Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grayson 01-31-04, 02:19 AM	Looking at the Elementals in the 3.5 MM, it seems like they are way, way, way under-CR'd. 24d8+120hp... 2 slam attacks, at +27 (2d10+11, 19-20) And it's got Power Attack (BAB of +18) So at +9 on the dice to attack, it's doing 31-49 damage. That's a dead fighter in three hits, maybe two. And lord help him if the elemental scores a crit (10% chance). And CR 11? :confused:
cwslyclgh 01-31-04, 03:08 AM	try play testing it andd come up with your own discision... me I have found the CR's of the elder elementals fine.
Grayson 01-31-04, 03:41 AM	Hrm, there's one vote for "The writer wasn't on crack" My group is 6 8th/9th level players, so I put their standard CR at 9 or 10 (I don't mind weaker 11 stuff, and bosses go up to 12 at this point) I'll try the Large fire to test it out. Those are only CR7, and don't have the ungodly Slam attack of the Earthies. Still seems pretty lowballed though, heh. (16hd for 7CR)
Blasphemus 01-31-04, 05:35 AM	As near as I can tell, HD only accounts for about 1/2 or so of most creatures' CR. So, when you have a creature like the elementals (the majority of their challenge being their high HD), you come across a high HD-low CR situation. Basically, elementals are just big bags of HP that might pop your skull if you not careful in the time it takes you to drop it. A time consuming challenge? Yes. Too difficult for an 11th level party? Probably not.
blue_eyed_paladin 01-31-04, 06:13 AM	They may not be that challenging, but you're certainly going to use up a lot of hp and spells just blasting them into driveway-gravel. Plus, they have no treasure, so it's a difficult combat encounter for very little XP (relatively) and *no* treasure. I have a lvl 13 party...we ran into a Greater Earth Elemental and it whupped our butts. Then you get adventures where they just have... [Room 24. Temple Altar room (EL 11) Monsters: Elder Earth Elemental Treasure: None Room 25: Temple Main Chamber (EL 11) Monsters: Elder Fire Elemental Treasure: None] :confused: Or even worse...the level 18 Dungeon adventure, about killing the Githyanki Lich-Queen....there are 4 or 5 rooms in one wing of her palace with 'Elder Blackfire Elementals'...elder fire elementals with +1 CR that do 2d6 negative levels per slam attack. How's That work??? By some wierd game mechanic (like that one where Dragons are low CR for their challenge but lots of treasure), Elementals have low CR for their HD and actual difficulty.
DM Zoc 01-31-04, 06:17 AM	Am I missing something? Without ever having seen one of these things in play, I would think that it's a really big, really tough thing that will absolutely destroy you in melee combat, but can't deal with a bunch of people who consistently keep out of reach. By Level 11, I would expect that everyone has at least boots of levitation, if not a better way of playing "keep away."
Count Arioch the 28th 01-31-04, 07:48 AM	Here is my opinion on earth elementals: 1. Their dominion only extands as far as their arms can reach. (i.e., they have no form of ranged attacks.) 2. They're not particularly swift creatures, only 30 feet, I'm sure the party wizard has expeditious retreat or fly somewhere. 3. They cannot fly. 4. They're not that smart. They have an int of 10, which would indicate some form of tactics, but they probably aren't as smart as most of the PCs.