4 creatures should have an EL of CR +4, so that should be an EL 7. The 12 villagers gives me some pause as well. Four creatures is +4 to EL, eight creatures is allegedly +6, and twelve creatures would allegedly be +7. However, that assumes that the creatures are at least CR 1. More importantly, it assumes that the creatures are capable of threatening the PCs individually. It doesn't matter how many 1st level Orc Fighters you use, they're really no threat to a 10th level fighter. Even a 6th level fighter can plow through an incredible number of 1st level Orc Fighters without sustaining substiantial losses. So encounters do better with smaller groups of higher level opponents rather than big massess of low CR opponents. So what we need to do is determine what the CR should be for a 2nd level Expert. The Monster Manual guidelines seem to suggest that a 2nd level Expert is CR 1; if we trust that, then the theoretical EL should be 8, but we know better than that. Part of the problem is that 2nd level Experts aren't really CR 1; they're probably closer to CR 2/3, or maybe even 1/2. At CR 2/3s, that means three makes EL 2, and twelve (four groups of three adds +4) would be EL 6. At CR 1/2, two Experts makes CR 1, which means six groups of two Experts adds +5 to the EL, also for a final EL of 6. bottom line EL 6 is too low for four Dire Wolves. Three Dire Wolves is EL 6, but four is EL 7. How much of a challenge are 2nd level Experts? They need to be at least as tough as an Orc Warrior in terms of BAB/hit points/AC/saves. They don't have to be a perfect match, but where they're weaker needs to be offset by something else. EL 6 is fine if the Experts are less than CR 1, which they probably are. Really, unless there are mitigating circumstances, I'd be somewhat surprized at how much of a challenge any size group of CR 2 Experts would be...
sandskimmer 11-19-05, 09:31 PM	Thanks, that really helped. So does 2 creatures double the CR, and 3 creatures add an additional +1 to the doubling?
dok 11-19-05, 09:53 PM	Not quite. Every doubling adds +2 to the EL Two creatures is CR+2, four creatures is CR+4, eight creatures is CR+6, and sixteen creatures would be CR+8. Filling in the gaps, three creatures is CR +3, six creatures (between five to seven, actually) is about CR +5, and tweleve creatures (again, between nine to fifteen) is about CR +7.
sandskimmer 11-19-05, 09:57 PM	Gotcha. I've found it also helps to use the chart in the DMG for EL levels (amazing what you can glean from a book). Thanks again!
Borris 11-19-05, 10:48 PM	1) Two creatures with the same CR have an EL two higher. (X 2) = X+2 If you put two identical EL together, you raise the EL by two. So, four same CR mean a EL four higher. (X 4) = X+4 And eight same CR mean an EL six higher. (X 8) = X+6 2) Two CR two numbers apart make an EL one above the highest CR. (X, X+2) = X+3 When combined with the first rule, this means that three same-CR creatures have an EL of 3 above their CR. (X 3) = X+3 And six same CR mean an EL five higher. (X 6) = X+5 So twelve same CR are an EL seven higher. (X 12) = X+7 3) The two first rules only work for creatures with CRs above 1. When putting together creatures of CR 1 or less, first add the CRs to together until you get a total of 2. Three CR 1/3 make an EL 1. Four CR 1/2 make an EL 2. Two CR 1 make an EL 2. Now you can combine all three rules. Two CR 1 and one CR 2 will make an EL 4. (EL 2 for the two CR 1, then rule #1). Add another CR 2 and you'll get an EL 6. (rule #2) Let's try an example: 4 Dire Wolves (CR 3 each) (CR X 4) = EL X+4 CR 3 4 = EL 7 12 Human Experts (CR 1 each) 2 (CR 1) = EL 2 (so we have six EL 2 encounters) (EL X 6) = EL X+5 (EL 2 6) = EL 7