Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 12:24 AM	Okay, for reference, this is something I recently used as a DM (as a cutscene style event, for about a minute), seriously scaring the players, right before another villain popped up and used an artifact to command the lot of em. Second, for those of you who have no idea what a forgewraith is, here's the link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105b&page=6). Now that that's out of the way, notice the create spawn bit? Yeah, ultra quick at 1d4 rounds, and there seems to be no way to prevent it. Additionally, they can cast fireball once per day. Now, slip one in a city, and cast fireball at some random commoners, 10d6 will undoubtedly kill a 1st level commoner, even if they make their save, it's atleast 5 damage, and likelyhood is, it would even kill low-level PCs (3~4 ish). Anyone who gets whacked becomes a forgewraith pretty quickly, no questions asked. The spawn can also cast fireball, and they can all fly up to the top of tall buildings. Being incorporeal, the average person can't even scratch em, and they heal themselves with dex drain. Also because of incorporeality, they can fly through walls, so there's no escaping them. Additionally, their touch attack or ray alone is enough to whack the average townsperson. So...end of the world from a CR 9 critter, regardless of campaign setting. Even elminster/the simbul/a god of your choice can't take thousands, ten thousands, or millions of these (depending on how many towns/cities/villages you knock over), and they can fly, so there's no escape. heck, being undead, these guys can fly through space, so you could even kiss spelljammer goodbye. Thoughts?
Soahc 07-05-07, 12:50 AM	Umm well this is bizarre, good find I guess. The only way I can think of removing this is killing the first one and it will be a domino effect of incorpreal removal.
kalstrand 07-05-07, 12:55 AM	I'm thinking Radiant Servant of Pelor built toward turning would clean house quite well assuming you can reflavor the PrC to fit in Eberron or you adapt the Forgewraith to another setting. Even if the RSoP isn't an option a cleric optimized for turning should be able to wipe them out quite easily. I don't have the link but see the turning contest in the optimization challenges for what can be done with a cleric focused on turning.
KingGolem 07-05-07, 01:09 AM	Hmm, 1d4 rounds is rediculously fast. This would definitely bring the world to its knees. If I ever wanted to use this monster in my campaign, I'd change the spawning time to 1d4 days and give some way to stop it, like a break enchantment, remove curse, or dispel magic spell. That ought to remove the whole apocalypse thing. By the way, it would take them a really long time to destroy a spelljammer campaign, what with their 60ft per round flight speed. If my calculations are correct, it would take about 700 days to reach the moon at that speed (Earth to Earth's moon).
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 01:44 AM	Yeah, I'm aware of the fixes and that they are needed, just saying what can be done:D . Also, if you kill the first one, big deal, there's still loads left, except that some of them are now free-willed. As for turning, I'll look into it, but can the clerics in the world (those of appropriate strength) band together and knock out literally a few million forgewraiths before they run out of turning attempts? I think not, but knowing the CO boards, I will take a look at it later.
TheCobra 07-05-07, 01:47 AM	Well, as long as the epic folks are keeping an eye on things, they can always teleport in and take out the forgewraiths before they reach critical mass. By the way, energy immunity + life's grace makes a character completely immune to attacks from forgewraiths. The epic characters aren't going to die.
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 01:51 AM	Aw come on, bringing gods into the equation is never fair:P . Anyway, in somewhere like sharn, it would take...what? About 20~30 minutes to reach hundreds of thousands in numbers, shortly before the whole place is annihilated, and our little burning zombocalypse moves on to greener pastures. Ah, see, I was never any good at leafing through big spell lists. Good point there... On another note, forgewraiths are also completely immune to eachother, and can heal themselves with enervation.
Infinitum 07-05-07, 02:26 AM	You could also be an epic level Conjurer and Gate in a Shadow of the Void (using Enduring Gate from the Cosmic Descryer epic prestige class to make it last a few days under your complete command). It can create spawn in 1d4 rounds, and Winterwights can spread Blackfire too :) The only problem is the spawn can't make more spawn, but that's about it. I know you're talking about a CR9 critter, and it is amazing truly. I'm just pointing out another of many opportunities (which in turn make Conjuration my favorite school of magic :) )
TheCobra 07-05-07, 02:41 AM	It wouldn't even take an epic party to destroy vast numbers of these things. Just throw the two spells mentioned above on fighter, warlock, or whatever.
Ront Iron-Roar 07-05-07, 03:36 AM	I remember a thread similar to this popping up in the Eberron forums. But, anyways the problem is solved rather easily. Forgewraiths are created from the soul or souls of people who died horribly in a fire related death. Forgewraiths like ghosts tend to haunt the places where they died and never venture any farther. So what's the likely hood a bunch of commoners are going to venture down into a burned up building, a volcano, or an ancient forge? The reason why Forgewraiths don't take over is because thier habits tend not to promote very much options for expansion. So most Forgewraiths who kill spawn other Forgewraiths who stick near they place of thier death. Sure you can increase thier range by a little bit...but it's not much.
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 04:06 AM	Good points ront. It worked in my campaign due to some fluff changes, but in practice, it wouldn't happen, just sayin' it could. And yes, you got me, two spells would blow my stupid rediscovery out of the water, but it won't make me any less happy:P . Also...winter wight? Cosmic descryer? Shadow of the Void? Wha? ...sorry, I don't own that many splatbooks, though I suspect the monsters you mentioned are simply Epic/SRD. Oh, and thanks for the compliment, but as ront said, but it popped up on the eberorn forums. (never checked it, so I wouldn't know)
Soahc 07-05-07, 07:22 AM	in the first post when you used link to send us to the link, how did you do that, I can only do it using the "url's", what other code is needed to label your link
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 07:26 AM	Click on insert link when posting (under the white smilie) while you have the bit you want to turn into a link highlighted. It'll make a little window, which you paste the address into. Click okay, and your link is made.
Mirtek 07-05-07, 02:03 PM	Now that that's out of the way, notice the create spawn bit? Yeah, ultra quick at 1d4 rounds, and there seems to be no way to prevent it.Hmm, 1d4 rounds is rediculously fast. No, not really. Basically every spawn-creating undead was changed to such an ultra-fast level, so instead of being ultra-fast it's merely the normal time frame. Yes, 3.xe spawn rules would doom any world I know you're talking about a CR9 critter, and it is amazing truly. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) is a CR 3 critter that can do the same.
TheCobra 07-05-07, 02:16 PM	Yes, 3.xe spawn rules would doom any world Only the peasants. It's easy to become completely immune to shadows.
gullas 07-05-07, 02:18 PM	or , you could allways "try" to let an epic lvl half orc barbarian at it:P
peteyrock 07-05-07, 02:23 PM	Yet, another reason for me to stay away from Eberron stuff.
Mirtek 07-05-07, 03:30 PM	Yet, another reason for me to stay away from Eberron stuff. It's not Eberron stuff, creating spawn in 1d4 rounds is Core D&D stuff for critters as low as CR 3
kentonblack 07-05-07, 07:40 PM	wow, i REALLY wish that the damnable thing had been specified to make spawn when the foes are slain by a specific attack, or maybe even say, give a hitdie restriction on what could become a forgewraith....or that the damnable things DIDNT have create spawn.
Babzidu 07-05-07, 10:54 PM	A good way to remove the 'habits' problem is just have some high-level necromancer come in with command undead and command the original one into producing a lot of spawn. A high-charisma sorcerer could control an army of undead flame-ghosts pretty quickly, just by controlling the source. (And renewing the spell daily, of course.)
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 11:24 PM	Yup, that's similar to what I did. The original was commanded to just blow up and ghostify as much of the city as possible, a project whichlasted for about a minute, and would have taken another minute and a half, except that someone else intervened at that point, and commanded the source before walking away with a free army. And yes, I'm aware of shadows, but a lot of things are immune to shadows, and it would take the typical shadow two or three rounds, perhaps even four if they're unlucky, to kill the average commoner, which is kinda inefficient.
OneWinged4ngel 07-06-07, 01:42 AM	Yet, another reason for me to stay away from Eberron stuff. If that's your logic, stay away from D&D too... core monsters can do the same thing. :rolleyes: And seriously, you're talking about a technicality about a fairly obscure, uncommon monster in a supplement for Eberron. You'd get more mileage out of saying "I'll avoid Forgotten Realms because of the Cleric of Mystara or Persistent Spell." And it would STILL be stupid reasoning. :rolleyes:
Ketone 07-06-07, 02:00 AM	I think it's great that they have challenges like this. If people don't like it, it's easy to fix or simply not use. But it would make a great scenario or adventure hook for a high level party.
cog_n_taz 07-06-07, 02:01 AM	Good point, I managed to miss that post. Still, best to keep our opinions to ourselves, and avoid any fights here, aye? Also, why is it uncommon? Forgewraiths are awesome monsters, I can't believe more DMs don't use them, myself. And yes, it makes a great and truly horrifying hook for an adventure, believe you me. If you don't want it this way, than yes, it's spectacularly easy to fix in a number of ways. Also, OW4, a friend of mine is using your paladin class, so I took a look at it, nice work!
Infinitum 07-06-07, 02:01 AM	I think I'm gonna be the rabid conjurer that actually does this the next game I'm in....:D
cog_n_taz 07-06-07, 02:05 AM	First of all, this sure is quite a wad of posts in the space of 15 minutes. Second, never, ever do this unless you are the DM. If you are, keep a lid on it somehow, or be hammergunned. (trust me, I am saying this as a DM) If you do this as a player, well... brokenness and such aside, where's the fun in that?
Polop 07-06-07, 02:05 AM	bah... A Shadow enters a city by night, slaughters a few rats, they rise as shadow rats, and rise to take over a town as a shadow rat swarm( or as huge numbers of individuals), The shadow moves on to the next town with its hoard of rats, people, and other beasts of burden like sheep, cows, horses, chickens, cat, lizards, bears they came across in a forest, a pack of wolves they rolled over in their den as they blindly made their way along their country side... takes a bit more time but... undead have lot's of time.
cog_n_taz 07-06-07, 02:08 AM	bleep! "post frequency has reached critical mass" Joking aside, the forgewraith can one-up that. Simply fireball a termite mound. Funnily enough, they will all rise as medium sized humanoid forgewraiths, butthen again, D&D never made much sense anyway.
Archangel62 07-06-07, 02:37 AM	bleep! "post frequency has reached critical mass" Joking aside, the forgewraith can one-up that. Simply fireball a termite mound. Funnily enough, they will all rise as medium sized humanoid forgewraiths, butthen again, D&D never made much sense anyway. I can see it now, Necromancer: Minion, have you dealt with the infestation problem Minion: Sort of sir... Necromancer: What do you mean 'Sort of?' Minion: Well, the good news is that we have no more termites, ants, or any other insect within the fortress and also we've managed to rid ourselves of several annoying salesmen. Necromancer: And the bad news? Minion: I sorta used the Forgewraith to do it....
Ront Iron-Roar 07-06-07, 04:33 AM	Yet, another reason for me to stay away from Eberron stuff. To be completely honest with you most of the Urban Eberron monsters introduced in Sharn: City of Towers were brought over from the D20 Modern Menace Manual.
cog_n_taz 07-06-07, 05:05 AM	While I have no idea what that book is, whoever brought them in made a good choice, those monsters are awesome. But we're getting off-topic now, better fix that...
Leo 07-08-07, 12:59 PM	That's a nasty monster. DM:Ok, you're standing in the town sqaure, when out of the sewers comes out a flaming zombie who shoots a fireball over you. 18 commoners are caught in the blast fire and automatically imolated...
Sarlax 07-09-07, 01:06 AM	The forgewraith is just a little faster at doing what the shadow, wraith, and spectres do. While shadow swarms don't necessarily frighten PCs after a point, there's no good way to stop a mass of them. One wraith goes into a town. It probably kills most people with a touch (Commoner 1 with Con 10 has 2 or 3 HP; no chance against 1d4 + 1d6 Con drain) and turns them into wraiths in an average of 15 seconds. A family of 4 is gone in 4 rounds (24 seconds) and you've quintupled the number of wraiths in no more than 48 seconds. If a wraith retains any of its memories, such a horde can cleanse a town in minutes by recalling the location of every other humanoid. If they remember nothing whatsoever, it'll only take a few minutes more as they fly into every building to hunt. Not only do they multiple at an irresistible speed, but they also transform into being of extraordinary capability:Str Ø, Dex 16, Con Ø, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15, Diplomacy +6, Hide +11, Intimidate +10, Listen +12, Search +10, Sense Motive +8, Spot +12, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks) with Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative. Even if they can't find refugees instantly, they can hunt them expertly (survival and search), interrogate survivors (intimidate and sense motive), gain the help of other monsters (diplomacy), etc. They're also much more intelligent than humans with a +4 racial modifier. Unfortunately, the behavior of wraiths seems to support this kind of activity. They hate all living things and are perfectly organized (spawn hierarchy and Lawful Evil alignment). It's easy to say that a cleric or wizard could take control of the original, but how can they possible figure out who is in charge? There's no way to track a spawn master and no limit on control. Being very intelligent, the first wraith will simply convert an arbitrary number of commoners into wraiths in a few minutes - let's say 20. He then tells these spawn to pair up and travel in 10 random and different directions, creating spawn from any creatures they encounter along the way and giving similar orders to their own spawn ad infinitum. He likewise instructs his spawn (and grandspawn, etc.) to go into hiding once they have created and instructed 20 spawn of their own. The master then hides in some remotes crypt. What happens? Total annihilation of humanoids. Whenever the wraiths encounter a new town they clean it out in minutes. Cities might take a little longer. The original spawn in each community end up sinking into the earth to hide while the younger wraiths scatter to keep up the good fight. Necromancers can't stop this process because they can't track down the first wraith. They might rebuke a random wraith from horde and make him identify his creator, but this individual is probably in another city. After even a couple hours, let alone days, the chain of command will be so convoluted that tracking it will be very difficult and probably deadly (it's easy to deal with a couple wraiths, perhaps, but what do you do with the hundred wraiths who lurk under town they've hollowed out?). Worse, so what if you capture the big bad boss? He has scattered his spawn across the world and can't recall them to give them orders. Destroying the master is also no good, since his spawn are all just like him and will see the merit in the orders he originally gave. Once the wraiths have turned every humanoid, they'll get to work on the other creatures - mice, beholders, trees, hydras, butterflies, and dragons. In short order, they'll destroy every last living thing. In general, this process cannot be stopped - wraiths are gray goo. One might argue that their Daylight Powerlessness will put an end to this, but it actually only slows it down a tiny bit. Being incorporeal, they can fly just under the surface of the ground during the day. Shadows create spawn the same way and they aren't even vulnerable to sunlight (they'll just be less intelligent about their holocaust). No core spell effect can end this process. No class can end it once it's begun. There are a few ways to deal with it, though. You can migrate to Elysium or Ysgard (minor positive dominant trait). You can live deep underground (incorporeal creatures can't pass through objects larger than their space, so more than 5 feet of dirt prevents them from getting you). There are some ways to hide, but this process can't be stopped. Even the creatures that they can't kill (some outsiders, powerful dragons, hero classed people) will be destroyed indirectly through the end up the ecosystem and economy. Dragons won't have commoners or cattle to feed upon. No more brains for illithids. No one making little ivory statues for wizards, etc. Even the gods will with away in worlds where they need worshippers.
Thugorp 07-09-07, 11:41 AM	again sorry
Thugorp 07-09-07, 11:42 AM	sorry tripple poast
Thugorp 07-09-07, 11:43 AM	never mind
Thugorp 07-09-07, 11:56 AM	bleep! "post frequency has reached critical mass" Joking aside, the forgewraith can one-up that. Simply fireball a termite mound. Funnily enough, they will all rise as medium sized humanoid forgewraiths, butthen again, D&D never made much sense anyway. actually the monster entry sposifically says only humanoids rise as new forgewaith spawn.