Elder Being Traits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elder Being Traits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Echoes of Deception
11-29-07, 10:01 AM Undead. Constructs. Abominations. Archons. Devils. Rilmani. All of the above have what the game calls creature traits. So do all other genres of creatures. Except for dire.

But there's a genre out there that has not yet been classified. Many of we DMs love to play with games that include them, too. What are these things? Elder beings. Creatures of such incredible age that their start seems to transcend time itself. Things that this Lovecraft character apparently writes about. That thing that is my fears that I have horrible nightmares about every now and then. I'm not sure where the list starts or ends, but there's plenty more of these elder beings.

So why am I rambling on about this? What could the point of this post possibly be? Is it nothing more than a manner for me to stave off the deathlike sleep that is sure to follow this astounding bout of insomnia with? Or could it be something less personal? Do I have a goal in mind that could benefit more than just myself? Or am I really just that selfish? Is it something different, have I just lot my nut? Is off my rocker a viable term for my bringing this up? When will I stop asking these silly questions? No, really? Now.

The point here, is to create a list of traits for elder beings. A block that makes elder beings a genre of creature. One of those things that appears on crunch sheets like "archon traits" or "demon traits" or "abomination traits". But this one will be "elder being traits". Now, the reason for this post in the first place. I am really horrible at creating crunch of any kind. So, I leave the challenge up to those of you with the brass and stripes to make it happen.

P.S. I usually find myself 'levitating' after that dream, because it is so horrifying that my body jumps into the air while laying down on my back, in my bed. In this way, I feel like I'm floating, covered in sweat, as I wake. Right before I hit the back of my head against the bedstead.
HernetheHunter
11-29-07, 10:35 AM First step: Define more clearly what an "Elder Being" is.

Some classify Elder beings as those that existed before recorded time began. Some as really old things, meaning either immortal like or remnants of a soon to be deceased race.

In some writings the Aboleth are concidered Elder and in others certian Outsiders are.

So, what type of Elder is being traited? And could this not be a template?
blackknightatbay
11-29-07, 10:39 AM Your little monologue there sounds like the ones I often have in my own head, Echoes.

I'm the last person you want statting out anything, but I like to think I would be good in "flavor country", so to speak. That being said, Lovecraft style beings all seem to share the universal trait of being so beyond the range and scope of human sciences and perceptions that, if one is lucky, looking at one will only drive you suicidally insane. The Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth game is pretty good at illustrating this type of effect, although it obviously does not kill you right away to look upon "what lives in the dark corners of the Earth."
seker
11-29-07, 01:23 PM If you are looking for lovecraftian templates for the elder gods and such... they would already be under several existing types/subtypes, depending on the specific one involved.

aberration
outsider (likely obyrith subtype of demon)
extraplanar
and pseudonatural

In fact several of them, Dagon comes to mind, already are listed as outsider (obyrith, extraplanar)
blackknightatbay
11-29-07, 02:46 PM Another trait that comes to mind is the fact that lovecraft style beings are often described using words like "titanic" and "cyclopeon" and other such words. It isnt universal, but still common. It would make sense assuming that they continue to grow throughout their existance (even just the most minute amount of growth per year would add up to big, big fun). But that is also assuming that they are living beings like you and me, which is a bit of a leap in some cases.
JackSnape
11-29-07, 03:00 PM It's not exactly what you're talking about (this is limited to humanoids) but seeing your message prompted me to finish up something I'd been working on. Thanks for prodding me. :)
The Timeless Template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14457778#post14457778)
Artifact
11-29-07, 03:14 PM You seem like a transcendental sorta guy, echoes :P; here's something that may be of interest:

Check out Dragon Magazine #354 for an article by Hal Maclean called "Ancient PCs: Playing Elders in D&D".

This excellent article discusses characters "old beyond ages" in detail. It gives several ancient backrounds (suggestions) for how your character achieved his or her status as an elder (such as "golden-ager", "throwback", "hand of prophecy" and so on).

It also presents ancient spells and backround feats, as well as an optional (but recommended) extraordinary ability known as "Endless: A creature with this ability ceases to age once it achieves a certain point in its life cycle. It exists in a special kind of psysiological stasis, countering all the consequences of advancing years that usually lead to frailty and eventually death."

If interested, back issues can be ordered from paizo.com (normally for cover price).
SaintedBerzerker
11-30-07, 01:11 PM Are you trying to just stat out beings like cthulu?
If so probably just an incredibly powerful outsider or abberition.
I think the only thing that matters is that if it's an intelegent being would be rediculously high mental scores.
NobodyRemembersThis
12-01-07, 04:09 AM Honestly? I'd look at the Chaos beast from MM I, advance the snot out of it, and tac on any spell like abilities you feel are necessary. Chaos beast and/or gibbering mouther are good places to start though. :)
ArgulFraster
12-01-07, 09:17 PM I'd like an "elder being" type, it'd be good for the abberation-y outsiders.
SaintedBerzerker
12-02-07, 02:42 AM Hmmmmmm:
Elder Being subtype(Outsider or Aberition)
Resistance to all energy 50+
Immortal: Elder beings do not suffer any negative effects from aging, magical or otherwise. For ever 100,000 years an Elder Being ages it gains a culmulative +1 bonus to it's Charisma score.
Madness (su): Any being who percieves even the smallest part of an Elder Being must make a will save DC 1/2 the Elder Being's hit die plus Cha. Modifier or take 3d6 plus the Elder Being's Cha Modifier in Wis. Dammage. A creatur reduced to 0 Wis by this effect is driven mad and gains a + 10 to its attack and dammage rolls. Said creature attcks any and all living beings it can find until destroyed with the exception of the Elder Being.
ArochanoX
12-02-07, 06:07 AM My proposal of an elder being template. Derived from titanic and paragon templates and some twist from other creatures.

Creating an Elder Being
"Elder" is a template that can be applied to any living, corporeal tiny-sized or larger creature (referred hereafter as the base creature). It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Tybe: Elder being's type changes to Outsider (recalculate all saves, BAB and skill points)

Size: Increase 4 size categories (tiny to huge, small to gargantuan, medium to colossal, large to colossal+*, huge to colossal++*, gargantuan to colossal+++* and colossal to colossal++++*)

Hit Dice: If the base creature had 0-5 HD, increase HD to 25
If the base creature had 6-10 HD, increase HD to 30
If the base creature had 11-15 HD, increase HD to 35
If the base creature had 16-20 HD, increase HD to 40
If the base creature had 21-30 HD, increase HD to 50
If the base creature had 31-40 HD, increase HD to 60
An elder being gains maximum number of hit points per hit die.

Speed: Double the base creature's all movement speeds or use the listed speeds below, whichever is higher.
New size: Speed:
Huge 100ft (20 squares)
Gargantuan 150ft (30 squares)
Colossal 200ft (40 squares)
Colossal+ 250ft (50 squares)
Colossal++ 300ft (60 squares)
Colossal+++ 350ft (70 squares)
Colossal++++ 400ft (80 squares)

AC: An elder creature's natural armor increases by size change, but it also gains a +10 insight bonus to AC and charisma bonus as a deflection bonus to AC.

Attacks: An elder being reciseves a +20 Inherent bonus on all attack rolls and it adds its wisdom modifier as an Insight bonus on all attack rolls.

Damage: Increase all elder being's damage values by 5 steps (1d6 to 6d6 etc)

Face/Reach: Normal to the new size.

Special attacks: An elder creature retains the specail attacks of the base creature and also gains the abilities and modifications described below. Recalculate all saves and effects according to new hit dice.
Area Attacks: An elder creature's area attacks increase in size to gigantic proportions. Multiply the height, width, and length of the base creature's area attack by x6. This applies to all extraordinary and supernatural special attacks.
Increased Damage: Damage from a special attack other than poison or trample is tripled, if the attack deals hit point damage. This applies to all extraordinary and supernatural special attacks.
Better Spell-like abilities: If an elder creature had spell-like abilities, increase the caster level by 20 and apply enhance spell metamagic feat to each of the spell like abilities two times.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will: Quickened Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Heal. 3/day: Wish, Miracle

Frightful Presence (Ex): An elder being inspires terror with its magnificent size, unnatural shape and otherworldy aura. All creatures within 1000 ft of the elder being that have fewer HD than the elder being must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + ½ Elder being's Hit Dice + Elder Being's charisma modifier) or become shaken. A successful save leaves that opponent immune to that elder being's frightful presence for 24 hours.

Unnatural Aura (Su): Reality continually reshapes itself around an elder being. This grants an elder being a 75% concealment (elder being can't hide into this concealment), and all creature's within 100ft of the elder being must suceed a will save (DC 20 + ½ elder being's HD) each round or take 1d6 points of wisdom damage and a Fort save (DC 20 + ½ elder being's HD) and take 1d4 strenght, dexterity and constituion damage as the reality reshapes the creatures near the elder being it.

Knowledgeable (Ex): An elder creature is treated having a number of ranks equal to its HD in all knowledge skills. So a 60 HD elder being has 60 ranks in all knowledge skills.

Special Qualities: Same as the base creature and the following:

Damage Reduction: 15 / Epic and good

Regeneration 30: Elder being's regenration ability cannot be overcome. The only way to keep an elder being destroyed is to wish or miracle the creature 2 times in a row, when it is helpless.

Spell resistance: new CR + 14

Immune to: fear, polymorphing, mind-affecting and necromancy spells and effects.

Energy resistance: Fire resistance 20, Cold resistance 10, Electricity resistance 10, Acid resistance 10.

Saves: An Elder creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all saving throws.

Abilities: Physical abilities change by size increases, but the elder creature also gains following bonuses: +4 Con, +18 Int, +16 Wis, +20 Cha. And a +5 insight bonus on all ability scores.

Skills: Typical for an outsider of the same HD.

Feats: Typical for a creature of the same HD. An elder creature can take epic feats after it has atleast 20 hit dice.

CR: +20ish

Size change table

Original New Face/ Statistic Increases AC/
Size: Size: Reach: Str Dex Con NA Attack
Tiny Huge 15ft/15ft +24 -8 +10 +5 -4
Small Gargantuan 20ft/20ft +28 -6 +14 +9 -5
Medium Colossal 30ft/30ft +32 -4 +16 +14 -8
Large Colossal+ 40ft/40ft +40 -2 +20 +20 -15
Huge Colossal++ 60ft/60ft +48 same +24 +27 -30
Gargantuan Colossal+++ 80ft/80ft +56 same +28 +35 -60
Colossal Colossal++++ 100ft/100ft +64 same +32 +44 -120
Echoes of Deception
12-02-07, 06:37 AM What I really had in mind here was to create an "elder being" subtype, without being epic about it. Now, as far as defining Elder Being goes... I believe any creature, version of a creature or creature mutated by forces outside of the regular space/time continuum, and therefore outside the limits of known physical sanity, would qualify. Things like a hecatoncheires, beings such as Cthulhu or "his" more logical sister, whose name I cannot presently remember.

I suppose pre-historic isn't going far enough. An elder being would a thing that existed so "long ago", that it came into being before time could be perceived, and could be conceived to have falled into being after time can no longer be perceived, by that same token. I would think that something akin to alien mind would be intrinsic to these things... but what else would be?
Rohano
12-02-07, 09:05 PM I'd recommend a template, similar to paragon.
Elder Horror, Ancient Evil, or just Ancient or just Elder.
The template posted above can be used or you can make your own and gear it the way you like.
Whatever works best, though I'd recommend a template that can easily be applied to any creature you want.
Echoes of Deception
12-03-07, 12:15 AM Hm. Yeah, that might work best, now I think on it. I just don't want to see an Elder Being template that automatically makes something epic... or something similar to it.

Anyone out there good at "beings shaped by unknowable forces of the cosmos"?
ArochanoX
12-03-07, 01:54 AM Anyone out there good at "beings shaped by unknowable forces of the cosmos"?

Pseudonatural template (Complete Arcane)
Epic Pseudonatural template (Epic Level Handbook, also in SRD)
Paragon (Epic Level Handbook, also in SRD)
DvR 0 (Deities and Demigods, also in SRD)
Monster of Legend (Monster Manual 2)

These pop into my mind instantly.

I just don't want to see an Elder Being template that automatically makes something epic... or something similar to it.

So if +20 CR isn't good for you, you want lower CR adjustment. Note that these elder beings are "Elder beings. Creatures of such incredible age that their start seems to transcend time itself.", "That thing that is my fears that I have horrible nightmares about every now and then.", "I believe any creature, version of a creature or creature mutated by forces outside of the regular space/time continuum, and therefore outside the limits of known physical sanity, would qualify.", and "falled into being after time can no longer be perceived, by that same token.". And as for the examples you provided: "Things like a hecatoncheires, beings such as Cthulhu or "his" more logical sister" are all in epic or even godly proportions.

For me, elder almost must be an epic being. Why? Because how a lvl 1 human commoner (sorry for caricatyre and generalization) could be an elder creature - so powerful that even time-space continuum wraps around the commoner unless
1) the human commoner was outsider (outsiders are creatures of dreams and imaginations of material plane MotP and as outsiders, normal laws of physics don't touch them)
2) the human commoner was very old. Since all creatures normally age (with a few exceptions) they gain age categories and lose physical strenght. That's why the creature must, besides aging, grow. Growing also makes them bigger and badder and uglier, which is good for BBEG's :D and growing adds CR.
3) When time is distorted, it might give some special abilities like: frightful presence, unnatural aura etc etc. which also grant CR.

So in conclusion, if you want an Elder being be something scarier than a human commoner with 10 age categories (and all physical stats of 1's), it should be much more powerful than a normal creature of the same species. It should be near epic and near god-hood. Take abominations for comparsion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Echoes of Deception 11-29-07, 10:01 AM	Undead. Constructs. Abominations. Archons. Devils. Rilmani. All of the above have what the game calls creature traits. So do all other genres of creatures. Except for dire. But there's a genre out there that has not yet been classified. Many of we DMs love to play with games that include them, too. What are these things? Elder beings. Creatures of such incredible age that their start seems to transcend time itself. Things that this Lovecraft character apparently writes about. That thing that is my fears that I have horrible nightmares about every now and then. I'm not sure where the list starts or ends, but there's plenty more of these elder beings. So why am I rambling on about this? What could the point of this post possibly be? Is it nothing more than a manner for me to stave off the deathlike sleep that is sure to follow this astounding bout of insomnia with? Or could it be something less personal? Do I have a goal in mind that could benefit more than just myself? Or am I really just that selfish? Is it something different, have I just lot my nut? Is off my rocker a viable term for my bringing this up? When will I stop asking these silly questions? No, really? Now. The point here, is to create a list of traits for elder beings. A block that makes elder beings a genre of creature. One of those things that appears on crunch sheets like "archon traits" or "demon traits" or "abomination traits". But this one will be "elder being traits". Now, the reason for this post in the first place. I am really horrible at creating crunch of any kind. So, I leave the challenge up to those of you with the brass and stripes to make it happen. P.S. I usually find myself 'levitating' after that dream, because it is so horrifying that my body jumps into the air while laying down on my back, in my bed. In this way, I feel like I'm floating, covered in sweat, as I wake. Right before I hit the back of my head against the bedstead.
HernetheHunter 11-29-07, 10:35 AM	First step: Define more clearly what an "Elder Being" is. Some classify Elder beings as those that existed before recorded time began. Some as really old things, meaning either immortal like or remnants of a soon to be deceased race. In some writings the Aboleth are concidered Elder and in others certian Outsiders are. So, what type of Elder is being traited? And could this not be a template?
blackknightatbay 11-29-07, 10:39 AM	Your little monologue there sounds like the ones I often have in my own head, Echoes. I'm the last person you want statting out anything, but I like to think I would be good in "flavor country", so to speak. That being said, Lovecraft style beings all seem to share the universal trait of being so beyond the range and scope of human sciences and perceptions that, if one is lucky, looking at one will only drive you suicidally insane. The Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth game is pretty good at illustrating this type of effect, although it obviously does not kill you right away to look upon "what lives in the dark corners of the Earth."
seker 11-29-07, 01:23 PM	If you are looking for lovecraftian templates for the elder gods and such... they would already be under several existing types/subtypes, depending on the specific one involved. aberration outsider (likely obyrith subtype of demon) extraplanar and pseudonatural In fact several of them, Dagon comes to mind, already are listed as outsider (obyrith, extraplanar)
blackknightatbay 11-29-07, 02:46 PM	Another trait that comes to mind is the fact that lovecraft style beings are often described using words like "titanic" and "cyclopeon" and other such words. It isnt universal, but still common. It would make sense assuming that they continue to grow throughout their existance (even just the most minute amount of growth per year would add up to big, big fun). But that is also assuming that they are living beings like you and me, which is a bit of a leap in some cases.
JackSnape 11-29-07, 03:00 PM	It's not exactly what you're talking about (this is limited to humanoids) but seeing your message prompted me to finish up something I'd been working on. Thanks for prodding me. :) The Timeless Template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14457778#post14457778)
Artifact 11-29-07, 03:14 PM	You seem like a transcendental sorta guy, echoes :P; here's something that may be of interest: Check out Dragon Magazine #354 for an article by Hal Maclean called "Ancient PCs: Playing Elders in D&D". This excellent article discusses characters "old beyond ages" in detail. It gives several ancient backrounds (suggestions) for how your character achieved his or her status as an elder (such as "golden-ager", "throwback", "hand of prophecy" and so on). It also presents ancient spells and backround feats, as well as an optional (but recommended) extraordinary ability known as "Endless: A creature with this ability ceases to age once it achieves a certain point in its life cycle. It exists in a special kind of psysiological stasis, countering all the consequences of advancing years that usually lead to frailty and eventually death." If interested, back issues can be ordered from paizo.com (normally for cover price).
SaintedBerzerker 11-30-07, 01:11 PM	Are you trying to just stat out beings like cthulu? If so probably just an incredibly powerful outsider or abberition. I think the only thing that matters is that if it's an intelegent being would be rediculously high mental scores.
NobodyRemembersThis 12-01-07, 04:09 AM	Honestly? I'd look at the Chaos beast from MM I, advance the snot out of it, and tac on any spell like abilities you feel are necessary. Chaos beast and/or gibbering mouther are good places to start though. :)
ArgulFraster 12-01-07, 09:17 PM	I'd like an "elder being" type, it'd be good for the abberation-y outsiders.
SaintedBerzerker 12-02-07, 02:42 AM	Hmmmmmm: Elder Being subtype(Outsider or Aberition) Resistance to all energy 50+ Immortal: Elder beings do not suffer any negative effects from aging, magical or otherwise. For ever 100,000 years an Elder Being ages it gains a culmulative +1 bonus to it's Charisma score. Madness (su): Any being who percieves even the smallest part of an Elder Being must make a will save DC 1/2 the Elder Being's hit die plus Cha. Modifier or take 3d6 plus the Elder Being's Cha Modifier in Wis. Dammage. A creatur reduced to 0 Wis by this effect is driven mad and gains a + 10 to its attack and dammage rolls. Said creature attcks any and all living beings it can find until destroyed with the exception of the Elder Being.
ArochanoX 12-02-07, 06:07 AM	My proposal of an elder being template. Derived from titanic and paragon templates and some twist from other creatures. Creating an Elder Being "Elder" is a template that can be applied to any living, corporeal tiny-sized or larger creature (referred hereafter as the base creature). It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Tybe: Elder being's type changes to Outsider (recalculate all saves, BAB and skill points) Size: Increase 4 size categories (tiny to huge, small to gargantuan, medium to colossal, large to colossal+, huge to colossal++, gargantuan to colossal+++* and colossal to colossal++++*) Hit Dice: If the base creature had 0-5 HD, increase HD to 25 If the base creature had 6-10 HD, increase HD to 30 If the base creature had 11-15 HD, increase HD to 35 If the base creature had 16-20 HD, increase HD to 40 If the base creature had 21-30 HD, increase HD to 50 If the base creature had 31-40 HD, increase HD to 60 An elder being gains maximum number of hit points per hit die. Speed: Double the base creature's all movement speeds or use the listed speeds below, whichever is higher. New size: Speed: Huge 100ft (20 squares) Gargantuan 150ft (30 squares) Colossal 200ft (40 squares) Colossal+ 250ft (50 squares) Colossal++ 300ft (60 squares) Colossal+++ 350ft (70 squares) Colossal++++ 400ft (80 squares) AC: An elder creature's natural armor increases by size change, but it also gains a +10 insight bonus to AC and charisma bonus as a deflection bonus to AC. Attacks: An elder being reciseves a +20 Inherent bonus on all attack rolls and it adds its wisdom modifier as an Insight bonus on all attack rolls. Damage: Increase all elder being's damage values by 5 steps (1d6 to 6d6 etc) Face/Reach: Normal to the new size. Special attacks: An elder creature retains the specail attacks of the base creature and also gains the abilities and modifications described below. Recalculate all saves and effects according to new hit dice. Area Attacks: An elder creature's area attacks increase in size to gigantic proportions. Multiply the height, width, and length of the base creature's area attack by x6. This applies to all extraordinary and supernatural special attacks. Increased Damage: Damage from a special attack other than poison or trample is tripled, if the attack deals hit point damage. This applies to all extraordinary and supernatural special attacks. Better Spell-like abilities: If an elder creature had spell-like abilities, increase the caster level by 20 and apply enhance spell metamagic feat to each of the spell like abilities two times. Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will: Quickened Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Heal. 3/day: Wish, Miracle Frightful Presence (Ex): An elder being inspires terror with its magnificent size, unnatural shape and otherworldy aura. All creatures within 1000 ft of the elder being that have fewer HD than the elder being must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + ½ Elder being's Hit Dice + Elder Being's charisma modifier) or become shaken. A successful save leaves that opponent immune to that elder being's frightful presence for 24 hours. Unnatural Aura (Su): Reality continually reshapes itself around an elder being. This grants an elder being a 75% concealment (elder being can't hide into this concealment), and all creature's within 100ft of the elder being must suceed a will save (DC 20 + ½ elder being's HD) each round or take 1d6 points of wisdom damage and a Fort save (DC 20 + ½ elder being's HD) and take 1d4 strenght, dexterity and constituion damage as the reality reshapes the creatures near the elder being it. Knowledgeable (Ex): An elder creature is treated having a number of ranks equal to its HD in all knowledge skills. So a 60 HD elder being has 60 ranks in all knowledge skills. Special Qualities: Same as the base creature and the following: Damage Reduction: 15 / Epic and good Regeneration 30: Elder being's regenration ability cannot be overcome. The only way to keep an elder being destroyed is to wish or miracle the creature 2 times in a row, when it is helpless. Spell resistance: new CR + 14 Immune to: fear, polymorphing, mind-affecting and necromancy spells and effects. Energy resistance: Fire resistance 20, Cold resistance 10, Electricity resistance 10, Acid resistance 10. Saves: An Elder creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all saving throws. Abilities: Physical abilities change by size increases, but the elder creature also gains following bonuses: +4 Con, +18 Int, +16 Wis, +20 Cha. And a +5 insight bonus on all ability scores. Skills: Typical for an outsider of the same HD. Feats: Typical for a creature of the same HD. An elder creature can take epic feats after it has atleast 20 hit dice. CR: +20ish Size change table Original New Face/ Statistic Increases AC/ Size: Size: Reach: Str Dex Con NA Attack Tiny Huge 15ft/15ft +24 -8 +10 +5 -4 Small Gargantuan 20ft/20ft +28 -6 +14 +9 -5 Medium Colossal 30ft/30ft +32 -4 +16 +14 -8 Large Colossal+ 40ft/40ft +40 -2 +20 +20 -15 Huge Colossal++ 60ft/60ft +48 same +24 +27 -30 Gargantuan Colossal+++ 80ft/80ft +56 same +28 +35 -60 Colossal Colossal++++ 100ft/100ft +64 same +32 +44 -120
Echoes of Deception 12-02-07, 06:37 AM	What I really had in mind here was to create an "elder being" subtype, without being epic about it. Now, as far as defining Elder Being goes... I believe any creature, version of a creature or creature mutated by forces outside of the regular space/time continuum, and therefore outside the limits of known physical sanity, would qualify. Things like a hecatoncheires, beings such as Cthulhu or "his" more logical sister, whose name I cannot presently remember. I suppose pre-historic isn't going far enough. An elder being would a thing that existed so "long ago", that it came into being before time could be perceived, and could be conceived to have falled into being after time can no longer be perceived, by that same token. I would think that something akin to alien mind would be intrinsic to these things... but what else would be?
Rohano 12-02-07, 09:05 PM	I'd recommend a template, similar to paragon. Elder Horror, Ancient Evil, or just Ancient or just Elder. The template posted above can be used or you can make your own and gear it the way you like. Whatever works best, though I'd recommend a template that can easily be applied to any creature you want.
Echoes of Deception 12-03-07, 12:15 AM	Hm. Yeah, that might work best, now I think on it. I just don't want to see an Elder Being template that automatically makes something epic... or something similar to it. Anyone out there good at "beings shaped by unknowable forces of the cosmos"?
ArochanoX 12-03-07, 01:54 AM	Anyone out there good at "beings shaped by unknowable forces of the cosmos"? Pseudonatural template (Complete Arcane) Epic Pseudonatural template (Epic Level Handbook, also in SRD) Paragon (Epic Level Handbook, also in SRD) DvR 0 (Deities and Demigods, also in SRD) Monster of Legend (Monster Manual 2) These pop into my mind instantly. I just don't want to see an Elder Being template that automatically makes something epic... or something similar to it. So if +20 CR isn't good for you, you want lower CR adjustment. Note that these elder beings are "Elder beings. Creatures of such incredible age that their start seems to transcend time itself.", "That thing that is my fears that I have horrible nightmares about every now and then.", "I believe any creature, version of a creature or creature mutated by forces outside of the regular space/time continuum, and therefore outside the limits of known physical sanity, would qualify.", and "falled into being after time can no longer be perceived, by that same token.". And as for the examples you provided: "Things like a hecatoncheires, beings such as Cthulhu or "his" more logical sister" are all in epic or even godly proportions. For me, elder almost must be an epic being. Why? Because how a lvl 1 human commoner (sorry for caricatyre and generalization) could be an elder creature - so powerful that even time-space continuum wraps around the commoner unless 1) the human commoner was outsider (outsiders are creatures of dreams and imaginations of material plane MotP and as outsiders, normal laws of physics don't touch them) 2) the human commoner was very old. Since all creatures normally age (with a few exceptions) they gain age categories and lose physical strenght. That's why the creature must, besides aging, grow. Growing also makes them bigger and badder and uglier, which is good for BBEG's :D and growing adds CR. 3) When time is distorted, it might give some special abilities like: frightful presence, unnatural aura etc etc. which also grant CR. So in conclusion, if you want an Elder being be something scarier than a human commoner with 10 age categories (and all physical stats of 1's), it should be much more powerful than a normal creature of the same species. It should be near epic and near god-hood. Take abominations for comparsion.